What is the problem with wing chun and ground fighting? Why does it seem to be such a concern? To be completely honest I have only seen it touched upon once or twice in a few of the different schools I have attended. Does wing chun address the ground fighting at all? Doe sit have good answers? What are they?
I cant speak for other WC styles but in WT we do deal with groundfighting. We seek to avoid going to ground and so train mainly anti-grappling techniques, we also train escape techniques from the ground, mount position etc.
kingmonkey - what sort of anti-grappling techniques are you learning or studying?
Well for example…
Versus a shootfighter seeking to come in tight and reasonably low a couple of options we train would be the following.
A little bit higher:-
- side step and turn with aggressive gaun-sau to the arm and strikes. ie palm to ear
Slightly lower:-
- long bridge gum-sau to the back of the neck, drive the guy to the floor using also his own momentum
kingmonkey, thanks for your responses. Do you train this stuff against skilled grapplers or groundfighters?
Does anyone else address this thoroughly in their school or class?
GoodPoint KingMonkey!
Glad to here that some people think that WC can deal with grappling…
woof woof 
Do you train this stuff against skilled grapplers or groundfighters?
Unfortunately not. We try and base our shootfighting attacks on what we know grapplers do and try and make it realistic, but I couldnt claim to train this with any competent BJJ guys or shootfighters.
We also sometimes train hand techniques from the mount postion. ie non wc guy in full mount about to ground and pound, and the wc guy using lat-sao to defend and hopefully un- seat the guy above. The trick is gaining contact with the guys wrist as his attempted punch brings his weight forward and then pulling and thrusting with the hips at the same time. You should send him over your shoulder…
This is not easy or the last word in this sort of situation I will certainly admit but it can definitely work. I think I’ve seen a video clip of Emin Boztepe doing something very similar… if I can dig it up I’ll post a link…
http://www.fightauthority.com/index.php4?vidid=310&vidTypeId=4&locationID=1
Of course this guy has awesome chi-sau…
Re: What is the problem?
Hi Grabula
I have no problem with ground fighting. The interesting thing is Ground fighting has not traditionaly been part of wing chun. Yip Man did not lie on the ground and have Wong Sheung Leung attack him. It just did not happen.
People argue that ground fighting didn’t exist or was not popular so Yip Man did not have to teach it. I will argue a bit in that Judo was around as well as Jujitsu. But perhaps more relavant was Shiu Chao. On top of that, people have been falling down, as one arguement brought up by pro ground fighters, since man decided to stand up and/or found the mirrcle of alchohol. LOL
So, Yip Man was probably familiar with people being on the ground, but still didn’t teach it.
My POV is that wing chun is not a reactive art that deals with specific things as they happen. It is a proactive art that dictates the fight. Stoping a round punch, hook, or swing is not to block or attack the swinging arm, but to attack the body before it is thrown. I think the same applies to ground fighting. If you ended up on the ground, then you made a mistake and failed in the wing chun principles. I think we need to prevent being put on the ground. If we failed in our specialty standing up and were taken to the ground by a supperior fighter, what makes us think we can learn some groundfighting and expect to be proficient at it against the same person that jsut took us down?
With that said, do we just give up and lie down on the ground? No, of course not. But what do we do?
Tom
tparkerkfo, I think that is where the evolution comes in. For some reason ground fighting wasn’t taught for a while and now it seems we have all but lost it. So we evolve like the other thread talks about, adapting what we know now.
Yip Man did not lie on the ground and have Wong Sheung Leung attack him. It just did not happen.
I am curious how you know that so surely. I have seen books from the 60’s that detail kicks from the ground, where then did this come from?
My POV is that wing chun is not a reactive art that deals with specific things as they happen. It is a proactive art that dictates the fight.
Exactly, however it also contains the ability to react if something unexpected happens, we can’t always be proactive.
. I think we need to prevent being put on the ground. If we failed in our specialty standing up and were taken to the ground by a supperior fighter, what makes us think we can learn some groundfighting and expect to be proficient at it against the same person that jsut took us down?
What makes me think that is the idea my Sifu has pounded into my head that the fights not over till it’s over. I expect proficency because I practice it in drills and in forms, over and over again. Will I ever be as skilled grapler as someone whom trains 6 hours of jujitsu a day? No, clearly not, but it seems odd that WCK would have such a large ‘hole’ in its theory as to simply ignore the possiblity of going to the ground.
Grabula
. Does wing chun address the ground fighting at all? Doe sit have good answers? What are they?
Yes. Yes. Ask your Sifu ;).
Ok ok, since you asked for specifics…
One thing that makes WCK a terror on the ground is our ability, trained from SLT on, to generate ‘dwan ging’ or short energy. A very good grappler can supress or avoid by position most strikeing, but not all of it. Our grond fighting, or ‘dai tong’ sounds simmilar to KingMonkeys, ghans and gums to keep them at bay, but should they keep advanceing we learn to supress them useing the ‘kwai sut’ motion implied in SLT (and possiblly shown with more detail in latter forms.)
as my gum hits them in the neck they shift vectors to get my legs, I allow my gum to fold in to a ding jarn and pull my stance all the way in, till my one knee is on the groung, this places my bodyweight on his neck in a manner that I can control.
sounds mostly reasonable to me oddermensch, things I have heard before or seen on my own.
Yes. Yes. Ask your Sifu
by the way, and I am not picking on you by any means, but I get this answer a lot and used to buy into that idea that it was a respect thing or a learning in phases thing but am pretty convinced now a days I hear this mostly because most people don’t know the answer. Again, not picking on you oddermensch because you went on to explain yourself and it is appreciated. I am not looking for free internet lessons, just looking for good ideas and bouncing my own as well.
as my gum hits them in the neck they shift vectors to get my legs, I allow my gum to fold in to a ding jarn and pull my stance all the way in, till my one knee is on the groung,
Oddermensch Im with you up until they shift vectors to go after the legs, can you explain the rest without reference to ding jarn. I do not know what this is… maybe we have a wildly different spelling or call it by an English name… alternatively this is something new for me
I think from now on, i might say something like, 'look to the kuit" instead. “when hands defend hands and feet defend feet, there are no seceret or unstopable manuvers.”
but when you quote me, don’t forget my ;)s!
How dare you misquote me :mad:!
How dare you misquote me :rolleyes:.
how dare you misquote me 
:mad: misquote 
?
See the differnece?
ACTUALLY, I meant to get that in there but for some reason it did not carry over in the quote, sorry 
If someone goes for my legs, i figure i’ve got a few options. One is I can let them get my legs and plan to land on top of them, in some form of sprawl perhaps.
another is I can move out of the way, by sidesteping, or shifting.
A third option is to let them gab my legs, lean back and wave my arms around trying to fly till I get my head busted in by the ground. :eek: (the later was my response before I learned any kung fu :D)*
As tparkerkfo states, WC wants to be proactive. If attacked, intercept! If you can see of feel the grab coming in, stop it. If they are a really good takedown artist, you souldn’t see it coming, but as me sifu says, if you let anyone get that close and you haven’t hit them yet, something is very wrong. If you have gained a bridge, use it to sense what they are doing and respond in kind. Assumeing a gum sao, a palm pressing on the neck or shoulder of the grappler, as you press down you should be moveing your lower body away from the incoming force, to a better angle. But if they are determined to get you they can also angle, either by spining away from your gum, or by going for a lower target.
If you back away, or angle again at this point, you are moveing backwards and a skilled person will follow you, its a loseing game for he person retreating as they will end up on bottom when it does get to the ground.
Instead sprial down into the gum sau, fold over the elbow to press on the neck and use your adduction to pull yourself into a kneelling posture, you should now be on the ground, but in a very good position to either stand back up, or finish things there.
As for ding jarn, it’s the forward folding of the elbow, it might look simmilar to a ‘lan sau’
*i always hear people talking about fighting with your natural instincts, I disagree, my natural instincts suck compared to haveing a refined skill.
Hi Grabula,
tparkerkfo, I think that is where the evolution comes in. For some reason ground fighting wasn’t taught for a while and now it seems we have all but lost it. So we evolve like the other thread talks about, adapting what we know now.
I may not be following you. When was ground fighting part of wing chun? When was it forgotten?
OdderMensch
Originally posted by OdderMensch
Yip Man did not lie on the ground and have Wong Sheung Leung attack him. It just did not happen.
I am curious how you know that so surely. I have seen books from the 60’s that detail kicks from the ground, where then did this come from?
Well, I don’t know for a fact. However, I have talked to many, many people and it is pretty much common knowledge that Yip Man did not practice ground fighting. Though I am always open to new info. What have you heard? And what book from the 60’s? I though the first wing chun books were printed in the 70’s except for maybe James Lee book. But I do not recall any ground stuff in that book.
What makes me think that is the idea my Sifu has pounded into my head that the fights not over till it’s over. I expect proficency because I practice it in drills and in forms, over and over again. Will I ever be as skilled grapler as someone whom trains 6 hours of jujitsu a day? No, clearly not, but it seems odd that WCK would have such a large ‘hole’ in its theory as to simply ignore the possiblity of going to the ground.
The fight is not over till it is over. That is true. But I don’t think there is such a large hole in wing chun. It is just a matter of perspective. The art doesn’t practice ground fighting traditionaly by working on the ground. It practices ground fighting by preventing it from happening. Look at the foot work. It is very solid and rooted. It should be difficult to take some one down. The feet don’t do any outlandish stepping so it should be difficult to trip.
Most of the people I see go to the ground do so for two reasons. One, they are fighting a professional ground fighter that is EXTREMLY skilled at what he does. Most of us do not fight top notch NHB people on a regular basis. Second, is that both fighters are street fighters and go down becuase neither have any reall skill and they end up wrestlling around. This is what I see and I think the later is more the norm. Most people are not experienced fighters in any style.
If your any good at wing chun, I think you should be able to fight before you go down. If you go down, then you made a mistake. The fight may not be over, but I think your wing chun options are limited. Some think there are many things you can do on the ground. There may be.
But we are talking a what if senario. If you get taken down, then you screwed up somewhere. But that is only the beggining. If you go down, say by a trip, there is a good chance that your gonna injur you head. If you get taken down, you probably will get slammed hard if the guy knows what he is doing. ALso, chances are there friends involved. In every altercation I have been in involved friends. Some times I had friends and sometimes I did not. So the last thing I wanted to do was go to the ground under any circumstances.
What do I do when on the ground? Well, I do what I can and apply what I know. First off, many targets are still exposed. Some wing chun things work. But you have to be good enough to be on your back rather than your stomach, which you may not have the option in a real encounter.
There is a limit to all our wing chun. We can not be a super man and defend against everything. One may feel that wing chun is this or that. People may adapt it to the ground, but it clearly is not designed for that any more than a screwdriver is designed for opening paint cans. It may be able to do the job, but it is not the best tool for it. Wing CHun may work on the ground, but I don’t think it is the best tool for that. You want groundfighting, take up ground fighting. Just sharing my opinions.
Tom
Re: What is the problem?
Originally posted by Grabula
What is the problem with wing chun and ground fighting? Why does it seem to be such a concern? To be completely honest I have only seen it touched upon once or twice in a few of the different schools I have attended. Does wing chun address the ground fighting at all? Doe sit have good answers? What are they?
A note from a useless mad man
The older I get the more I belive in the way such as the O sensei of Aikido. Force, Technics, Special type of conditioning for Jing… are great but ultimately it can’t replace for the sense of knowing the Natural of oneself. It makes a heaven and earth different on whether one response with Yee naturally or not…
The older I am the more convince I am that natural is the key to everything because I cannot predict what you are going to use against me. But, I know, if I stick with natural I am to a great degree protected by natural. if I want to play I don’t activate Yee so one can have fun to be push around. If Yee to penetrate is used then it is not play. But, World is more then win or lost. World is more then making enermy because I am always has to be right and better then you.
Body can lost the link but Yee used naturally will always connect.. weakness is strength when only when one is with natural.
It is not about power it is about grace.
It is not about anger it is about peace.
It is not about win or lost it is about compassionate and not hurting.
Who is number one? We have different faces. Who is most pretty or handsome? We all grow old.
What is spring? that is compassionate.
When all is over only compassionate stay.
I may not be following you. When was ground fighting part of wing chun? When was it forgotten?
tparkerkfo, If there was ever an approach to fighting on the ground it needs to be rediscovered. If there wasn’t to isn’t, then it needs to be developed, hence evolution of a sort takes place.
Learning not to go to the ground is not the same as learning how to fight on the ground. It’s a phase or range if you will. It’s a good thing to do, because if you can stop going there then you should. But like all things it isn’t 100% foolproof so what happens then?
There are all sorts of arguments as to how often fights go to ground or do not, or why, or who could make you. In my mind it isn’t a question of IF ina good, well rounded martial artists mind, it’s a question if WHEN. Being prepared for it doesn’t mean you plan on it, just that you are prepared to deal with it as best you can.
Hi Grabula,
If I agree with you, then this excellent discussion is done. It is too good of a subject to do that, so I will argue my point. My view is not that ground fighting is not worthy of wing chun, but does it fit within wing chun?
Wing Chun without ground work takes years to practice and get good. Most people start as young adults. Many spend years perfecting the art. Any ground fighting will add that much longer. Then the thought I have is how long can you ground fight for? Yip MAn was able to use wing chun upto close to his death. But I doubt he could have wrestled around on the floor. Some would say Helio could, but can he really wrestle a large strong opponent intent on injuring him? Can you say osteoperosis? I can, but obviously I can’t spell it. LOL
You say we might end up on the floor. That is true. But we may also end up against a gun. Or perhaps a UFC maller, or perhaps a strange fate will have us fighting Leung Bik. Hwat if senarios are just that. We can not possibly account for every situation. You can get hit by a sucker punch or a lucky punch. Bith of which probably have better odds than going to the ground. Maybe depending on your enviornment you will find yourself on rough terrain with boots on, or a polished floor with dress shoes. Who knows. Do you spend vast amounts of time developing your skills on Grass and marbled floors?
I have never heard any one say that ground fighting was part of wing chun. I don’t think it was lost, it just wasn’t there. I find it odd that most Chinese Martial arts do not include ground fightin. In fact most martial arts do not. Judo is a recent invention and even they don’t roll around on the ground much. Jujitusu did not until early on. THough they did explore alternative senarios like sititng or kneeling. I think there is a lot of good reasons that ground fighting has not been a major part of any martial art, becuase it is dangerous and not advantagous. It is not that people in the old days didn’t fall down, but that you want to get to your feet as quickly as possible.
Heck, until the MMA phase, we were not concerned with fighting on the ground. We laughed at them. But they showed how effective it was. THat doesn’t make our art any less effective. We need to better understand our art and how to apply it. Wing Chun was not designed to fight on the ground. It has some tools that work there, but that is not its strong suit. If we add ground fighting in, I think we would be adding differrent principles that would confuse the practicioner. And if we added these principles that don’t follow, why not just learn ground fighting from the get go? Assuming you have time.
My thought is that wing chun is a stand up art and that is how it works best. JuiJitsu is a grapling art and that is how it works best. Jujitsu people don’t need to focus on TKD kicks any more than Wing Chun needs to focus on Ground fighting. Your job in wing chun is to defend yourself quickly and succinctly. Don’t buy into the huge MMA thing. Most people are not that skilled in real life. I doubt most people can defend against those animals even with groundfighting. Note you have not seen any succesful WCK in these events, nor have you seen any succesfull wing chun w/ groundfighting. These events are dominated by monsters who can train hours a day, feel little pain, and work the mat for days on end. They don’t spend 1-2 hours a day on wing chun and squeeze in a little grappling on the side. Fighting on the ground is just as complex as wing chun and would take as much time.
Think of all those greats in wing chun. Take WSL. He didn’t get great by fixing wing chun. He didn’t add white crane to take advantage of kicking. He didn’t add grappling and ground work to haddle that. He did study boxing, but gave it up for wing chun. You didn’t see him bobing and weaving. In short, he was good because he trusted the system and worked hard at it. If he sliped and lost a fight, so be it. You can’t prevent everything.
Tom