Why UFC fighters don't use WCK

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

I am often asked (usually by my wife): If WCK is so great - why don’t ANY of the UFC fighters use it? After all, if it was an effective sytle/system - why isn’t has’nt the UFC/MMA world discovered it or evolved into it?

My answer (and only my opinion) is that WCK is the UFC/MMA “for the rest of us.” That is, I am in no condition to fight UFC/MMA. At 39, I am too old. Since I work all day, instead of train, my conditioning is not what it needs to be to fight. So for me, combat training is about mastering general principles - like, chin down, elbows in, control the center, try to stay in trapping range (not too close, not too far), don’t move backwards, and other WCK maxim, etc. I believe in the WCK concepts of trapping range, elbow power, WCK body structure. If I end up on the ground, I would fight like hell to get off the ground using whatever I can (biting, fishing hooking, eye gouges, etc) (and break what I can while I am down there) - or hope a bouncer, friend, or stranger pulls the guy off me. I also train because I like the challenges of hard sparring in all ranges.

I do not train on the ground for several reasons: (1) no time; and (2) I have grappled with enough “grapplers” to feel comfortable that they do not have too much of an advantge over me. In other words, I prevail about 40-50 of the time given approximately equal size and strength. By “prevail” I mean I can avoid getting submitted or pounded, or I can get back up. Maybe training grappling would increase that to 50%+, but at what cost? On the other hand, training in WCK improves my stand-up significantly.

I am interested in other opinions to this question. (MMA trolls - please allow the WCK people to discuss this issue.)

2

[QUOTE=nschmelzer;818795]I am often asked (usually by my wife): If WCK is so great - why don’t ANY of the UFC fighters use it? After all, if it was an effective sytle/system - why isn’t has’nt the UFC/MMA world discovered it or evolved into it?
[/QUOTE]

I know, I know… Huh, They might get their butt kicked? :);):smiley:

Ali Rahim.

3

Theres more VT in the UFC than people know….the tactcal idea is attacking in aggresivley for a purpose of dominating the encounters duration with offense, but HOW …is the hard part …your fghting highly trained guys who arent stupid bulls so you have to be a bullfighter…the VT system is teaching how to deliver this and techniques to back up the thinking ..done in raw form we see what methods work better than others …defend more or attack more …whats a better percentage payback ?..we use strightlines to attack infront of us because we are going in at people using kicks to reach what a punch wont and not disrupt the forward flow with a round kick that might miss and leave our attack line stopped or round punch that isnt bad its just not feeding the forward attack as directly and if it misses what then ?..guys who throw a well timed x ko to a jaw …finish ..they may not have an elbow idea or say i do VT but vt is trying to teach the exact mechanics and timing so its not a fluke or a lucky punch but the reason …its the concept in action, no lables attached /school shirts or / names …attack ? whats the best way to improve my attack ? how can i train to maintainy balance without giving upper body to counters? how do i deliver force from my arms without a winding up swing ? what if they try to strike me as I m attacking ? do i stop and let them attack me for a while :smiley:

some see , some dont, some look for a way to use shapes for training, rather than use the shapes to develop an idea for attacking …correctly.

4

In essence I believe that the UFC/MMA guys can’t afford to take the time to learn what WC has to teach them. They have other methods at their disposal, that can produce similar result and that blend in better with the other facets of their MA training.

Regarding grappling, take a look at the recent loss of Alexander Houston, a pro MMA fighter, with MT and wrestling background, with two fights under his belt both won by KO. He lost to a grappler, and made some fundamental mistakes from what was said by the technical expert commentators. Things happen in a fight, and like you said, for us regular folk, it is near impossible to train in all things, all the time, and deal with the consequences of that (injuries, always workin out, training schedules, etc..). Plus IMO, ground grappling, once that range is secured, is easier to apply (unless of course your opponent is of equal skill), than stand up fighting. On the ground your mobility is lost, your ability to use your weight & leverage is lost as well as your limbs have a limited usage. Compare this to stand up fighting, where the other guy has no restrictions (unless you restrict him with what you do, but this is never as complete as when you are on the ground, since the ground itself is your ally) to the majority of his tools, and can always use distance (in the ring anyways) as a defence.

James

5

Some answers

  1. Most wing chun is rubbish - unrealistic and wouldnt work for real…

e.g. this nonsense - look at how ‘landing’ a slap is more important than power and positioning

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KyqmiV58o_8

  1. Often no real power in strikes…no use of Body power (like boxers use)…mainly arm strikes (see above)

  2. training in WC features too many cooperative drills and or chi sau and too little hard sparring

  3. Any striking art needs to be trained with grappling to be effective in MMA

  4. Boxing/Muay Thai are much more plug and play…A few basic tools (Although not saying they cant be sophisticated at higher levels) then hours of live training - to sharpen distance, timing, angulation etc. (all things chi sau doesnt give) Plus they dont have the power production problem most wing chun has.

6

[QUOTE=nschmelzer;818795]

My answer (and only my opinion) is that WCK is the UFC/MMA “for the rest of us.” That is, I am in no condition to fight UFC/MMA. At 39, I am too old. Since I work all day, instead of train, my conditioning is not what it needs to be to fight. [/QUOTE]

Nonsense. My MMA coach is 64.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=doMMfE38h24&feature=related

Look at Kyle Maynard

He doesnt let his limitations stop him

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J5R75GGUovg

Those sound like excuses not to train…not reasons

7

[QUOTE=k gledhill;818803]Theres more VT in the UFC than people know….the tactcal idea is attacking in aggresivley for a purpose of dominating the encounters duration with offense, but HOW …is the hard part …your fghting highly trained guys who arent stupid bulls so you have to be a bullfighter…the VT system is teaching how to deliver this and techniques to back up the thinking ..done in raw form we see what methods work better than others …defend more or attack more …whats a better percentage payback ?..we use strightlines to attack infront of us because we are going in at people using kicks to reach what a punch wont and not disrupt the forward flow with a round kick that might miss and leave our attack line stopped or round punch that isnt bad its just not feeding the forward attack as directly and if it misses what then ?..guys who throw a well timed x ko to a jaw …finish ..they may not have an elbow idea or say i do VT but vt is trying to teach the exact mechanics and timing so its not a fluke or a lucky punch but the reason …its the concept in action, no lables attached /school shirts or / names …attack ? whats the best way to improve my attack ? how can i train to maintainy balance without giving upper body to counters? how do i deliver force from my arms without a winding up swing ? what if they try to strike me as I m attacking ? do i stop and let them attack me for a while :smiley:

some see , some dont, some look for a way to use shapes for training, rather than use the shapes to develop an idea for attacking …correctly.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, especially the last sentence, the shape is an IDEA not a specific action and something to be SEEN in a fight. Whether or not my palm is up, down, sideways or whatever, I can use tan concept (to spread) in all sorts of shapes. Technique minded people see shapes, those with better imaginations see it in all kinds of places. My footwork can have tan concept in it, but I am using my legs and body to do it. One thing is we still use chinese language to describe it. Some see chinese and right off the bat think it is hookie.

Gotta run…

J

8

[QUOTE=nschmelzer;818795] If I end up on the ground, I would fight like hell to get off the ground using whatever I can (biting, fishing hooking, eye gouges, etc) (and break what I can while I am down there) - or hope a bouncer, friend, or stranger pulls the guy off me.
[/QUOTE]

Or you could learn a technical escape based on leverage and positioning that doesnt involve trying to maim your assailant and which will in any event probably a) not work and b) really p i s s him off and make him want to escalate to something worse

Look if Helio Gracie can do it at 90 plus anyone can

9

chisao seung ma toi madrills deal with this angling and delivering force in the time of motion in on us as we angle offline to fdevelop the structured ‘right x toa jaw’ …seen as wrist sticking it will never evolve but to be a better sticker , not a better striker …:smiley:

10

[QUOTE=Nick Forrer;818810]Nonsense. My MMA coach is 64.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=doMMfE38h24&feature=related

Look at Kyle Maynard

He doesnt let his limitations stop him

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J5R75GGUovg

Those sound like excuses not to train…not reasons[/QUOTE]

I think nschmelzer was talking about the fact that at 39 and to start train in MMA might be too late, where as Morris has been doing it or something similar for decades now, a bit different to start something new, as compared to doing something for decades and keeping it going. I could be wrong though:)

I think Nick is right though, it is never to late to maybe try something out, just that you may have to watch that you don’t maim or kill yourself in the process. For me, I hit the bag three times a week, and the weights another 3 x a week, plus WC trainging and teaching, that is good enough for me, never mind the guys here at the local MMA gym doin 8 to 13 workouts a week, that’s not for me and I don’t love it that much, lol.

James

11

[QUOTE=sihing;818815]I think nschmelzer was talking about the fact that at 39 and to start train in MMA might be too late, where as Morris has been doing it or something similar for decades now, a bit different to start something new, as compared to doing something for decades and keeping it going. I could be wrong though:)
[/QUOTE]

The idea that your physical life is over at 39 is absurd. I used to train with a guy who had one leg…and he was in his 40s…and he had only been doing it for a few years.

I think you guys think MMA training is somehow life threatening. :rolleyes:Its like swimming - you dont throw someone in at the deep end who cant swim. You start them in the shallow end and work up progressively.

12

I know this will start a fire

Hello,

MMA/UFC is a sport and does not translate to combat, I know a lot of people will not agree with this but hey, consider this: In a combat situation one person will most likley be facing multiple assailants often armed. When is the last time you saw a MMA\UFC fighter do this :wink:

There is a big difference between MMA\UFC fighting and street combat, despite what some others have to say about it. While there is nothing wrong with being in excellent physical condition, most people who train in an art for self defence have neither the time nor the inclination to condition at the elite level. Also, most people who train for street combat are looking for the bascis which will enable them to survive. They are not looking to win a belt or the like.

Having watched a UFC match this weekend I will say I was not impressed by what I saw. I mean, honestly, if I can spend 5 minutes or more rolling around on the ground trying to make my opponent submit then I will be quite happy. Unfortunately, in a REAL fight if it takes me more than a few seconds or maybe a minute tops to stop my opponent then I am in trouble, especially if he brought along a few friends.

As to the question posed: IMHO, most MMA\UFC fighters do not learn to use WCK because the goal in these situations seems to be lets go to the ground and roll around for upwards of 6 minutes where I can wear you down so you finally submit. Seems to me such fights are less about skill and more about attrition.

Lets the flames begin :smiley:

13

[QUOTE=Nick Forrer;818816]The idea that your physical life is over at 39 is absurd. I used to train with a guy who had one leg…and he was in his 40s…and he had only been doing it for a few years.

I think you guys think MMA training is somehow life threatening. :rolleyes:Its like swimming - you dont throw someone in at the deep end who cant swim. You start them in the shallow end and work up progressively.[/QUOTE]

I’m turning 39 tomorrow, and I feel in better shape now than ever before, but the recovery time is not as good. So for me life is not over, lol. But I’d rather use my mind and efficiency more in a fight than to let my attributes (however good or bad they are) be the deciding factor. Fighting always involves your body, and the better conditioned it is the better it will perform, no disputing that. Just that to me, I see the MMA guys relying more on that than the skill of fighting at times. Ali had better skills than most of his opponents, that why we remember him, but he had to be in shape to box with them of course.

James

14

It’s True…

I am glad someone has started this thread. Personally, I do not practice the art of Wing Tsun, but I respect its effectiveness and do plan to practice it in the future. (I have been practicing my main martial art for several years, and wish to get a very good grasp of it before I move on or add anything else).

First let me start by saying that I have trained with UFC fighters before, and have MUCH respect for what they do. The ones that get to the top are very tough guys, and can whip most.

However, I have run into traditional Martial Artists that are absolutely devastating in their art, and they don’t get the respect they are due.

I truly think that MMA is one sided because everyone sees it out there on a regular. I think that it is effective, but it’s not the be all to end all.

People were using Wing Tsun, Karate, Muy Thai and other deadly Martial arts in death fights long before the sanctioned MMA fights in UFC. Also, people forget, that in the beginning, the UFC was mostly traditional, and was far more no-holds bar. During that time, you were more apt to see how effective certain styles were against one another.

Now, since more rules have been added, you seel less traditional martial artist, and more martial artist, who are trained to fight in a way that meets the standards an rules of the UFC. People seem to forget this when they are watching it.

I have worked with and seen many incredible martial artist from all walks of the life, and I think that it is foolish for anyone to down one martial art over another. A person who has fought enough experienced fighter would know this.

A Cool Site For Stun Guns, Taser Guns and Pepper Spray

15

[QUOTE=Nick Forrer;818816]The idea that your physical life is over at 39 is absurd. I used to train with a guy who had one leg…and he was in his 40s…and he had only been doing it for a few years.

I think you guys think MMA training is somehow life threatening. :rolleyes:Its like swimming - you dont throw someone in at the deep end who cant swim. You start them in the shallow end and work up progressively.[/QUOTE]

I retired from COMPETITION at 31.
Quite happy to do it too, family being far more important than COMPETITION.
I train every day, usually twice a day, once only on the weekends.
I think he was referring that at 38, he is “too old” to devote his time to COMPETITION.
Training is one thing, competition is another.

16

[QUOTE=k gledhill;818814]chisao seung ma toi madrills deal with this angling and delivering force in the time of motion in on us as we angle offline to fdevelop the structured ‘right x toa jaw’ …seen as wrist sticking it will never evolve but to be a better sticker , not a better striker …:D[/QUOTE]
BINGO…

Makes you wonder doesn’t it, when we hear this isn’t incuded..???:o:(:eek:

17

[QUOTE=Nick Forrer;818809]
2) Often no real power in strikes…no use of Body power (like boxers use)…mainly arm strikes [/QUOTE]

You think all Wing Chun people punch without using the whole body? The problem is most people only learn how to throw one punch and they don’t even learn how to throw it correctly or how to use it in combination. A proper Wing Chun Jab or arrow punch looks almost identical to a boxers power jab. A wing Chun cross or straight punch also looks very similar to a boxers cross. Its not something people just created after watching the UFC, its techniques that have been taught. Maybe not to some people for whatever reason.

Another example is the push kick in MT, we have it and it looks almost identical aswell. BUT, you won’t see anyone use it correctly on the web. They put no force, or hip motion in they just pick thier leg up and pray that will do something.

We have a sidekick that looks in some ways similar to a mma sidekick. We have knees also.. but then again nobody on the web puts power into them. If you don’t put your hip into it ect.. no power.

We generate power just like everyone else, the problem is people don’t learn or understand this. Its like me saying I know everything about BJJ… yah ok who is dumb enough to believe that?

The problem why you will not see Wing Chun mixed that much into any MMA skill set is our footwork is too odd. We switch legs, twist, move our feet way too much for the average person. We have some technqiues that a few people have added that trained with Wing Chun. One technique that I hear about was added by a few a MT fighters (nameless unknown fighters) was (can’t remember Chinese name).. its basically translated into two powers going same direction. I am not proficient at the technique but its been done on me in sparring a few times. I believe strongly that our shin attacks could be used very effectively in mma. I have seen a few mma guys in fights use a MT round kick in a similar fashion that we use our round kick.

The fact is MT/BJJ are the easiest combinations to quickly become a good MMA fighter.

people train with cooperation and people don’t. If I never roll in BJJ class isn’t that called training only cooperatively? When I free chi sao nobody lets me do anything. When we do sparring nobody lets me do anything. (If they did I wouldn’t come home so banged up).

MT is just more suited for this environment. Any fighting style is going to really “look” like any other. Why? how many ways can you really punch? you must twist somewhere right?

no question about it the guys that fight in pro MMA are amazing fighters. You have to be crazy to want that type of life.

18

Fighters from my WC school have had regular and recent successes in MMA at intermediate level shows. Our WC school got several gold and silver medals at a state BJJ comp, and one of our instructors won the LH Machado Nationals in BJJ and is currently undefeated in MMA (6-0-0, IIRC).

Maybe your WC don’t work in MMA, but don’t extrapolate that out to include everyone, please.

And yeah, at 52, LMAO to anyone at 39 who thinks he’s too old to train MMA. You’re not likely to get to Pride or the UFC if you start now, but suggesting you’re too old to train in MMA or BJJ is ridiculous.

I’ve done various MA’s since I was 22, but didn’t start WC until I was 35, BJJ until I was 46. I have a family and have worked in IT full time all my life.

I don’t regard myself as special. If you’re “too old” at 39, you might be special, but not in a good way.

19

[QUOTE=Nick Forrer;818809]Some answers

  1. Most wing chun is rubbish - unrealistic and wouldnt work for real…

e.g. this nonsense - look at how ‘landing’ a slap is more important than power and positioning

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KyqmiV58o_8

  1. Often no real power in strikes…no use of Body power (like boxers use)…mainly arm strikes (see above)

  2. training in WC features too many cooperative drills and or chi sau and too little hard sparring

  3. Any striking art needs to be trained with grappling to be effective in MMA

  4. Boxing/Muay Thai are much more plug and play…A few basic tools (Although not .[/QUOTE]

Yep… that pretty much sums it up. Good post.

20

[QUOTE=nschmelzer;818795]My answer (and only my opinion) is that WCK is the UFC/MMA “for the rest of us.” [/QUOTE]

Don’t kid yourself… WC is not even close to MMA.

MMA “for the rest of us” is the same MMA that the pros do, only not at that level.