Before this forum turns into the official BJJ forum, may I ask all the people who’s constantly repeating that WC don’t have all the answers and it’s weak on the ground, how did you arrive at this conclusion? And, why are you so scared of the ground that you feel the need to focus so much time on this element of fighting?
Loaded questions, grasshopper.
how did you arrive at this conclusion?
Various viewpoints have been done to death on this forum and are proceeding at present on several threads.
And, why are you so scared of the ground that you feel the need to focus so much time on this element of fighting?
I’m not scared of the ground. It’s never done anything to me.
Why are you so scared of viewpoints you disagree with?
Like Andrew, I’m not scared of the ground – in fact, it can be loads of fun. But, I’ve seen firsthand what good groundfighters can do; just like I’ve seen what folks with really good takedown skills can do. What I have not seen is any of the “WCK has the answers on the ground” group actually prove that they have any skills on the ground. So let me ask you, how did you arrive at the conclusion that WCK is strong on the ground or has answers to good groundfighters? Let me guess – theory?
Good posts…Andrew, Terence.
I’m noticing the same thing…but to be honest…it’s because I KNOW wing chun has no ground game in comparision with people that specialize on the ground…it’s the fact that people don’t want to accept it that it’s still going. I just find it odd at how hard it is for others to admit it.
No one wants to be told that what they’re practicing is inferior or doesn’t have all the answers…deep down inside they simply don’t want that feeling that they’ve wasted their time or maybe they really do feel that their style has all the answers…sadly the latter is usually from people that have never fought enough to find out they’re wrong.
It’s not so much the BJJ or groundfighting as much as it is the principle of the matter behind it…the idea that quite possibly this one art doesn’t have all the answers .
I have no problem with the fact that WC doesn’t address the ground game. Who does? Why is this such an important discovery? Arn’t we stateing the obvious?
we are stating the obvious…some people here seem to think otherwise. That’s where it all began.
Re: Why so scared of the ground?
Originally posted by chisauking
may I ask all the people who’s constantly repeating that WC don’t have all the answers and it’s weak on the ground, how did you arrive at this conclusion?
From experience.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Good posts…Andrew, Terence.
Off course, typical behavior and reinforcement of those in the click.
James
Off course, typical behavior and reinforcement of those in the click.
You meant “of course” and “clique”, right?
Do you have a counterargument, or is ad hominem the best you can do?
Originally posted by anerlich
[B]You meant “of course” and “clique”, right?
Do you have a counterargument, or is ad hominem the best you can do? [/B]
Thanks for the grammar lesson MOUTH BOXER. Typical Anerlich behavior, with the spelling and grammar checks but nothing meant personally right? As usual. Why don’t you counter argue for me since you do know it all, or represent yourself to.
No counterargument required, just an obvious observation by some, but glad to see you to coming up to support your comrades.
James
Re: Why so scared of the ground?
Originally posted by chisauking
Before this forum turns into the official BJJ forum, may I ask all the people who’s constantly repeating that WC don’t have all the answers and it’s weak on the ground, how did you arrive at this conclusion? And, why are you so scared of the ground that you feel the need to focus so much time on this element of fighting?
—Even though I have been labeled as a “non-fighter” and “theoretician” by some (despite the fact that I gear up and spar as realistically as feasible on occasion), I try to keep a balanced outlook on things. Wong Shun Leung called WCK “The Science of In-fighting.” That’s a pretty good description. It points out that WCK is a specialized fighting method…it is meant for the “in-fighting” range. It is not and was never meant to be an “all-inclusive” method. We don’t have extended stances and long kicks to fight on the outside like TKD does. We don’t have extensive ground-fighting techniques to fight on the ground like BJJ does. Systems that try to be all-inclusive often end up being a “jack of all trades but master of none.” Sure there are WCK techniques or concepts that can be extrapolated to work on the outside range…or on the ground. But are WCK ground-fighting methods going to be as good as something like BJJ? Heck no! That is there specialty…not ours! Is BJJ going to be as good as WCK on the inside (standing)? Heck no! That is our specialty…not theirs! I see nothing wrong with a WCK player that wants to expand their repertoire also training in BJJ. Heck, if I had more time for training I’d be doing it myself! But I would keep it as two separate things…WCK when on my feet…BJJ the minute I hit the ground! It is the “blending” that I don’t think is necessary. The combining of things like WCK and boxing to work in a range in which WCK is already designed to operate. Develop your WCK. If you want to be proficient in another range or phase of fighting, then cross-train in something that works that range. But don’t “mix & match”…you’ll just end up with a “mash.” For me, I have my hands full just trying to develop my WCK to its full potential! Just my opinion, of course. 
Keith
KPM wrote:
—Even though I have been labeled as a “non-fighter” and “theoretician” by some (despite the fact that I gear up and spar as realistically as feasible on occasion),
**The fact that you “gear up and spar on occasion” is good (it’s better than nothing) but so do the silat guys, the shotokan guys, etc. Occasionally sparring with one’s classmates isn’t what I’ve been talking about – it’s making fighting, actually doing WCK, the core of one’s training. That’s something else.
I try to keep a balanced outlook on things. Wong Shun Leung called WCK “The Science of In-fighting.” That’s a pretty good description. It points out that WCK is a specialized fighting method…it is meant for the “in-fighting” range. It is not and was never meant to be an “all-inclusive” method. We don’t have extended stances and long kicks to fight on the outside like TKD does. We don’t have extensive ground-fighting techniques to fight on the ground like BJJ does. Systems that try to be all-inclusive often end up being a “jack of all trades but master of none.”
**But the point is we need to be a “jack of all trades” – that is, a well-rounded fighter – if we want to fight successfully against skilled well-rounded fighters (or even “defend” ourselves on the street).
Sure there are WCK techniques or concepts that can be extrapolated to work on the outside range…or on the ground. But are WCK ground-fighting methods going to be as good as something like BJJ? Heck no! That is there specialty…not ours! Is BJJ going to be as good as WCK on the inside (standing)? Heck no! That is our specialty…not theirs!
**I agree.
I see nothing wrong with a WCK player that wants to expand their repertoire also training in BJJ. Heck, if I had more time for training I’d be doing it myself! But I would keep it as two separate things…WCK when on my feet…BJJ the minute I hit the ground! It is the “blending” that I don’t think is necessary. The combining of things like WCK and boxing to work in a range in which WCK is already designed to operate. Develop your WCK. If you want to be proficient in another range or phase of fighting, then cross-train in something that works that range. But don’t “mix & match”…you’ll just end up with a “mash.” For me, I have my hands full just trying to develop my WCK to its full potential! Just my opinion, of course.
**The only flaw in your position is that IME whenever you take two methods and integrate them into your personal game, each will in some ways, perhaps minor but perhaps significantly, effect the other and result in changes in both. In other words, your WCK will change how you do (or use) BJJ and your BJJ will change how you do (or use) your WCK. This doesn’t mean that your WCK or your BJJ is “watered down” or “less pure”; it means that you do with each what you are supposed to do – take it and make it your own.
No answer
I’d asked a very simple question yet not one is willing to answer.
If you think it’s so important to focus so much time on the ground – why? Was your decision based on personal experience? Was it based on club sparring with rules or actual street fighting experience? Have you or have you not been taken down to the ground in a real fight, and what level of WC skills were you at that stage?
If you people don’t want to answer, that OK. I’m not going to upset anybody’s chip or pasta plate. But, it’s just a shame to see this once constructive Wing Chun forum turn into the sister BJJ forum for self promotion
chisauking,
Actually, you received a few good answers, one of them was “experience,” another was “I’ve seen what a good groundfighter can do,” another was “I think we should be well-rounded fighters.”
You chose to ignore those answers and follow up with further questions. Not their fault.
chisauking,
Apparently you didn’t read my post – I told you the basis of my opinion: experience. I’ve seen firsthand what skilled groundfighters can do, what persons skilled in takedowns can do. I’ve seen this, as well as experienced it myself, while fighting. By “real fights” do you mean streetfights? Assaults? What?
I find it interesting that you used the phrase “club sparring with rules or actual street fighting experience” – that demonstrates one of the major fallacies associated with “streetfighting”: the negative effect of “rules”, or limitations on what you can do.
First of all, there are always limitations, or rules, even in streetfights – unless one wants to go to prison. For example, one can’t use deadly force unless one’s assailant does (typically we’re limited to the same level of force our opponent uses). So if he swings at you and you crush his windpipe or gouge an eye, you’re going to prison. For me, that’s not much of a “self-defense”; I’d rather get hit than go to prison! Some of those rules as imposed by society and some by ourselves (what we believe is ethical or moral).
And while rules or limitations can restrict us from actually using our method (for example, a wrestler trying to fight in a kickboxing tournament), “no rules” or NHB fights typically allow any and all methods but just limit the “dirt” or “foul tactics” (like eye gouges, etc.). They refllect, if you bother to look at most “streetfights”, how fights typically “look” (fwiw, I’ve been in a few streetfights and never been eye-gouged or fish-hooked.). Some may believe that those restrictions prohibit them from really using their “deadly” fighting skills. But the reality is just the opposite is true – these restrictions actually help us develop our fighting skills since we can practice nondirt realistically.
No one really “practices” that dirt realistically, i.e., really puts them into their fighting practice (you can’t without harming your training partner). So they never really develop them. At best they do them as sort of a mock-defense. On the other hand, by removing the “dirt”, one can practice (fight) full-out as one really would do it, and thus they develop better skill doing those things. Removing the dirt actually permits us to practice realistically and develop greater skill; it’s a strength rather than a weakness. This has been proven over and over again by experience.
What that means is that the dirt is theory – it is never really done as it is meant to be done: one practices mock eye jabs and pretends it will land, that it will have the proscribed effect, etc. But what dirt does is provide theoreticians excuses for not fighitng (“I would, but I’d have to kill you”). What they will find if they ever give themselves a chance, is that good fighters easily deal wtih the dirt (in fact, I love it when folks give me the “I will only mix it up if I can use my deadly techniques” routine; I know that means they have no fighting skill. Typically, I’ll tell them to by all means use them since I know that means they’ll be trying to fight with things they’ve never developed! It just makes it easier for me.).
Tactics are context/situation specific; our fighting skills are not. If I can deal with a punch in the ring, I can deal wtih it in the street. The venue doesn’t matter. The difference is the tactics – in the ring I may continue to fight whereas in the street I may hit and then run. Different tactics for different situations; the skills remain the same.
For those that cling to the notion of dirt, let me ask you this: do you rely on it? Would removing it really change how you express your WCK? Can you deal with a punch without it? And that’s what I mean by the skills being unrelated to the venue. Can anyone say, “I can deal with a punch in the street but not in the gym?”
Certainly there are aspects/elements on the street that make it potentially more dangerous than the gym. But our core fighting skills work in both. And, how can anyone believe that they need less skill in a more potentially dangerous situation. Swimming in the ocean is more dangerous than swimming in a pool; but if you can’t swim well in a pool, you’re not going to fare well in the ocean.
Experience may differ
Merry, T-niehoff, KF:
EXPERIENCE. But that’s what I’m trying to ask: what experience? What were your wing chun or fighting proficiency at that stage of experince?
We ALL have experience, but how and where that experience came from is the most telling.
“Before this forum turns into the official BJJ forum, may I ask all the people who’s constantly repeating that WC don’t have all the answers and it’s weak on the ground, how did you arrive at this conclusion? And, why are you so scared of the ground that you feel the need to focus so much time on this element of fighting?”
Do you do anything more than a right handed vertical thrust punch?
Do you always drink only the same beverage, same brand, same amount day in, day out?
Have you always owned exactly the same make, model, and color of car year after year, and never driven anything else?
Some people may be hyper-focused on only one technique.
Some only want one form.
Some only stick to one system, many forms.
Some only do martial arts, many systems.
Some only fight, whether its MA or back yard brawls.
Personally, if I’d only ever done one MA, I’d never have encountered WCK. It was my 4th art.
If I’d never done anything else, I’d be bored.
If I’d never done anything else, I’d have missed a lot of other experiences, good and bad.
Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]“Before this forum turns into the official BJJ forum, may I ask all the people who’s constantly repeating that WC don’t have all the answers and it’s weak on the ground, how did you arrive at this conclusion? And, why are you so scared of the ground that you feel the need to focus so much time on this element of fighting?”
Do you do anything more than a right handed vertical thrust punch?
Do you always drink only the same beverage, same brand, same amount day in, day out?
Have you always owned exactly the same make, model, and color of car year after year, and never driven anything else?
Some people may be hyper-focused on only one technique.
Some only want one form.
Some only stick to one system, many forms.
Some only do martial arts, many systems.
Some only fight, whether its MA or back yard brawls.
Personally, if I’d only ever done one MA, I’d never have encountered WCK. It was my 4th art.
If I’d never done anything else, I’d be bored.
If I’d never done anything else, I’d have missed a lot of other experiences, good and bad. [/B]
What Rene said is HUGE. I don’t know how many people here have trained previously in some other MA and then joined up in WC. I know I have and everyone in my kwoon, including my Sifu has a background of some kind.
I would have missed a lot of good and bad experiences too. Other martial arts have opened my eyes to what else is out there. And given me the ultimate appreciation for WC.
Sincerely,
Couch
chisaoking,
My POV is that we need to find these things out for ourselves – from our own experience by doing it – instead of relying on the chronicles of my experience (which only makes it theory to you). Go out and mix it up with a good groundfighter (being able to do it against your WCK traiing partners doesn’t mean it will be effective against a good groundfighter). See what you can do. It’s notable that everyone that I know in WCK who has done this comes away with similar views. What I’ve yet to see is anyone in WCK who says WCK training provides significant ground skills and is willing to step up and prove/demonstrate it (like by going to the local BJJ club and showing how they manhandle those guys – which if they can do it, doesn’t seem to be asking much). This is my whole point,: so many opinions are based on conjecture, hearsay, etc. (theory) and so few on personal experience (evidence).