I have a couple questions actually.
First, do any of your schools have grappling incoorperated into Wing Chun?
Also, does schools try to incoorperate some of the more internal MA type of things into your Wing chun training?
thanks in advance,
In our group, yes we incorporate grappling into our WC. IMO, it’s a range of fighting that is not adaquatly addressed in traditional WC.
Internal training is left to the individual in our group. Most of us have our own experience and methods for internal training, and we don’t try to sway each other from our methods, although we will offer advice and information to those who are interested.
Grappling/ground fighting/Die tong
No, Our Kwoon does not incorperate grappleing into the WC system. However, our Sifu has showed us Die Tong (ground Fighting tactics) that are in the system already.
I mean, does anyone really think that in 3000 years of fighting, no one ever thought “hey, what if I fall over.”
As for internal training, we go into that nearing the end of our training. I’ve just started touching on it.
My instructors academy is a TWC school and a Machado BJJ associate school.
Wc has groundfighting, yes, and the forms have grappling applications (which you are unlikely to see unless you spend some serious time with grapplers), but frankly WC groundfighting and grappling is primitive compared to jiu jitsu.
There are plenty of competivie avenues for those who think otherwise to prove to the world that they are right.
We don’t claim to be a system of internal martial arts, though my instructor teaches some very basic qigong.
If you want ot fight, learn WC and BJJ. If you want to harness Qi, find someone who teaches and understands that.
IMO each system has its own purposes. A system which advertises, or even actually tries, to encompass combat in all phases and situations, physical culture and health nurturing, and cultural, social, and religious programs ends up doing nothing particularly well.
Agreed
WC’s Ground fighting is likely primitive when compared to more specilizied systems such as BJJ, or just plain JJ (my qualifier is both becuse i do not know BJJ asnd I don’t know all of WC)
But it works well for what it does. Primitve, but effective 
I think a skilled BJJer could likely mop me up if the fight went to the ground, but I’d like to think it would help. I know it’s better than what I knew before, that being nothing
Just like if a BJJ player were to fight standing up, their standup tech are primitive to WC standup fighting. It’s all relative and dependant on what a system specializes in. In actual fights, where you do not know who else may get involved in the fight between you and another, and you are unaware of your environment(like if there is glass on the ground or other objects that may make it uncomfortable to be on the ground), ground fighting is not recommended unless you are forced there(which means you have no idea on how to avoid the take down and such). When your rolling around on the ground with your opponent, his friends may want to get involved, then what?? I’d rather take the one out fast with the WC tech then go from there. I can always run faster while on my feet than on the ground anyday. Not to say that BJJ is not a effective MA or not needed, just IMO it’s specialization in fighting on the ground is not realistic when fighting in the unknown environment with unknown opponent/s.
In the system of WC my Sifu teaches we also practice Groundfigthing tech, also from a chair and from kneeling positions too. All the techniques are directly from the WC system, problem is not all can see them there.
James
sihing your comment
‘ground fighting is not recommended unless you are forced there(which means you have no idea on how to avoid the take down and such).’
is a bit like saying once your hit once you might as throw in the towel. A lot can happen and be done in between being forced to the ground and actually hitting the ground.
Your training for position can have as much to do about escaping the ground game and returning to your feet as g&p or submitting.
Does your kwoon capture this in their ground defense?
When youve just been dumped on the ground, lost all the wind from your sails and are on the bottom of a heavier opponent,who feels like he is crushing the air from your lungs, then you may see where BJJ training (or insert other grappling style here) is advantageous. Either that or you better have one hell of an inch strike cause thats about all the room (or less) that you’ll have left.
Our school currently does not (adequately) cover the grappling range IMO.
This is something I’m hoping to eventually change.
Our instructor is enlightened as to the benifit of grappling and we have had some sporadic seminars from guest instructors, looking at ways to introduce more standing grappling and basic ground defense and position.
I have covered a little ground in BJJ but i am still a too green to be passing on my knowledge during classes in our school.
Going down that track will probably also require a separate timetable as grappling is not everyones gravy. Also a decent gi and mats become prerequisite.
I think anerlich’s school definitely have he goods here.
Wrt internal, our sifu teaches a number of Tai chi styles but this is mainly outside of the normal curriculum.
I can’t help but wonder if Wing Chun is discussed on BJJ forums as much as BJJ is discussed here.
Just my idle curiosity. Back to your discussion.
Regards,
- kj
Originally posted by kj
[B]I can’t help but wonder if Wing Chun is discussed on BJJ forums as much as BJJ is discussed here.
Just my idle curiosity. Back to your discussion.
Regards,
- kj [/B]
They might, but I doubt it would be with as much respect.
Very good question KJ. And I agree with AmanuJRY comment, “and probably with not much respect”. A couple of my problems with things on this forum is that it’s always emphasized that the likelihood of ending up on the ground is high, and the what if questions like namron’s situation. Well WHAT IF I knock him out first or eliminate his chance at getting me on the ground? Is that a impossibility? I’d rather not think at all about my opponent and his actions or the outcome of a confrontation but rather let my training and reflexes do the talking, to which I am quite confident in. The only time it should be of concern is when it is done with surprise, like when you are tackled from behind, a sucker rush I guess. But the same thing can apply to the grappler getting sucker punched, funny thing is I never see questions or situation like that on the BJJ forum arise or asked. And also it is not guaranteed that when the two of you are on the ground that you as the inexperienced ground fighter will automatically lose because the opponent has BJJ or other ground fighting experience. Fighting is also allot about heart and will.
I think it is smart to be aware of these arts and know the strategy and tactics of what they do. Every skilled practitioner of any MA is dangerous. Like every MA some of the BJJ people are highly skilled practitioners and should be respected absolutely, but we should not be afraid of them or their techniques, unless you decide to play their game when in a confrontation.
Namron:
Yes our kwoon incorporates escaping the ground game and also fighting while mounted and escapes from there. When I teach I like to emphasize that ultimately you do not want to continually be punching your opponent while standing up, chasing them down the floor, and that you should eventually lead them to the ground and continue your attack/punch/joint lock whatever there. The opponent has much more opportunity to escape and run away to come back and try again while he/she is standing up. The key word here is “lead”.
James
Originally posted by kj
[B]I can’t help but wonder if Wing Chun is discussed on BJJ forums as much as BJJ is discussed here.
Just my idle curiosity. Back to your discussion.
Regards,
- kj [/B]
I think if they would have had this forum in the 1950’s in Hong Kong then the topic of discussion might have been how can Wing Chun beat up the Choy Li Fut people (who think they are better fighters).
If Wing Chun people in Thailand had a forum then the discussing would probably revolve around how to beat the Thai boxers.
BJJ rarely see WC people so we wouldn’t be of much interest to them.
Before Eastern martial arts became popular there was always the discussion of whether a wrestler could beat a boxer or a boxer could beat a wrestler. Neither camp probably spent much time studying eah other’s arts (no time for that if you want to excel in your art). Just the man in the street would talk about this in the bar with his buddies.
There is plenty to learn and master in Wing Chun for most people. However some people are talented enough and have enough time to master several arts.
A lot of great masters of old mastered a few arts.
I think there is still benefit to classical martial arts training such as Aikido where the question of dealing with BJJ or WC just never comes up.
If the Wing Chun story about the art being derived from a snake and a crane are true, then Wing Chun should have some highly evolved grappling skills coming from the snake part of the art (Boa Constrictor).
IMO Wing chun does have highly evolved grappling skills. I think it is just that most WC “sifus” dont understand or know how to use it. My sifu has told me and shown some of the grappling that can be used in WC but it is very hard for me to show in text. I can try if anyone desires to hear more.
just my opinon
Katsu
Go ahead and give it a shot.
What Shadowboxer said, as I did earlier.
I can’t help but wonder if Wing Chun is discussed on BJJ forums as much as BJJ is discussed here.
Not as much, but almost always as a straw man art that only the clueless have any interest in.
I can try if anyone desires to hear more.
After implying that most people’s Sifu’s are apparently clueless on the subject, you’d better put your money where your mouth is.
Let me preface this by saying that my only knowledge of WC is what I have seen in books and on the web. However, I do have a fairly good background in Aikido, Kenpo and street fighting.
From what I have seen of WC most of your strikes/blocks position you very well to apply joint locks. It would be pretty simple to extend the soft block into a lock, arm bar, throw etc… Now this may not be “Wing Chun” but it seems like a natural extension of the forms I have seen (and a big part of why WC is going to be my next MA).
Footwork & being properly centered can negate a grapplers advantages, but like the other poster said it comes down to the “boxer vs wrestler” debate which is a total waste of time. I have seen people go down under light jabs and seen people who keep going even after having bones broken or dislocated joints. You never know, so play your game and maintain control.
i wasnt trying to imply anything. Just simply saying that most of the WC schools dont look at the grappling aspect of fighting. Heck i even went to one really traditional school that told me they dont do lap sau because its to much like a grappling hold. Thats fine if thats what works for you, but i want to be able to hold my own in all ranges of fighting.
as far as examples, just take a closer look at the moves. A irmi naga (japanese aikido throw) can be easily modified and done with a lateral lap sau, sweeping step (i dont know the name of it its at the beginning of the chum kiu form) and a jun sau.
as far as examples, just take a closer look at the moves. A irmi naga (japanese aikido throw) can be easily modified and done with a lateral lap sau, sweeping step (i dont know the name of it its at the beginning of the chum kiu form) and a jun sau.
That’s it?
you can draw the following applications from SLT:
collar choke, rear naked choke, guillotine, 1/2 nelson lapel choke
a number of arm locks and entanglements, responses to throat and lapel grabs, etc.
neck manipulation throws
major and minor outer reaping throws
from CK:
Cutting armbars
several neck manipulation throws
BJ
shoulder throw
bearhug escape
takedown defense (though pretty woeful)
breakfalls
just off the top of my head.
Get your Sifu to show you - you said he knows them all …
rereading i may have sounded like i was trying to get into one of those “my teacher is better than yours because of ______” discussion, which i wasnt. Sorry if i came across like that. Anerlich, those are some good ideas from SLT, you have anymore grappling and throwing applications you can think of?
how is this as a take down defense.
Assumeing you predict the takedown (can’t defend it if you don’t know it’s happening) use the gum sau pinning motion from the end of chum kui. Aim it at the neck/shoulders of the incoming grappler. use the resulting power arc to swing your forward leg (presumably the one he is going for) away and move your body out of reach useing “toi ma” (implied in CK, shown properly in the batt jam dao) Now if the grappler has commited himself to the takedown, push down and use the Kwai sutt motion (implied in SLT) to put him down, and leave your self on top, ready to pummel.
This is much better described in my Sifu’s tape “grappler beating basics”
Is this defense woefull? if so why?