Wing Chun on the ground

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Let’s keep the wanking to a minimum and maybe use this thread to actually discuss some useful stuff.

Hey KF,

the signal-to-noise ratio here is getting kinda out of control- we may need a separate thread for this. Nonetheless, I’m curious what you think Wing Chun can be good for on the ground.

Principle-wise there are a lot of things that cross over in terms of body use and frame (which, I’ll grant, most WC people don’t have standing), but there are some specific bits of technique that stand out, too.

A few things to start-

1). If you can’t move the other person, move your self.
2). Push
3). Constant pressure from the hips- which you can use to move the other person, or to try to flow around them
4). Stay relaxed- not floppy, not dead, calm and neutral- until you can feel the moment you need to explode
5). Move behind your bone structure- aka ‘lan’- create a frame of a piece of skeleton that redirects force but allows you some motion behind it- the standard forearm across the shoulder and chest to make room in side control in order to shrimp is the same thing/idea as lan (barring arm) and kwan (rolling arm)- fix a point (bar the door) so the other guy can’t pass it, then move behind that pressure (kwan)
6). Grab and push- the basic lop where you don’t pull, but press with hand control- nice for striking control from any top position.

There are some more specifics and probably some more principles I’ll think of later, but here’s a start.

Andrew

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Andrew S- FWIW I have zero problems with your good post.
Joy

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Repost from the other thread…

Andrew-
I’ll share my experiences about using WC techniques on the ground (both good and bad), but furst, I’d like to hear the technical descriptions from those who feel that WC techniques can be applied on the ground.

I think my experiences will be enlightening.

4

All right - I’ll bite and give it a shot from my limited experience to describe what I feel are principles and/or techniques that exist in WCK that can be translated to, applied or utilized in groundfighting.

Principles:

Intent - Constant pressure toward opponent’s center - in WCK working from a bridge or even in chi sau, the idea is to get a superior position inside the opponent’s reaction time and space and pursue the advantage, driving the opponent backwards. In groundfighting, the same principle applies to obtain advantageous positions and control the opponent, driving backwards into the opponent, through and into the ground for top positions.

Centerline - in WCK the most direct path is a straight line to target. Control of centerline is paramount. All WCK blocks and strikes are designed to capitalize on centerline control. In grappling, arms/legs that travel too far off of center - arms crossed over center or flying out wide of center, are prime targets to attack for submission holds. Elbows in tight are better defensively. I’m sure there’s a lot more here on this principle.

Techniques:

Vertical / Chain punch - in my opinion is the best punching attack from the mount. Power is generated from hips, is direct and straight, has maximum impact. Large, looping punches over the top give more space/momentum to bump into a trap & bridge/roll escape.

Elbows - again from the mount, the elbow strikes over the top are effective in combination with punches.

Biu sau / Gan sau - when mounted, these blocks are better than covering up because contact with the striking arm happens further out, so can absorb more power and give more opportunity for trapping the striking arm. Have to be careful leaving one dangling - it can be picked off and submitted via arm bar or keylock.

Rgds,
Dave

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Re: Repost from the other thread…

Originally posted by Knifefighter
[B]Andrew-
I’ll share my experiences about using WC techniques on the ground (both good and bad), but furst, I’d like to hear the technical descriptions from those who feel that WC techniques can be applied on the ground.

I think my experiences will be enlightening. [/B]

I bet it will be :rolleyes:

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What wing chun actually (aside from EBMAS and LT) actually have groundwork? Wherein they are actually on the ground working with people who are good…on the ground?

In any case…lets look at something even more simple then the typical lin wan kuen, or gan, biu or whatever…what does wing chun have in terms of positioning on the ground? That is the first thing you learn on the ground is to gain good position and retain it…and to escape from bad positioning…so what does wing chun offer there…forget the punching if and elbows and biu sao’s for now…

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In any case…lets look at something even more simple then the typical lin wan kuen, or gan, biu or whatever…what does wing chun have in terms of positioning on the ground? That is the first thing you learn on the ground is to gain good position and retain it…and to escape from bad positioning…so what does wing chun offer there…forget the punching if and elbows and biu sao’s for now…

I have seen counters to takedowns, working from the back - kicks and stripping of grips, and standing up protected.

I have not seen a systematic approach to ground work like the 6 basic positions in BJJ, transition between the positions, submissions and strikes from each position, escapes and counters from each position, rips/dirty techniques specific to positions, or consistent testing in stressed environments of any of the above.

Has anyone else?

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Wing Chun is a pugilistic art that works best at very close range.Chi Sau and Chi Gerk training can provide good control of an opponent in a quasi-clinch range.Grabs that could lead to grappling can be nullified.Short punches,palms low kicks,elbows,knees,even headbutts are the main arsenal at this distance.Wing Chun can make somebody very dangerous to approach if it is used accordingly to it’s principles.

IMO,the basic ground stuff can be learned as emergency techniques it is not such a big deal.

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No OJ it’s not such a big deal and one can learn it in a relatively short time…that’s why I can’t seem to understand one simple thing…

Why no one on here can just friggin admit that wing chun simply does not have any ground game. Period. It’s like the people here are almost afraid…as if they’re going to turn to dust the minute they say : “no…wing chun does not have any training in “this” area of fighting.”

I’ve been waiting and waiting and waiting…but people keep coming up with “waaaah…what about this or that or this or that…it has everything because my daddy told me it does…you just have to find it!” I grow weary of those who just can’t admit something soooo simple, all because they don’t want to have to go outside their bubble to gain the proper information.

And sorry if any one person takes this to heart…but the first one offended by it…is probably the one most afraid of admitting it.

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And another thing…

Wing chun as good as it is…does need supplementation, because as OJ just said himself…

Wing Chun is a pugilistic art that works best at very close range.Chi Sau and Chi Gerk training can provide good control of an opponent in a quasi-clinch range.Grabs that could lead to grappling can be nullified.Short punches,palms low kicks,elbows,knees,even headbutts are the main arsenal at this distance.Wing Chun can make somebody very dangerous to approach if it is used accordingly to it’s principles.

It works in THAT range. Anything else in fighting needs to be found elsewhere.

See…I didn’t turn to dust because I said it…so now it’s safe for you all to as well!

Have a nice day ya’ll!

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I hate the ground

Hello,

I hate going to the ground, period :eek: When I was doing Judo I used to get yelled at because I would perform a throw and then step back, let my oppenent get back to his feet and then throw them again. Unfortunately this was frowned upon during competition so I did end up doing some ground work. But, I still hate it!!! I get very uncomfortable on the ground thinking about the possible buddies standing around waiting to attack me while I am preoccupied with their friend, on the ground. Plus it is dirty down there and I would need to bathe more often after rolling around on the ground. Egads! I might even need to use soap!!

Seriously though, if I can ever be serious :wink:

Sifu Chung Kwok Chow has integrated BJJ and other ground fighting into his system of Wing Chun. He has a new DVD out, which I have not seen, addressing just this aspect of Wing Chun/Ground Fighting. So there are others besides Emin and LT exploring this area and making it a part of their system of Wing Chun. But, to my understanding this is always the result of bringing something from outside the system into it. For more info you can visit Sifu Chows site at: www.sifuchowwingchun.com

Peace,

Dave

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Originally posted by Vankuen
[B]No OJ it’s not such a big deal and one can learn it in a relatively short time…that’s why I can’t seem to understand one simple thing…

Why no one on here can just friggin admit that wing chun simply does not have any ground game. Period. It’s like the people here are almost afraid…as if they’re going to turn to dust the minute they say : “no…wing chun does not have any training in “this” area of fighting.”

I’ve been waiting and waiting and waiting…but people keep coming up with “waaaah…what about this or that or this or that…it has everything because my daddy told me it does…you just have to find it!” I grow weary of those who just can’t admit something soooo simple, all because they don’t want to have to go outside their bubble to gain the proper information.

And sorry if any one person takes this to heart…but the first one offended by it…is probably the one most afraid of admitting it. [/B]

(This reply is also posted on another thread, but I thought it would apply here in specific response to Van’s above post.)

Basically back in 96’ people started asking what do you do when someone is shooting as an attack, instead of the usual punch or kick entry. Now, I’m not going to try and explain in detail exactly every technique Sifu taught because it would be impractical here on this forum, but maybe I can get some footage of that stuff too and put it up sometime. Basically, when standing in the side neutral stance, which is the non contact stage stance that we use in our WC (basically one is standing square on with your opponent, like a basketball player defending his zone, but with the body turned either left or right on a 45 deg angle depending on the lead arm), and having the opponents foot/knee always (or as best as one can) down the center of one’s stance, this allows great lateral movement. When one shoots for our lower extremities, and since there is no lead leg to grab, it is first a longer distance to travel to get at the leg or hip or whatever body part the shooter is try to grab, therefore the defender has a bit more time to react. Also the attacker is projecting his energy forward, or forward at an angle, us as defenders have to interpret quickly in which side of the body the shooter is going for if not down the center. Again because we have superior lateral movement from side to side, we basically use the Matador philosophy to let the person pass us by, but at the same time we can either attack & control the opponent by using a variety of hand movements (low Bil Sao, Kan sao, low pak sao, etc..) to various areas around the neck or behind the neck to attempt to control the opponent on his way down to the ground, all the while maintaining a close proximity to him to attack and dissolve most anything that comes from him.

As for being mounted, we try to force the opponent to strike us using round movements by protecting our centerlines (using double tan sao’s, similar to a move I saw Matt Thornton using on one of his tapes). At the right moment, utilizing skills learned in chi-sao and various other drills, one could apply a bil sao/lap sao combined with a side palm strike to the carotid artery or anywhere to the side of the neck or a Bil Gee to the eyes, quickly followed by another lap sao from the striking hand/forearm/fingers, with a hip upturn to possibly overturn the opponent, with us gaining mounting position. There are tons of things we can do, all from the WC we use, and one has to adapt to the situation as one see’s fit, as is the case we any real situation.

James

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Originally posted by old jong
Wing Chun is a pugilistic art that works best at very close range.
Well, so far, based on the evidence (all the videos that have been posted showing WC being used) and all the analyses of the majority of the forum posters (“just kickboxing”; “sloppy”; “no WC skills shown”; “very low level”), it doesn’t seem to work very well there either.

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WC and groundfighting

The first time I saw BJJ groundfightiing was about 1990. I was working out in a boxing gym and these guys came in and set up some mats. They were working from different positions on the ground. When I saw the guard and the mount, I immediately thought how gay the guard looked. Then I thought, “Hey, that’s the perfect position from which to work a chi sao -type approach. I’m pretty sure I could school them from there using chi sao techniques. I’ll bet they’ve never come across someone who knows WC. I think I could just pak, lop, bil, and blast my way right through those guys.”

A couple of years later, I decided to check out the Gracie Academy, where I finally got a chance to test out my theories. Needless to say, I was arm-barred, choked, and triangled all over the mat. I quickly discovered that my theories didn’t work against people who knew ground fighting and submissions.

Over the years I have learned a few things about my original theories:

  • Forget trying to use anything resembling these types of techniques when you are in the bottom mounted position. You will jus open yourself up for a world of hurt.
  • While some chi sao techniques can be used from the top mounted position, they often leave you open to be reversed and I believe there are much better ways to attack from there.
  • I also believe there are much better ways to work when in the bottom guard position.
  • There was one area where I was somewhat right in my initial thoughts. You can successfully use some of these techniques from inside the person’s guard to G&P or to open a tough closed guard, providing you are knowledgeable enough to avoid the bottom person’s submissions while doing so.
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Re: I hate the ground

Originally posted by Sihing73
. . . Sifu Chung Kwok Chow has integrated BJJ and other ground fighting into his system of Wing Chun. He has a new DVD out, which I have not seen, addressing just this aspect of Wing Chun/Ground Fighting. So there are others besides Emin and LT exploring this area and making it a part of their system of Wing Chun. But, to my understanding this is always the result of bringing something from outside the system into it. For more info you can visit Sifu Chows site at: www.sifuchowwingchun.com
Peace,
Dave

Hmmm, Didn’t the pole came from “outside” of WC?
PR

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I think I said that before

Hi Phil,

As already mentioned on a previous thread, I think I pointed out that the pole came from outside of the Wing Chun System. I think that it is necessary for our art to continously evolve to meet the needs and threats we may face today. There is nothing wrong, IMHO, with integrating things from outside of the system provided that they are used to enhance and build upon the foundation which has already been laid. I am sure that an examination of the training methods of any art/sport and even educational institution will show changes over time. If not then that entity is most likely on the way to extinction.

Peace,

Dave

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Andrew S’s initial post on this thread was a very constructive start.

But the discussions has gone off in different directions.

Some things forgotten in the noise.

Lots of systems have punches. But an experienced wing chun person’s punches are practiced differently.

Lots of systems have “saus” but wing chun open hand techniques also have their own details.

Same for some of the points touched on in Andew S’s post
and occasionally referred to elsewhere.
Shrimping, bridging, push-pull alternatives, moving yourself
, relaxing and exploding etc… can be done from different grappling perspectives
or from well practiced wing chun perspectives. The difference again is in the details… the nature of the engine, the gears, the wheels. And the devil is always in the details.

And cant depend ona specific technique because the other fella’s position etc has to be taken into account.

The wing chun person need not change his engine-there isnt time in a real crisis.

joy

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Vankuen wrote:

Why no one on here can just friggin admit that wing chun simply does not have any ground game. Period. It’s like the people here are almost afraid…as if they’re going to turn to dust the minute they say : “no…wing chun does not have any training in “this” area of fighting.”

**Well, that’s what I’ve been saying – WCK doesn’t have groundfighting, it doesn’t have the tools (techniques, strategies, etc.) to successfully work in that situation. Sure some WCK concepts will overlap with those of a good groundfighter, and some “techniques” will overlap, but the stuff you need to be successful on the ground, the meat and potatoes, just isn’t in the WCK method.

**Now it’s easy for folks to say that WCK does have groundfighting, but historically it was never taught, no one in WCK even talked about it until after the Cheung-Boztepe incident (when suddenly it appeard in both of those camps), and never became a big deal until after the Gracie/BJJ popularity. Moreover, all those folks that claim WCK does have groundfighting are theoreticians – they make that claim from theory, from conjecture, or from hearsay. None of them make it from personal experience, from having successfully fought a skilled groundfighter; none of them are willing to step up and mix it up with a skilled groundfighter to demonstrate their ability. It’s all theoretical BS.

Originally posted by old jong : Wing Chun is a pugilistic art that works best at very close range.

Knifefighter responded:

Well, so far, based on the evidence (all the videos that have been posted showing WC being used) and all the analyses of the majority of the forum posters (“just kickboxing”; “sloppy”; “no WC skills shown”; “very low level”), it doesn’t seem to work very well there either.

**Once again, old jong posts theory. You can almost always spot theory when it’s a general statement (like “WCK is . . .” ). I’m not saying his theory is wrong, but that it is theory – some claim. It’s a different matter to post your personal observations based on experience (I’ve found or my expression is or whatever).

**Finally, let me say this: whether you believe WCK has groundfighting (tools) or not, there is a second issue: have you developed them? Developing skill in groundfighting comes from groundfighting, and from actually groundfighting with skilled opponents. So even if we say for the sake of argument WCK has groudnfighting, unless you do it and do it against skilled opponents, it will remain undeveloped. So once again, for all those folks that claim WCK has groundfighting, like Joy, how much time do you spend fighting on the ground? Against whom? What is their level of groundfighting skill? Because even if you are correct and wCK has groundfighting, if you don’t put in the time fighting, it will remain theory to you. And if you have spent the time on the ground and have developed it, why not step up and prove it?

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Originally posted by old jong : Wing Chun is a pugilistic art that works best at very close range.

**Once again, old jong posts theory. You can almost always spot theory when it’s a general statement (like “WCK is . . .” ). I’m not saying his theory is wrong, but that it is theory – some claim. It’s a different matter to post your personal observations based on experience (I’ve found or my expression is or whatever).

Sorry to hear (but not surprised) that you consider Wing Chun as a long range pugilistic art.It explains a lot.

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Thought this could apply here as well…

…I just posted it on the “Open mind” thread…

Originally posted by Vankuen
[B]No Dave you’re making sense, I understand exactly what you are saying. (I think…)

Wing chun techniques are alive and transposable and the techniques used in a fight are not chosen by you but rather the person you are fighting…I don’t do tan sau, the opponent brings out tan sau. That is true. This is very easy to apply when fighting someone with energies that you are familiar with such as another wing chun person or another CMA with similiar moves and counters.

Fight someone that doesn’t play the same or a similar game…and then that concept is a bit harder to apply. When a person never bridges with you (and is good enough to do so) how do you “feel” which movement the opponent is “requesting” next? On the ground in a submission hold, will tan sau or fok sao or biu sau help you to get out of an arm bar or triangle choke, or to even counter one in the process of it’s application? If you’re fighting a thai fighter and goes to throw a full on round kick at you, are you going to choose tan sau it or gan sau it? (the kick didn’t bring it out, as there was no touching before the kick happened…) Some people don’t know what to change their techniques into midstream if it’s an energy that they’ve never or rarely been exposed to.

Do you see what I’m saying? So the need to drill based on visual triggers is necessary as well. Not all the attacks coming toward you will be done in a fashion that you will be able to apply the “use whatever technique the opponent brings out” if you’ve never really been accustomed to being attacked by that technique. And that brings us full circle to having to train in at least all the general areas of fighting…not so much every little tiny little thing like the icepick that Joy mentioned before…but the general areas of fighting such as the long range game with more mobile footwork, the clinching and throwing /counterthrowing game, the ground GRAPPLING game (not just ground “fighting”, because then you’re missing out on a chunk of the ground game), just some of the areas that wing chun doesn’t specialize in. And here’s the kicker in doing so…while you’re trianing in these areas with people that know them well…you can still learn to apply your wing chun there (if you can) by experimenting with these guys while learning their methods. That would be the ultimate test/training to learn to apply wing chun in those areas.

So you see, there really is no downside…you can expand your wing chun into those areas while training there…while you’re learning their methods as well. It’s a win win situation.

The reason I know this is because I did it myself when I trained in BJJ and muay thai. I applied wing chun concepts in both areas and still do. In certain exchanges I can use the attributes I gained in chi sau to help me feel where the other guy is going with his arms, but then switch back to JJ techniques when I need to counter or apply something of my own, as nothing else at the time in my wing chun arsenal would’ve helped me in that INSTANT. In muay thai, as it was mentioned in other posts, I can apply wing chun straight line closing techniques while I fight, even with gloves on, I can intercept (although found in other styles…i learned it in wing chun and JKD and so that’s where I credit it.) and so that’s what I’m saying here. When I go to the MT even though Im doing muay thai, Im still doing wing chun at times. When I go train with MMA (which I need to do again after my wrist heals) I will still use wing chun gained attributes to help me in certain instances where applicable (when striking or counter striking, sticking to the arms to gain position, etc.)

But at this point I’m rambling…I think you guys get the point here. [/B]