Wing Chun MMA

[Wayfaring]

Seven,

I’m with you on not hard-wiring improper timeframe responses by many repetitions of “missing”, but where I’m coming from are basically two concepts here:

1. Timing - I like to work any kind of drills with timing at slower speeds, and try and catch the “feel” of the proper timing. I do this by noticing the “feel” of being early, late, and on the money. Then I dial in the early and late to being closer and closer to on the money until I can stick it every time. Then I vary the speed, angles, and other variables and work sticking the timing. Once in a while I’ll throw in an early or late to still make sure I can detect the feeling of it. In live environments many times techniques are not on the money, but it’s a matter of being a little off and knowing how to adjust. I feel this approach to drills helps me hard-wire that. I like to try and hard-wire a few things before getting myself in bad habits in live environments (but definitely live every training session if possible).

2. Improving Weaknesses - no offense, but I don’t think there are very many people on this forum that think they (and definitely not their version of wc) have any weaknesses. So they don’t improve. This especially holds true with the close range or earth range of combat. The ability to recover when out of position is important in striking, but absolutely critical on the ground. The whole idea of putting yourself in an inferior position and working your way out is excellent training for better defenses and improving weaknesses. Unless of course you don’t have any :rolleyes: Take off the funknacolored belt and train some grappling once in a while - even if just for fun. Catching someone in an armbar 2 seconds after you’re out of position and they bulldoze you and take you down will make it all worth it, I promise.

Ultimate - thanks - cool catch history references.

[UNDERDOG_2]

You know I train under Grados. I did chisau with Vic. I kept hitting him. He couldn’t touch me. And I don’t even like chisau too much. His structure was wide open. Go back and look at the **** that went down between me and victor. He talked **** I said I’ll come down to your school with one guy(and a video camera) and spar you and your students. He said no. The best part is he claims to be this master. He trains wrestling and boxing because his wingchun skills aren’t good. And he uses that as an excuse to say that wingchun isn’t enough. lol
Its enough for guys like boztepe and grados. To be honest I haven’t seen anyone else near as good.
Phil redmond sucks too. As you know. The difference is though is he is respectful. Paralti is like a little punk.
Isn’t it funny that they won’t let you say your opinoin about the clips? I think it sucks.

Mortal 1

[Ultimatewingchun]

I have four witnesses to the 10 seconds or so of chi sao that is referred to who can tell you unequivocally that no such “hitting and hitting of my open structure and therefore I couldn’t hit him” ever took place…and these same people will tell you that I was going VERY light with him for those brief moments - PURPOSELY - since this took place in my living room about three feet away from my television and other furniture - as opposed to the ballistic gear (they and many other people who know me can tell you) that I’m capable of getting into when I want to - whether it be chi sao, sparring, or fighting.

And the same four people can tell you that two days later (at the school) they also witnessed this person’s comments first hand about how my arm blocks to his legs while he was trying to kick me (while wearing shin and knee pads) - resulted in lots of pain in his legs (and no landed kicks)…

As well as the fact that I have never claimed to be a wing chun “master”…

As well as the fact that there are a lot more than just four people who can tell you that not only are my wing chun skills very good - but the blend I’ve made of wing chun with boxing and wrestling is very effective…

And then there’s the fact that my standing invitation for this man to meet me alone somewhere if he’s so convinced that I can’t fight - has never been accepted.

But more important than refuting mortal’s false claims, dog…(since I’m sure he never thought his private message to you would ever be printed for all to see - and in this regard it’s you who’s the “punk”)…

more important is the fact that it’s time to out you once again as the often banned Dave Mead.

Let me explain something to you, fool. The fact that you keep changing your screen name is not sufficient to hide who you are, since each time you do it (ie.- UNDERDOG, Samson, Death Touch, etc.) - this alleged “new” person with only 1-2-3-10-15 posts ALWAYS seems to know JUST A LITTLE TOO MUCH about me, about Phil Redmond, about TWC…AND ALWAYS COMES AFTER ME OR PHIL OR WILLIAM CHEUNG…right away!!!

No warming up in the bullpen. Not at all. Just a few posts - and then, whammo…LOL.

Maybe it’s time for some rehab? Psychotherapy? A talk with a priest? A new girlfriend? When was the last time you got laid?

Something.

[air]

I just want to add If someone trains thier accuracy and timing and strenghten there fingers to do bil gee(finger gouging)vs someone who just knows about it and think they can do just as well is just plain old foolish nothing more

[anerlich]

But whenever I see them I see all out commitment to the shoot with them driving the opponent backwards, but what do I know

The two main ways of performing a double leg takedown that I have been taught most definitely do NOT involve driving the guy backwards, like a rugbly tackle seeking to eat up yards would.

Both start with trying to get UNDER the guy with a penetration step, shoulder into his hip/waist and grabbing both legs behind the knees. Pushing him back makes this harder if not impossible.

Then either:

1. Lift him onto your shoulder, turn him while his feet are off the ground, keep his legs together and put him down with your shoulder in his gut, finishing in side control. What happens to his body is similar to what happens if you hip-toss him.

2. drive the front knee to the floor, step around him with the other leg and turn the corner driving him sideways or even back in the direction you came, controlling his legs as the same time, more or less passing his guard on your feet/knees.

Neither way do you try to drive the guy back - that makes it easier for him to pull guard or sprawl heavily. The proper execution allows you to “guide him to the ground rather than force him there”, to use your terminology.

[Jason_DeLucia]

@Wayfaring

Agree on high percentage and bread and butter work.

Another thing it’s good to practice is to place yourself in trouble and work your way out. For example on this thread with the shoot examples, if you’re going to try and “stick” a shooter with a knee/elbow, practice missing. See if you can still sprawl. Practice being late for the sprawl and getting a single caught. Can you still control space while being taken down? Position yourself for advantage when you hit the ground? Can you recover position on the ground with skills there? For all you straight wc enthusiasts, isn’t a main concept of bil gee recovering your position when you lose it?

it’s giving it to the person with the intention of losing it while redirecting it .yes .

[Jason_DeLucia]

@Ultimatewingchun

I am a big believer in this kind of training - since the unpredictability of the “real world” could quite conceivably result in finding yourself in a compromising situation/position/receiving end of a punch, kick, takedown, throw, etc…and I would much prefer to have had a reasonable amount of training for such contingencies before it may ever happen for real.

yes train the negative and build up foundation from worst case scenario out .

[lawrenceofidaho]

Jason,

thanks for your replies on this thread. -It’s nice to see a well-known fighter here on the forum…

I hope you’ll check in once in a while and post some more in the future. You have the unique perspective of being (considered by many as) a rather traditional [Kung Fu] artist, yet also having experience in the higher levels of MMA competition.

Maybe some of your insights could help bridge the gap between the camps of the “traditionalists” and “modernists” on certain topics.

Regards,
-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

Jason,

would you be kind enough to say somethng about the differences between the preparation for your first UFC fight, and your most recent MMA fight? How has your experience modified the way in which you get ready to face a well-rounded opponent?

Thanks,
-Lawrence

[Jason_DeLucia]

@lawrenceofidaho

Jason,

would you be kind enough to say somethng about the differences between the preparation for your first UFC fight, and your most recent MMA fight? How has your experience modified the way in which you get ready to face a well-rounded opponent?

Thanks,
-Lawrence

i keep a generic condition regimen and add to it the strategy plan for the particular opponent in question .each add-on differs depending on type of event and opponent .

[Phil_Redmond]

Jason, which has contributed more to your success, cross training or your kungfu?
Phil

[lawrenceofidaho]

@Phil Redmond

Jason, which has contributed more to your success, cross training or your kungfu?
Phil

Or your conditioning?
(Sorry, Phil. -I had to butt in…Hahahaha.)

-L

[Phil_Redmond]

@lawrenceofidaho

Or your conditioning?
(Sorry, Phil. -I had to butt in…Hahahaha.)

-L

NP, that should have been my first question.
Phil

[Jason_DeLucia]

@Phil Redmond

Jason, which has contributed more to your success, cross training or your kungfu?
Phil

or my conditioning .has to be all of the above as parts of the same thing .conditioning is your number one hold .conditioning is how we assimilate technique .kata is the catalog of strategy .and each challenge provides the “crosstrain” method for that particular event .my master used to say a 175 lb praying mantis would be the most formidable opponent .but many events won’t allow the most basic praying mantis strikes ,so you improvise for that event and that creates your crosstrain for that event .

[Phil_Redmond]

@Jason DeLucia

or my conditioning .has to be all of the above as parts of the same thing .conditioning is your number one hold .conditioning is how we assimilate technique .kata is the catalog of strategy .and each challenge provides the “crosstrain” method for that particular event .my master used to say a 175 lb praying mantis would be the most formidable opponent .but many events won’t allow the most basic praying mantis strikes ,so you improvise for that event and that creates your crosstrain for that event .

Thx, Jason, some traditional martial artists believe they can’t fight in MMA events because they can’t use their “deadly” techniques. I’m glad that you said that you can improvise your techniques for an event.
Phil

[Jam_master]

@anerlich

If this is Wing Chun’s primary objective, then I suggest it fails miserably.

Where are all the dead bodies? Why were not the rooftops of HK covered with the corpses of the Choy Li Fut enemies?

Yes Your partly right! So let me add striking till submission, or knockout too! And by the way, there were serious casualties in those rooftop fights, just so you know. Aledegedly Bruce had a major incident, William Cheung, and quite a few others, where they seriously hurt someone, and they actually had to leave the country as a result of it.

@anerlich

It IS certainly possible to tweak WC for competitive success, but not in MMA without studying BJJ or some other grappling art as well.

Yes your right about that too, but then it wouldn’t be totally wing chun now would it? Also, You can still use a lot of wing chun concepts that will work for any art, and be successful, but as far as using certain techniques specific to wing chun you can forget about it. You’ll proably end up using less than half your techniques and/or trainning. For instance, if you have to use gloves, the wing chun practitioners most special attribute is his touch sensory perception which alows him or her to sense they’re opponents every move during the contact stage of the fight. If this is hindered by having to use gloves then he’s going to have a huge problem right there, and will more than likely have to adjust or rely on other attributes he’s not specifically trrained for. Again, your dimenishing the art right there and tying the practicioners hands behind his back. You can forget about ever using your FULL arcenal in any competetive urina if your a wing chun practitioner.

[Jam_master]

@lawrenceofidaho

If this was the only reason wing chun doesn’t do well in MMA, then why do most of our guys usually get their @sses handed to them in K-1 / kickboxing competitions as well? (Exceptions such as Rick Spain and a handful of others non-withstanding.)

IMO, it has less to do with any competitive rule structure, and more to do with how most wing chun people train on a regular basis.

-Lawrence

I believe it’s both. Those few other exeptions you mentioned Like Rick Spain, are the exception because of the kind of trainning and background they posses. The Man lived and trained in Cheungs school, and he also tested his gung fu in the street and in other dojo’s throughout australia. The man is a wing chun street fighter first and foremost. I have yet to see or know anyone of that caliber in today’s compititions or in most wing chun cirlces for that matter.

[anerlich]

The man is a wing chun street fighter first and foremost.

Actually, he spent a great deal of time in competition training as well. It’s arguable he was a competitive MAist with an youthful attitude living in an environment which led to lots of violence outside the ring. I’m not sure he’d enjoy your description.

I’ve been his student for 16 years, I’m pretty sure I’ve got the better picture here.

And by the way, there were serious casualties in those rooftop fights, just so you know.

I’ve heard various versions from a number of senior HK WC people, just so that YOU know.

Aledegedly Bruce had a major incident, William Cheung, and quite a few others, where they seriously hurt someone, and they actually had to leave the country as a result of it.

There’s lots of stories why both had to leave the country, but “allegedly” seriously hurting people was but a part thereof.

Yes Your partly right!

Sort of like you, huh?

[Jam_master]

@anerlich

Actually, he spent a great deal of time in competition training as well. It’s arguable he was a competitive MAist with an youthful attitude living in an environment which led to lots of violence outside the ring. I’m not sure he’d enjoy your description.

I’m quite sure considering how in any compitition there are rules that everyone must adhere to, one must tweake their formal traditional training also, and therefore without exeption he had to train like anyone else, specifically for compition also. I believe that’s a given.

ALso let me add to that competative fighting is not the same as fighting in street combat. There are some major differences. Competitive fighting was specifically designed to be longer (than your average street fight or combat situation) and safer for the sake of marketing and sponsorship. If anything it is limited whereas street combat has no limitations. Let me also say too, that in saying all this, I do not mean to diminish any fighter that’s made their mark in the ring link Rick Spain in any way. I believe he has earned his name and reputation as both a competitive fighter and a street combatant. But in all honesty because it’s all that really matters to me, I only respect the street portion of his reputation most of all, if in fact true.

As for the violence outside the ring that I described earlier about Rick Spain, that comes actually from his own bio on his website. It’s his own description, not mine! He even goes on to say that he was reprimanded by Cheung not to pick fights with other schools anymore, after Cheung got numerous complaints. No more different than what Cheung had claimed to have done in his youth as well. Except that with cheung there are reliable supporters to substanciate his claims, such as rival students, actual movie footages, and newspaper articles that documented some of these events.

Of coarse, some if not all, can be taken as possible boastful self-promotion, or plausible truth. It wouldn’t be a first. But none of us will ever know for sure unless an unbias second/third party that was there can support these claims. So in the meantime unless we were actually there too, all we can do is use words or phrases like “aledgedly”, “claimed to have said”, and “suposedly”, etc. LOL

One thing for sure, it does gives us all something on these forums to BS about and occupy our time when we have nothing else to do at work or talk about. Like housewives that watch Jerry springer shows all day long. It’s all just pittiful entertainment I must say. LOL