Wing Chun MMA

know of four Kung Fu guys that competed in the UFC…

Jason DeLucia was a red sash in Five Animals Kung Fu who competed in UFC II He finished his first opponent with a subtle Kung Fu maneuvre called a “Triangle from the Guard”. He was armbarred by Royce in the second round.

David Levicki (sp?) who I believed studied Praying Mantis Kung Fu was promptly knocked out by Orlando Weit (kickboxer) in round one of UFC II.

Felix Lee Mitchell represented Shaolin Kung Fu and fought in UFC III as an alternate. He was paired up with Ken Shamrock in the second round and put up a reasonably good fight until Shammy finished him with a naked choke. To Felix’s credit, Shamrock could not (or would not after learning he wouldn’t be fighting Royce) continue to the finals.

A Wing Chun expert (whose name alludes me) competed in UFC IV as an exhibition/alternate fighter. The match lasted 44 seconds where he was dragged to the ground and pummelled to oblivion from the mount.

After that confrontation, I’ve heard very little concerning Kung Fu fighters competing in the UFC.

You hear alot of we cannot use our deadly tech in the cage but neither can the non Wing Chun guy so that makes it fair. Karate has eye gouges, throat strikes, knee breaks, groin kicks and arm breaks but seem to be able to make thier stuff work in the ring.

Samson,

the “WT in UFC” thread has more wing chun / MMA stuff (including links to video).

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35631

-Lawrence

There was one UFC, I think, fight where the winner (of the match) used plain vanilla chain punches and literally chain punched his opponent across the octagon… I don’t know if he was officially a “wing chun fighter” or not.

I don’t think, for whatever reason that any of the “WCK” labeled fighters had much experience in the style or in fighting per se, big surprise. :rolleyes:

Perhaps some of the newer generation of folks will take WCK into NHB, K1 or other venues and, as crazy as it might sound to the lotus eaters, actually use the system in realistic “sport fighting.” I see lots of people putting stuff out there, demos showing how WCK concept driven techniques can be used on the ground, to escape from the mount, to stay in the mount. Will we ever get to see that and WCK standup in the Ring?

There are a lot of different wing chun styles on this forum do any of you guys have any full contact wing chun videos from your school?

There was one UFC, I think, fight where the winner (of the match) used plain vanilla chain punches and literally chain punched his opponent across the octagon… I don’t know if he was officially a “wing chun fighter” or not.

It was Vitor Belfort. He isn’t a wing chun fighter.

Just had a chance to watch some of Emin’s students doing full contact fighting on the old thread, that is some of the best wing chun I have ever seen wing chun vs wing chun love to see wing chun vs non wing chun videos? He seems to be a awesome sifu

Which clip are you referring to?

Yes please. Post a link to these vids, I’d like to see them. Also David Levicki in the UFC was billed as a Wing Chun guy.

Hmmmm Questionable!

I’d question how the title “wing chun expert” is used. IMO, I don’t think there are many experts of anything these days, seeing how people especially MMA guy jump from style to style. MMA think should really be called modified greco style wrestling only because it has kicking and punching added to it, which is no big woop!

Also, from what I see too, any art where it’s primary objective is to break, mame, or kill someone, like wing chun, will not fare well in any submission style contest, unless you happen to be a jiu-jitsu or some other form of grappler for which these contest and it’s rules support mostly, IMO.

For example: I found for instance that most grpplers can take a punch. So if I was the wing chun guy, not trained in submission, or locks, etc, then my only option would be to go for the guy’s vitals in order to stop him. That’s how we are trained and also that’s how I would approach it in the street, but as we all now, you cannot do arm breaks, jabs to the eyes, small joint locks, or do anything to the knees! The very arcenal of weapons a wing chun guy trains with is eliminated and stripped down to have to fight the wrestlers game. You might as well tie their hands behind their back, Which is why I say, you will never see, say an expert, kung fu practitioner or real combat practitioners competing and or able to win in this kind of environment. Now if we were to take it to the street, that may level the playing field somewhat so the Kung fu guy or street combat guy has now a fighting chance, and is able to use his very unique and specific techniques that otherwise are banned from the ring. Think about it, If I was the striker going against a grappler, I will not want to go to the ground, and if the guy can take punches and is much larger than me, I’ll want to take him out the fastest way I know how, and that is, go for his vitals upon first contact. Also, if I see that he is on the ground and I’m still standing, I’m not going to jump omn top of him as I’ve seen many grapplers (UFC mostly) do to continue and beat the guy, no way, I’m going to stay up and stomp on his head, his ankels, his knees, etc…, where I still have the most advantage. :slight_smile:

I think the main assumption being made by many MMA enthusiast is that UFC/MMA is actually limitless and all encomassing of many arts mixed together, and it really is not. Not while there are still safety issues involved for the purpose of sport, and those rules and regulations kind of already dictate how one can only be defeated and what methods you are actually afforded, in this case, it’s grappling! Unless of course the other guy can’t take a shot to the head, but if he can, as many seem to be able, the odds are in the grapplers favor 3 to 1 perhaps more, and would explain quite a lot to why many kung fu practitioners don’t do well! Besides other more common and obvious factors like, not a real expert or compitent fighter at all which would be my first guess!LOL, but it wouldn’t matter anyways, the deck is stacked against them no matters if he’s a decorated special armed forces combat guy who has ears of his victims worn around his neck and who has seen more action than anyone! :cool:

It’s tricky.

Honestly, if I was going to compete in MMA, I would supplement my Wing Chun knowledge with grappling, kickboxing and whatever “fad” (term used to mean: the in-thing of the time) was in use at the time.

The reason is simply because a lot of the fighters I would face would have that knowledge as well. Maybe I would be the “stand-up” fighter, but I would have to have some knowledge of what I would be fighting against.

That’s my bit.

I tend to agree that this is the most reasonable thing to do. If I wanted to beat the Thais, then I would study Thai boxing first which means to do it and to compete. If I wanted to beat the grapplers, then I would study their methods and train with them a lot. What’s it hurt? In 5 or 10 years of playing around with those guys you could learn a lot. People easily waste 10 years of their life training something which they think might help and it doesn’t in these situations. If your body is in great shape then give it a shot. Even a year of playing around in each modern fighting discipline is very useful. If your body is not in great shape then you shouldn’t be competing in the first place. Get in top shape first. Most people don’t train to enter these sporting events. For those people it’s a waste of time to talk about these things or to even try to imagine how you might fare in these events. Mostly you would lose because you are trying to play their game which they are good at and you aren’t. Maybe theoretically a purist can win if his teacher was a real fighter and good trainer or an exceptional trainer with a team of graduated sparring and training partners (level 1 to level n). Real fighters are strong, fast and tough and training three times a week for a few hours won’t cut it. “A man’s got to know his limitations.” - Clint Eastwood

Ray

any art where it’s primary objective is to break, mame, or kill someone, like wing chun,

If this is Wing Chun’s primary objective, then I suggest it fails miserably.

Where are all the dead bodies? Why were not the rooftops of HK covered with the corpses of the Choy Li Fut enemies?

Why wasn’t Willam Cheung killed and Emin seriously damaged in their altercation?

If Emin claims 300 fights, why isn’t he doing hard time for mass murder?

How many people, seriously, have you heard of who were killed or mamed [sic] after trying to mug people who defended themselves with WC?

My organisation has several fighters who have succeeded in intermediate level MMA and kickboxing competition. My Sifu had 37 pro kickboxing fights.

It IS certainly possible to tweak WC for competitive success, but not in MMA without studying BJJ or some other grappling art as well.

If this was the only reason wing chun doesn’t do well in MMA, then why do most of our guys usually get their @sses handed to them in K-1 / kickboxing competitions as well? (Exceptions such as Rick Spain and a handful of others non-withstanding.)

IMO, it has less to do with any competitive rule structure, and more to do with how most wing chun people train on a regular basis.

-Lawrence

I agree with this. It has all to do with the intensity of your training and your motivations behind it. If you are into MMA competitions then by all means, WC can be applied to it and used successfully, when a regular training regimen is implemented (meaning road work, sparring, bag work and such using WC movements, concepts, and techniques. I’m not going to do bag work using boxing punches as a WC practitioner, training for an event/competition). Does one have to crosstrain to deal with the grapplers and such? No IMO, but a study of their strategies and techniques would be recommended, so as to not be surprised by their tactics used against you in a MMA fight.

If you are not interested in such competitive events, fine too, as the ultimate meaning behind its creation and actual usage is not for competitive events. So once again, when looking at individuals, you cannot judge the system, but ONLY judge the individual using it. When trying to state claims to a systems effectiveness, then you have to look at the system it self and at the why’ and how’s of that system being analyzed.

James

James, I can’t believe we finally agree on something!! Hahahaha… :smiley:

Unless you train against someone who is actually skilled at using those tactics, -“knowing” about them can only do so much for you.

-Imagine a wrestler saying he was ready to fight an MMA fighter with 10 years of Wing Chun experience saying; “Well, I’ve studied a couple of wing chun videos, and I know about their tactics, so I’m ready for my opponent’s stand-up game.” (Would you bet on a guy who would say something like that? -I wouldn’t…)

-Lawrence

I do agree that it would be best to actually train with some similar in style to that which you are going to be competing against, but on the street this is not possible, so agressive attack is preferred and the tactic of surprise works very well, hopefully though, you are able to surprise the one you are fighting with first before he surprises you.

As for the wrestler being able to handle the MMA with 10yrs experience in WC, this is undetermined and simply a “What if” question. What if the wrestler has intense chi kung training and can call upon his jing to make him immoveable? Then what???

James

Didnt Keith Mazza win all his fights in Extreme Fighting. most wing chun people dont do wing chun to compete. like most martial artisrt. wing chun could be adapted to do well in mma. but most of the techniques are straightline. Kick a knee cap with a straightline attacks and it breaks, not very sportsman like..A good wing chun person should have good footwork to stop the shoot takedown, but some of the wc fighters in the early ufc didnt. i have studied bjj although not for that long, but when you ar rolling there is a lot of oppetunity to bil jee(strike) to the eyes a major WC weapon. also the straight punches work very well in the guard top or bottom as opposed to round punches

Oh Oh, I see some Ya Buts Ya Buts coming on…

like most martial artisrt. wing chun could be adapted to do well in mma.

It has, by some.

“but most of the techniques are straightline. Kick a knee cap with a straightline attacks and it breaks, not very sportsman like..”

Straightline? You mean like jabs, crosses, teeps?

The knee is far from the only straight line target.

A good wing chun person should have good footwork to stop the shoot takedown, but some of the wc fighters in the early ufc didnt.

Your point is …? They’d be better IMO learning to sprawl properly and get back up quickly.

i have studied bjj although not for that long,

I’ve been doing it since 1999 and pretty full on.

but when you ar rolling there is a lot of oppetunity to bil jee(strike) to the eyes a major WC weapon. also the straight punches work very well in the guard top or bottom as opposed to round punches

Most BJJ guys learn some vale tudo, how to strike and defend against strikes on the ground etc. This is arguably an MA in itself. Rickson has a great striking game on the floor.

Both straight and round punches have application depending on the position of you and the other guy, as do kicks (both straight and round). A good BJJ guy will laugh at you or break all your fingers off if you try pressure point striking on him. And bil jee won’t work real well if you’re underneath the mount or side control, your likely position next position from the guard top OR bottom if you don’t have some grappling skills.

I’m wondering what exactly this wrestler is going to have to prepare for.

Is WC such an amazing different stand-up game that he can’t just train with someone who does a different stand-up art and do just fine?

It’s not like he has to actually outstrike his opponent.