Why UFC fighters don't use WCK

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=nschmelzer;818795]I am often asked (usually by my wife): If WCK is so great - why don’t ANY of the UFC fighters use it? After all, if it was an effective sytle/system - why isn’t has’nt the UFC/MMA world discovered it or evolved into it?
[/QUOTE]

Well in UFC 5 a guy named Asbel Cancio fought who said he was from Ving Tsun. He got beat in 21 seconds by Dave Beneteau. He got taken down, mounted, and pounded into a TKO very quickly.

That event might have dampened any desire to state a WCK background that fighters have.

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[QUOTE=sihing;818805]In essence I believe that the UFC/MMA guys can’t afford to take the time to learn what WC has to teach them. [/QUOTE]

If you had something that was proven to be highly effective and made some of the other things obsolete, you’d better believe that just about every MMA fighter would take as much time as was needed to learn this.

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[QUOTE=Sihing73;818818]MMA/UFC is a sport and does not translate to combat, I know a lot of people will not agree with this but hey, consider this: In a combat situation one person will most likley be facing multiple assailants often armed. When is the last time you saw a MMA\UFC fighter do this ;)[/QUOTE]

Of course this begs the question, how many WC guys fight full contact against multiple, armed opponents?

MMA translates much closer to real combat than does chi sao, forms and wooden dummy work.

MMA training is the perfect format for training for multiple opponents and weapons. Same training, just throw in more variables, which is exactly what the Dog Brothers approach does.

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[QUOTE=Sihing73;818818]Having watched a UFC match this weekend I will say I was not impressed by what I saw. I mean, honestly, if I can spend 5 minutes or more rolling around on the ground trying to make my opponent submit then I will be quite happy. Unfortunately, in a REAL fight if it takes me more than a few seconds or maybe a minute tops to stop my opponent then I am in trouble, especially if he brought along a few friends.[/QUOTE]

UFC 78 was about as exciting as watching continental drift. There were a couple of exceptions, like Joe Lauzon’s fight and seeing Houston “We Have A Problem” Alexander unable to escape mount after his past 2 Tank Abbot like aggressive wins.

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[QUOTE=monji112000;818861]You think all Wing Chun people punch without using the whole body? The problem is most people only learn how to throw one punch and they don’t even learn how to throw it correctly or how to use it in combination. A proper Wing Chun Jab or arrow punch looks almost identical to a boxers power jab. A wing Chun cross or straight punch also looks very similar to a boxers cross. Its not something people just created after watching the UFC, its techniques that have been taught. Maybe not to some people for whatever reason.

Another example is the push kick in MT, we have it and it looks almost identical aswell. BUT, you won’t see anyone use it correctly on the web. They put no force, or hip motion in they just pick thier leg up and pray that will do something.

We have a sidekick that looks in some ways similar to a mma sidekick. We have knees also.. but then again nobody on the web puts power into them. If you don’t put your hip into it ect.. no power..[/QUOTE]

So why is it that you can see so many people from BJJ, wrestlng, Muay Thai, boxing and judo doing their techniques “correctly on the web”, but not the WC guy?

Think it might have something to do with inefficient training methods?

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;818879]Of course this begs the question, how many WC guys fight full contact against multiple, armed opponents?

MMA translates much closer to real combat than does chi sao, forms and wooden dummy work.

MMA training is the perfect format for training for multiple opponents and weapons. Same training, just throw in more variables, which is exactly what the Dog Brothers approach does.[/QUOTE]

Hi Dale,

Well, the training is there and is practiced by some. For example while with LT’s group we used to train to fight out of a corner against three opponents. Of course the main object was to get out of the corner and get away. Still, imagine if I had opted to shoot one of my opponents and roll around on the ground for several minutes. What do you think his two buddies would be doing? Where’s the fantasy now???

You make a good point about training methods but you miss the fact that MMA fighting is not the same as street combat. Again, consider what combat is then tell me if you really want to go to the ground…if you do then tell me how many REAL fights you have had then we’ll talk about fantasy fighters.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;818884]So why is it that you can see so many people from BJJ, wrestlng, Muay Thai, boxing and judo doing their techniques “correctly on the web”, but not the WC guy?

Think it might have something to do with inefficient training methods?[/QUOTE]

Hi Dale,

Correctly according to who??? Even when someone points out a WC technique you seem to find an excuse not to recognize it :rolleyes:

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[QUOTE=Sihing73;818893]Hi Dale,

Correctly according to who??? Even when someone points out a WC technique you seem to find an excuse not to recognize it :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

According to the poster I quoted.

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[QUOTE=Sihing73;818892]

You make a good point about training methods but you miss the fact that MMA fighting is not the same as street combat. Again, consider what combat is then tell me if you really want to go to the ground…if you do then tell me how many REAL fights you have had then we’ll talk about fantasy fighters.[/QUOTE]

I don’t remember anybody saying MMA was the same as street fighting. It is, however, closer than doing chi sao.

As far as going to the ground, that completely depends on the situation. As a BJJ black belt and a 30 + year grappler, of course I want to go to the ground against a single opponent.

If multiple opponents are involved, of course I dont’ want to take it to the ground. However, I may not have a choice. If a fight does end up there, who do you think will have a better chance, the MMA fighter who spends at least half his time training there or the WC guy who is completely clueless?

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Well, my "2 cents " on this is the fact that MMA don’t want to learn WC because they dont care about a different style or they think it is too hard to learn how to use effectively. If they did they could use those hrs of training to learn the basic principles of WC.

It’s not too hard if you are focused and want to learn. The principles (if explained and shown correctly) are pretty easy to grasp. I started to kinda get it with the first lesson. True, it is something that will take a lifetime to truly understand but a basic knowlegde will keep you alive.

Also, it is not something that someone has been successful with in the ring. All (maybe not all)UFC/MMA guys pick their style based on what they have seen that works. Untill they see it, they probably wont budge nor will they take the time to actually try to see if it works. While there are those with minds open enough to try, the majority of bandwagon jumpers wont. UFC/MMA is built upon the bandwagon jumpers. Without them BJJ wouldn’t be nearly as popular and without them WC may never be used in the ring as much.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;818896]I don’t remember anybody saying MMA was the same as street fighting. It is, however, closer than doing chi sao.

As far as going to the ground, that completely depends on the situation. As a BJJ black belt and a 30 + year grappler, of course I want to go to the ground against a single opponent.

If multiple opponents are involved, of course I dont’ want to take it to the ground. However, I many not have a choice. If taken there, who do you think will have a better chance, the MMA fighter who spends at least half his time training there or the WC guy who is completely clueless?[/QUOTE]

Hi Dale,

Perhaps I missunderstood all of your previous posts. I thought that you were equating MMA fighting to be like street combat. Now you say it is closer than Chi Sau, however Chi Sau is not fighting but attribute training. If you wanted to compare fighting methods perhaps you should visit a school and observe, or take part in a Lat Sau program. This would be more akin to fighting and would utilize the ATTRIBUTES trained in Chi Sau. I’ll bet you will find more realistic training then in the MMA gym. Againk you will or could see training against multiple opponents, weapons etc. Please tell me the last time you saw a MMA fighter training to defend against a knife or club attack???

In a real street combat situation please tell me when multiple opponents ARE not involved, or when weapons are not involved. But, I am glad you admit that going to the ground in such a situation would not be preferable. As to whether the MMA fighter or a WC guy would be better off I would say the WC guy is better off as he will be trying to get to his feet as quickly as possible so as to avoid the other assailants stomping him or worse. Of course, I guess the MMA guy could curl into the fetal position until the ref stops match :smiley:

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My Take

I agree with Nicks post -

But more importantly IMO and probably as a direct result of ‘the training itself’.

Its the People attracted to a particular style.

Generalising here - but IME its more often the case - the body and personallity types of individuals draw them towards certain styles.

Im yet to meet muscle bound agro types that have had an interest in VT. My mates that fit into that group have gone for CQB, TKB, MMA etc.

Conversly VT been much more step by step, softer appraoch type training, draws those that dont have what we call down in old NZ the ‘Mungrel’ in them…
We find small’er’ body types, people looking to intellectualise the physical as well as mix it up ‘a bit’. :stuck_out_tongue:

Im generilsing here, but you get the rough idea. Which is why i believe we dont see VT stylists with ground games in MMA…

The majority are looking for skills for personal protection over competition…which changes what you can get away with drastically IMO.

DREW

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[QUOTE=Liddel;818904]I agree with Nicks post -

But more importantly IMO and probably as a direct result of ‘the training itself’.

Its the People attracted to a particular style.

Generalising here - but IME its more often the case - the body and personallity types of individuals draw them towards certain styles.

Im yet to meet muscle bound agro types that have had an interest in VT. My mates that fit into that group have gone for CQB, TKB, MMA etc.

Conversly VT been much more step by step, softer appraoch type training, draws those that dont have what we call down in old NZ the ‘Mungrel’ in them…
We find small’er’ body types, people looking to intellectualise the physical as well as mix it up ‘a bit’. :stuck_out_tongue:

Im generilsing here, but you get the rough idea. Which is why i believe we dont see VT stylists with ground games in MMA…

The majority are looking for skills for personal protection over competition…which changes what you can get away with drastically IMO.

DREW[/QUOTE]
Liddel, I’ve often thought the same thing about the people attracted to WC. I consider myself a martial artist who happens to do WC. Which means I don’t discount the other arts out there. A warrior should be familiar with varied weapons. We had to be familiar with AK 47s and AK 50s in Vietnam just in case you needed to fire one to save yourself. I wouldn’t discount the Communist AK just because it wasn’t a NATO weapon.

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Drew and Phil make good points.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;818884]So why is it that you can see so many people from BJJ, wrestlng, Muay Thai, boxing and judo doing their techniques “correctly on the web”, but not the WC guy?

Think it might have something to do with inefficient training methods?[/QUOTE]

Its not 1 specific thing. First off I will give modern sports their due, they have allot of great methods for training techniques. their pad work, and various equipment/drills are very effective. If I was training people you can bet money I would be using any drill or training method I thought would help. I don’t care who created it, if It can help coordination, timing ect.. I’m always interested in learning.

With MT, Wrestling, boxing ect.. everyone knows the techniques and everyone constantly tests the techniques to see if things are wrong. A person could go to a boxing gym and learn most of the techniques if a few classes. Then all the rest is application. The people that are natural fighters flock to these styles because 1) they are more suited for MMA/MT/Sanda ect.. they don’t have complicated techniques, and they focus heavily on conditioning. Short training time with a natural fighter normally creates a good fighter FAST.
2) they see all the major fighters train these arts so why train some goofy looking TMA? Don’t tell me you haven’t met a TMA who could fight?Maybe they wouldn’t win a MMA fight, but some TMA people do win fights on the street. TMA don’t attract those types of people (natural fighters). TMA attract skinny geeky nerds mostly. People who watch movies and think life resembles what they see. Or people who look for other benefits in martial arts. Again fighting isn’t everyone’s goal (they should be honest about it though).
3)TMA martial arts have a ego problem, they refuse to admit when they are flawed. doing forms all day is great but it doesn’t do much to help you win a fight. Chi sao is wonderful but again its not fighting. The way most people do chi sao.. just isn’t productive anyway.

With Wing Chun and allot of Kung Fu its really one or two people(out of many many people) who figure out how to fight with the style. Normally by going around fighting allot of people and training with ah few teachers. Kung Fu got a big clamp by the Chinese government. MT and boxing didn’t. MT and Boxing are both looked at in a way as a national pride. I know that baseball is our national past time, but boxing has its place in our history. Its almost like Sanda is starting slowly to be that way.

Not allot of people learned to fight with Wing Chun. The people who didn’t were not going out and testing their techniques. Maybe they didn’t want to be fighters( I don’t). So they focused on other aspects of the art. The people who did learned to fight trained with lots of people. Those people are few and far between. Those people competed in amateur boxing, kick boxing, and some mma.

MT/boxing/Sub wrestling breeds fighters. Any TMA that wants to breed a fighter is going to need to take some notes. Fighters need to be tough, fast, good timing, strong ect.. those are the attributes that most MT, boxing, submission wrestling schools train. How many TMA schools really work on those skills?

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[QUOTE=anerlich;818937]Drew and Phil make good points.[/QUOTE]
thx, I’ll be starting a Judo class next Saturday. Knowledge is power. :wink:

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;818896]I don’t remember anybody saying MMA was the same as street fighting. It is, however, closer than doing chi sao.
[/QUOTE]
playing chi sao is like playing chess or Go. These games help in many ways but without proper training through drills and sparring you aren’t going to see much. What the ---- is lat sao? Is that free chi sao… again chi sao isn’t fighting.

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[QUOTE=Sihing73;818898]Please tell me the last time you saw a MMA fighter training to defend against a knife or club attack???[/QUOTE]

Saturday.

In a real street combat situation please tell me when multiple opponents ARE not involved, or when weapons are not involved.

How many fights have you been in in your life? How many were agaisnt one person and how many were you against a group of guys with weapons?

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;818933]Liddel, I’ve often thought the same thing about the people attracted to WC.[/QUOTE]

Its a strange thing - ive seen guys, big guys in hieght & weight whos elbows dont even know the other exists doing VT :eek:

Then i think to myself - man if i had his body type id probably get into a full contact hard style right off the bat…

I do VT because its great for me not because i have the idea its the greatest !

:rolleyes:
Food for thought
DREW

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lmao ! Dale has spoken so it must be true :smiley: