CSK,
Put your ego on hold and go and roll at a bjj school. Dollars to donuts you will get owned by even the blue belts. Granted you you would be ‘playing their game’ but it is a very good game - limitations of the street (syringes, hot coals, bottomless pits, wild animals:p) notwithstanding.
Re: Experience may differ
Originally posted by chisauking
EXPERIENCE. But that’s what I’m trying to ask: what experience? What were your wing chun or fighting proficiency at that stage of experince?
I was a freestyle/folkstyle wrestler before I began learning the striking aspects of fighting. My expereince was that I could take down almost any striker (assuming he didn’t also have a background in wrestling), take him out of his game, and usually dominate him on the ground- both in real fights and in training. An this was just from having a sport wrestlng background. Back then, I knew nothing of submsissions or how to set up good postions for ground striking.
I didn’t actually understand the power of grappling until I had after I had trained for quite a while with people who trained only in striking.
CSK
there is only fear and speculation of the unknown
once you do it you see it’s not a big deal
i am not a ground guy at all
but have spent time with guys that are , at first i was scared , and didn’t know what tapping out was , this bfire wing chun
i got my neck pinned against some guys chest and he cranked on me until i passed out , hurt like hell for a few days , i was a bit of a body builder at the time and it was a little dude that messed me up
next time i went back [ it was my firnds school across the street from my gym ] i got my shoulder cranked i hated it all things that had to do with BJJ
later after i started to train in WC and other things
i played with a friend that does those tap out cage matches
he could not take me down and when we started from a ground position i held my own and could get up
now we were not fighting just working out
but i felt he this ground stuff is nothing no big deal
a few years later i messed around with my friend rob who is not ranked but is very good on the ground and he was real slow and heavy just shut me down like a boa
i thought hmmm what a min. since i knew rob was even better standing this mix of skills make me think
messed with some collage wrestlers and got shot on with amazing speed and power
the game got more interesting
then i sparred vale tudo guys and again did very good standing and on the ground
they even complimented my sensitivity and elusivness
the more time i worked out with guys like this the more relaxed and i got and the more skills i gained from standing came through in some basic way on the ground
or more so on the way to the ground [ the tumble alot of fun stuff can happen there ]
so do i fear the ground no am i training on the ground no
do i have respect for the bad things that can happen there
yes
just gain experience and do your best to learn from every thing life hands you ,
you are still you standing ,sitting , or on the ground
the more control over you that you have based on experience the better you will become
so the real question is not about this or that art
but why are people afraid of getting to know themselves
not a bad post ernie
I kind of agree
I’ve heard it said a bunch of times
“the guy who loses is the one who runs out of time.”
the grappler might not take you down in time before he gets knocked out.
or the Bi-pedalist fighter might get taken down before he can attack.
we have all had bad days
we have all had good days
you just gotta figure out one thing
what end of the a$$ kicking are you on today?
Thanks for the grammar lesson MOUTH BOXER. Typical Anerlich behavior, with the spelling and grammar checks but nothing meant personally right? As usual.
You accused me of being in a click [sic] with Terence and Victor. Nothing personal, right?
You accuse me of being a mouth boxer - nothing personal, right?
Your problems with spelling and grammar may relate to your inability to accept in yourself the faults you seem keen to decry in others.
But, nothing personal. 
Put your head in the Lion’s jaw
Why so scared of the ground?
I was so intrigued by so many ‘skillful’ wing chun practitioners that understood fully its principles state
that wing chun was weak on the ground, I wanted to know the source of your fighting expereicnes that warranted
you to form such a statement. As we all know, experiences may differ depending on how that expereince was
aquired. In other words, different test yeilds different results. But, more importantly, the way and environment
of how you conducted the test would determine the ‘truth’ of your expereince. For example, fighting in a
club environment, wearing proctective equipment from head to toe, would yield expereince of real fighting
close to a lie. That’s the reason why I’d asked about people’s expereince – so that I may understand your
opinion on the need for ground grappling and to help me ascertain your true fighting experience.
As to my own personal expereince, ground grappling has never been an issue with me for the simple fact that
I have only been taken to the ground maybe a few times – but I’d no problems getting back up. Due to my
upbringing and my present occupation (running 2 pubs) I have had more than my fair share of fights, to the
point that I’m now well versed in the international language of PAIN! Ah, but I have never fought any one
skillful, and they were all useless scubs – as Terence would say. Fair enough, I’m a nobody so my
expereince doesn’t count. But to all the others that claim wing chun is weak on the ground from personal
experience – but not real combat experience – consider the following…
Debt collectors: I know 2 associates that do debt collecting for Birmingham’s Chinese loan sharks. Their
names are Twan and Kwan Lee. 1 practice Muay Thai, and the other Tong-long. Due to the nature of the type
of people that borrows money from loan sharks(very desperate people), Kwan and Twan knows fisrt hand how
difficult it’s to try a take things from people that have nothing. I have sparred with both of them
without breaking sweat, but they both stated that in all the fights they have had, very few go on the
ground.
Military: Because of my pub’s proximity to the S.A.S H.Q. in Herefordshire, and also where I train my
helicopter flying is sometimes used by the S.A.S, I get to talk to some of the most expereinced fighters
in the world. In fact, arguably, they are the best train soldiers in the world. Just to give you an
idea how tough they are, they have to complete a 40miles run with a full backpack weighing 60lbs+ for
their test. They have had more real combat experience then anybody on this forum. However, when I got to
know some of them, they stated that most unarmed fights don’t go to the ground.
Wing Chun Clan: Not one single 9th generation wing chun practitioner has observed or stated that wing chun
was weak on the ground. Maybe they ALL coundn’t fight or too proud to admit wing chun was weak on the
ground.
Wing Chun fighter:The late Derek Jones was probably the most active wing chun fighter in his time, from
the UK. He used to come in the kwoon with cuts and brusies all over from fighting in gipsy bare knuckle fights. He never
backed down from any challenges, and when he accepted a challenge, he would go on his own(unlike so many
other so-called fighters that need to take all their crew). Strange, such an effective fighter never ever
taken a single class in ground fighting?
Professional Martial artist from differnt styles:Steven Benitez from Silat has said ground grappling isn’t
as important as some people from NHB make out. Sken and Toddy – 2 of the most succesful MT trainers ever,
producing world champoin after world champion – has never needed to suppliment their training with
ground grappling. Mo Teague – ex military, ex guardain angle, Sambo instructor, BJJ practitioner, bouncer
with 100’s of street fight expereince, representing Richard Bustillo, Rick Faye, etc., has openly
stated that very FEW fights actaully go to the ground. When asked why he practised BJJ, he said it was FUN.
I could go on and on, but do you see a pattern or a common denominator here? People who do fighting for real,
for their living, are saying that most fights don’t go on the ground. Why do their experience differ from
yours? Could it be that they are ALL lying?
So who is actually saying that 90 – or is that 95% – of all fights go on the ground? Is it just some wing chun practitioners and the Gracies?
And that’s the whole point of my post – if most fights don’t end on the ground (besides the loser, that is)
why spend so much time on ground grappling?
For my part, I personally beleive that wing chun is extremely strong on the ground, in that it prevents it
happening in the first place. In the same way, if you want safer flying, you don’t give all the passengers
parachutes. You make the plane more reliable to begin with. If you want to drive safer, you don’t practice
advasive action. You would instill good driving practice to begin with. In other words, prevention is better
than cure. Some people would still say: what happens IF it goes to the ground? I would ask: what happens if
you got poked in the eye, finger locked, hair pulled, neck locked, knee stomped?
Rene Sez: Do you do anything more than a right handed vertical thrust punch?
Do you always drink only the same beverage, same brand, same amount day in, day out?
Have you always owned exactly the same make, model, and color of car year after year, and never driven anything else?
Some people may be hyper-focused on only one technique.
Some only want one form.
Some only stick to one system, many forms.
Some only do martial arts, many systems.
Some only fight, whether its MA or back yard brawls.
Personally, if I’d only ever done one MA, I’d never have encountered WCK. It was my 4th art.
If I’d never done anything else, I’d be bored.
If I’d never done anything else, I’d have missed a lot of other experiences, good and bad.
Rene: I think you have missed my point again. It could be my poor English, so you have to excuse me for that.
I didn’t say don’t practice BJJ. I didn’t say it was rubbish. The point of my post is to get people to
question the honesty of their experience, and I for one don’t beleive ground graplling is as nearly as
important as some people on this forum make out.
In a real fight, far more things are more likely to effect you than being taken to the ground, yet why so
much time is focused disportionally to its threat? If you enjoy BJJ, then say so. Don’t deride another system just to justify
your particpation in it. This is not targeted at you, but in general.
I have never ever gone against learning from all sources because I don’t beleive in limiting my fighting
knowledge. However, even you can’t deny that there are things in life that just don’t go together. For
example, dim sum and custard; or hot dog and salt and vinegar. Wing Chun is a very specailised style, and for the people
that really understands its concept and principles, it’ not a style that can be choped and changed and mixed
and match as easily as other styles. For wing chun to be at its most effective, you must try to adhere to its
basic princples. No matter how you try to justify it, it’s next to impossible to integrate wing chun with
BJJ and keep its core princples.
As the old saying goes: sometimes more is less
Tell me something I don’t know
Nick Sez: Put your ego on hold and go and roll at a bjj school. Dollars to donuts you will get owned by even the blue belts. Granted you you would be ‘playing their game’ but it is a very good game - limitations of the street (syringes, hot coals, bottomless pits, wild animals) notwithstanding.
Nick, go to any Chinese restaurant and the chef would be able to cook Chinese food better than you. Go to any French teacher and they be able to speak French better than you. If you let someone put you in a finger lock, you are going to have broken fingers. Let someone kick you in the knee with full power, and you are going to have damaged knee. What’s your point? That I should fight in a manner that my opponent knows best? Why don’t I just bombared him with my powerful kicks when he reaches for my leg?
Re: Tell me something I don’t know
Originally posted by chisauking
[B]Nick Sez: Put your ego on hold and go and roll at a bjj school. Dollars to donuts you will get owned by even the blue belts. Granted you you would be ‘playing their game’ but it is a very good game - limitations of the street (syringes, hot coals, bottomless pits, wild animals) notwithstanding.
Nick, go to any Chinese restaurant and the chef would be able to cook Chinese food better than you. Go to any French teacher and they be able to speak French better than you. If you let someone put you in a finger lock, you are going to have broken fingers. Let someone kick you in the knee with full power, and you are going to have damaged knee. What’s your point? That I should fight in a manner that my opponent knows best? Why don’t I just bombared him with my powerful kicks when he reaches for my leg? [/B]
Total agreement here chisauking, why play their game and fight their fight. It’s always the same on this forum “Yeah but when this or that happens and he sets up his mount with the single leg Blah blah blah”, in the meantime he has nothing to deal with from me right? Lol. For every “What if” that comes out of people’s keyboards on this forum, it can be reversed. Any good fighter should take his opponent down quickly, just due to the fact that neither fighter will know what the others skills are. And since WC is a “fast” system, meaning it was develop to be fast, not the individual being fast, there’s a difference, the idea is always to overwhelm your opponent with severe pressure that is hard to handle and make them very reactive, and not proactive. I remember someone on here saying that the chain punches of WC don’t work, then a few days later I find a clip of Vitor Belfort using that very same technique (not exactly the same since he uses horizontal fists and boxing technique but very similar) to knock out Vanderlia Silva to which most consider one of the best stand up middleweight NHB fighters around in 45 seconds, very quick.
James
“Before this forum turns into the official BJJ forum, may I ask all the people who’s constantly repeating that WC don’t have all the answers and it’s weak on the ground, how did you arrive at this conclusion? And, why are you so scared of the ground that you feel the need to focus so much time on this element of fighting?”
How did I arrive at these conclusions? Experience.
Who’s scared of the ground? You are, chisauking.
I’m going to make a rough estimate that I have either been in or witnessed somewhere between 40 and 50 streetfights total.
The 90-95% rule has held true in my experiences. That figure is about the percentage of every fight that I have been in or witnessed that have ended up on the ground… and about 90-95% of those that went to the ground were either won or lost there.
Very similar numbers for me in terms of what I’ve seen or done - and I would say that about 75% of the time the fights went to the ground and were won or lost there.
That’s alot.
So whether we’re talkin’ 75-85-95 %…it’s still quite a bit.
Does that mean that they always go there?
No.
But being prepared for the ground is of paramount importance.
Because most of the time that is what’s going to happen.
I just taught a groundfighting class last Wednesday afternoon ranging from defending the shoot and from being mounted, all using WC technqiue and principal/concepts. So yes I agree, in today’s world you have to be prepared for the possibility of a ground confrontation, that’s why we prepare for it in class, as well as all other ranges of combat.
James
“I really love it when a guy who didn’t know what a sprawl was until a couple of weeks ago thinks he has a complete fighting system.”
It’s just SO worth repeating…
Originally posted by sihing
I just taught a groundfighting class last Wednesday afternoon ranging from defending the shoot and from being mounted, all using WC technqiue and principal/concepts.
James,
I’d love to hear your take on defending the mount from a WC perspective. Please share.
I just taught how to dis arm a nuclear war head with wing chun concept saw it on MacGyver once 
sorry James it was like when you see the clean shot to the head guy has his hands down and you fake and kick him in the nuts just to be evil
messing with you man:cool:
I don’t remember who it was that said it on here, but wing chun is not ground fighting, never will be. Sure it has techniques that might save you, techniques that are based on standup fighting (but can transpose to other ranges since it is after all…striking)but things specifically taylored for the ground? Don’t think so.
So yes…some elaboration is in order here…specific elaboration so that we may all be enlightened to make all our wing chun as good as yours.
How does one elaborate on a written forum like this so all could understand? Basically to keep it simple, against the shoot, we use a side neutral stance at the non contact stage/range, with the feet slightly wider than shoulder width, heels in line and side by side (like a basketball player defending his zone or someone returning serve in tennis), with the feet/knees/hips/shoulders pointed towards a 45deg. angle, depending on the lead arm, so if the right arm is lead the direction of angle is left. With this stance your lateral movement from side to side is superior than when in the traditional lead foot forward stance. I like to use the Matador vs. Bull metaphor, so when the person shooting towards you comes in, we move sideways or by T-stepping or back stepping all the way while simultaneously controlling the arm and neck or just the neck of the “shooter”, maintaining close space with him, leading him to the ground, following up with many different things. Also a variety of hand movements (pak sao, kan sao, low bon sao, or combo of each one) meant to deflect/attack can be applied to vital neck areas, to disrupt his momentum, and control him while stepping in the proper direction.
As for when one is mounted, one has to guard the center mass so the attacks are coming in on the outside. Using dbl Tan sao to protect the face and neck/head, one would deflect the attacks by turning left or right to “face the point of contact” of the blows. Once a opening is seen/felt (utlizing chi-sao attributes) many things can be done, lop sao side strike to the neck, dbl palm strikes to chest/neck areas, neck chin na, muscle grabbing, pressure point useage, etc…Once the momentum is in your favor you attempt to reverse the positions and mount your aggressor.
All of the above are not magical techniques that just work for the hell of it. Practice is essential, to develop the right feel, timing and essence of what one is trying to do.
I do agree that WC does not specialized in “Ground Grappling”, but it does encompass Anti Grappling movements to help one, at the least, defend themselves when faced with a ground grappler.
You play their game your chances of winning are slim, so why would I want to do that?
I’ll try to get some of these clips up also someday soon.
James
Originally posted by sihing
Once a opening is seen/felt (utlizing chi-sao attributes) many things can be done, lop sao side strike to the neck, dbl palm strikes to chest/neck areas, neck chin na,
James- you really are doing your students a disservice by teaching them things like this. These are things that are set-ups for a variety of arm locks for the person who has the top mounted position. These are some of the first things you learn not to do in BJJ and some of the first things you look to attack against an unknowing person on the ground.
Lets be honest, if you cant handle yourself on the ground you cant handle yourself. Grappling is one of the most important ranges for the simple reasone that it is visceral and it happens.
I used to do WT but found not only did i like mma/bjj but that it was just as logical and strategic as wt. I’ve seen amazing things from bjj folks-superb ways to dump someone on the ground when they are standing over you, simple things that will prevent or jam their ability to punch you if they are on top of you.
I think we all understand the idea that they concentrate on what they do and wt/wc folks do what they do. But bjj is such a sophisticated martial art and I think most wt/wc people would not only enjoy it but LOVE it. Its focus on tehnique and leverage over strength and size sounds much like another sytem i heard extoll those virtues…