Analysis, experience, fighting, learning properly are not mutually exclusive worlds.
Joy, you are absolutely correct – they are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are very much interdependent.
What do you suppose those fighters learned about SNT, CK, BJ, etc. from their experience in the ring as they go back to step #2?
Originally posted by Matrix
Terence,
I have a lot of fighting experience, in the ring. I was a kick boxer for several years. Full contact, Knock Out, no head gear. You don’t have a clue about my experience, so be careful about drawing the wrong conclusions. When I look at these clips, I’m looking from the point of view of someone who has fought under those circumstances - many times, and quite frankly I see cr@p.
Then I guess until somebody posts a different (less crappy???) clip, we will have to assume that WC used under full contact circumstances like those shown on the clip is crappy fighting.
Originally posted by chisauking
Yes, it demonstrates that anyone that’s been preparing themselves for a fight well in 1-year in advance will always be better conditioned than the person that had not. Again, can anyone on this forum say that if Marvin Hagler or Ray Leneord were challenged by a boxer that’s been in training for one thing and one thing only for a year, for a fight tommoror, out of the blue, would they stand a chance of winning?
Maybe not…but I’m thinking they would probably at least be able to use a little bit of their boxing skills.
Originally posted by chisauking
Finally, this fight proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that a bigger and stronger man will always win on the ground. If someone that’s been practising for over 30-years and still couldn’t appy his skills in this environment, what chances have you? Even if willy cheung was a black belt of Pakistani Ju Jitsu, he would still have lost.. simply because he was over-powered by a much stronger guy. He conceeded too much on the ground. Grappling is highly reliant on size and strength –
You are right… WC is your game. You know absolutely nothing of grappling.
Originally posted by chisauking
Why do you think virtually no females are in BJJ?
Because most women don’t like the close, hard contact that BJJ requires.
Grappling is highly reliant on size and strength –
snicker
snort
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
I’ll be sure to tell this to my wife, who has mauled several men bigger, stronger and faster than she is. And “natural athlete” does not exactly come to mind when describing her. Dedicated, motivated and persistent, absolutely, but not naturally gifted.
If SHE can do it, anybody can.
Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]snicker
snort
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
I’ll be sure to tell this to my wife, who has mauled several men bigger, stronger and faster than she is. And “natural athlete” does not exactly come to mind when describing her. Dedicated, motivated and persistent, absolutely, but not naturally gifted.
If SHE can do it, anybody can. [/B]
Interesting story! In what kind of circumstances did she “mauled” these men?..
Old Jong,
It was grappling sparring, so everybody was playing by the same rules.
However, given that the poster I am responding to said specifically that GRAPPLING requires size and strength and that the bigger and stronger person will always win, this goes even more to the heart of the issue.
In a straight grappling exercise, where no striking was allowed, the bigger, stronger, faster person - who is not my wife - lost.
Sooooo… it would seem that in grappling, much like anything else, the bigger, stronger, faster person can lose to somebody who is better. Which is my (very narrow) point. While size and strength confer an advantage in any personal combat situation, they are not decisive on their own, even in grappling.
And by mauled, I refer to their egos which were severely bruised. 
In a fight, who knows…but she’s had Kenpo experience and some MT experience and isn’t afraid to mix it up…and I’ve seen her whack a couple of guys around doing that too.
O.K. Merryprankster,that clears it up.
BTW my wife produced her first Chi Ball recently and completely incinerated the turkey she was putting in the oven by accident.Too much “intent” I think!..
Why do you think virtually no females are in BJJ?
This is complete rubbish. The ratios are probably similar to WC and perhaps female representation may be stronger in BJJ.
Of the six blue belts at my school, two are female, and on the petite side.
Finally, this fight proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that a bigger and stronger man will always win on the ground.
Crap. Nogiera vs Bob Sapp. Genki Sudo vs Butterbean.
Stick to arguments you can back up with facts rather than your own wishful prejudiced thinking.
my wife produced her first Chi Ball recently and completely incinerated the turkey she was putting in the oven by accident.
My wife doesn’t cook and I suspect that cooking turkey via chi ball is an “ancient chinese secret,” I’m not privy to.
The “chi-broil” application is the most difficult to master!..Also,she wouldn’t dare using her “Reiki” out of fear of bringing the turkey back to life again!..
Originally posted by Knifefighter
Then I guess until somebody posts a different (less crappy???) clip, we will have to assume that WC used under full contact circumstances like those shown on the clip is crappy fighting.
Since it seems to make you feel better to think this way, then Yes, I think that’s what you should assume.
Originally posted by Matrix
Since it seems to make you feel better to think this way, then Yes, I think that’s what you should assume.
Actually, what would make me happy would be to see some WC applied against a fully resisting opponent that you guys can agree is quality WC. That shouldn’t be so hard, should it?
and the trolling never ends…
My take on the gong sao WT videos
Finally downloaded and viewed those clips. Saw the second one before.
I think those young men are building a good experience with dealing with pressure AND with dealing with the ground.
Why? Simply because they’ve been there with classmates actively pounding the daylights out of them.
As they continue to build competance in basic Wing Chun skills AND continue to full contact spar, they will get a greater sense of what works and what doesn’t for THEM.
I think their teacher should have stepped in sooner on a lot of those fights however. There were guys taking a lot of punishment they didn’t need to.
I notice the also liked to use a LOT of downward elbows to the back of the head to drive their opponent to the ground. And I did see several submissions as well on the ground (kimuras and triangles).
The good thing is they are sparring full out. The question is why are they using some strikes which are not Wing Chun at all, rather more like hammer strikes?
I would also think that they need coaching on calming down so that they get better at conserving energy and not wasting strikes that don’t connect and burning themselves out.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
and the trolling never ends…
Trolling? I gave the guys in the clip (second, shorter kong sao) props and stated that that’s how I believed WC would look when used in a real confrontation against a fully resisting opponent. Matrix is claiming that what they were doing was crap. All I’m wondering, if that is the case, where is the good stuff that is going to look different from that? Or does all the “real-looking WC” just stay locked behind closed doors never to see the light of day?
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
and the trolling never ends…
The never ending story!:rolleyes:
KF:
I gave the clips props too - but there’s not much Wing Chun in it…something you seem to think indicates that there’s very little that WC can bring to the table in reality fighting.
And I know that’s not true.
The clips will keep coming - now that the door is opened.
And the Wing Chun techniques will be getting better.
Now, speaking of clips…
**Hi Terence,
Originally posted by t_niehoff
[
Terence writes:
My perspective is that generally I don’t want to be on the ground in a fight, but my experience is that I don’t always have that choice.
**True
I’ve found that I need to be able to deal with strikes, grappling and groundfighting. What I’ve found is that folks that are fighting as part of their training, not just “sparring” with other stand-up fighters or schoolmates
**Are you making a distinction between sparring and actual fighting or are you saying that standup fighters are sparring while groundfighters are really fighters? Isnt sparring a controlled fight without the anger?
(for example, if you only face boxers, you may not appreciate the need to defend the shoot),
**true.
have all reached the same conclusion. Consider the Cheung-Boztepe fight – how much would “vertical full-contact sparring” have helped? Having skill in the body-to-body clinch and on the ground would have made all the difference.
**I seriously doubt it, WC was blindsided, sandbagged, and totally surprised. IMO what happened did not prove a thing except some people have no scruples.
My training motto is: prepare for the worst and hope for the best (rather than expect everything to go just as I want it to).
**Good motto.
The sign of a theoretician (someone that isn’t fighting)
**Ok, just dont make the assumption that those of us who wish to spend our training time on wing chun are unfamilar with street fighting. I imagine that the opposite is true in fact.
is that they approach fighting from the perspective of “this is how fighting should be” rather than “this is how fighting is”.
**Now that I agree with and know a lot of karate people that would fall into that category.
Dave c
[/B]