What is the problem?

Lindley · April 30, 2003, 6:55pm

Grabula,

You post good questions. They say “90% of all fights go to the ground”, but 100% of them start standing up. A Wing Chun person ideally trains to be a superior stand-up fighter. If your training limits you to focus only on techniques, then you will think there are deficiencies in the Wing Chun system. Wing Chun is a complete system. If one is trained to think more openly, you will find that mastery of any martial art gives you a “martial mind”. At this level, you will find that you can grasp some value from looking at an application of a technique and get it in half the time! Why? Because at the true higher levels, it is the approach to the training that matters more than just the toolset of techniques. Just becomes another technique you can apply your principles and attiribute training to.

Interestingly, when I had a conversation with a very good BJJ person, he used words that reflected a nature about the art more than just a list of techniques. He talked about balance, coordination, timing, sensitivity, and relaxation. About flowing with the opponent. Of course he also mentioned about chin down, and open limbs etc. Not that I became an expert at his art at that moment, but within minutes I could gain some significant level of understanding of technique application.

We should be open to learning how to fall, experiencing grappling, experience kicking ranges and ground fighting. Those are not typically part of the Yip Man syllabus, but can always be a part of “your Kung Fu”. Some have mentioned that they learn ground fighting in their formal Wing Chun training. The Wreslters and the BJJ people feel “at home” on the ground. In the same regard, most Wing Chun people train to feel “at home” standing up with the same purpose - being proficient at what they do best.

We can all argue whether ground fighting is a formal part of the system or not. The Wing Chun police are not going to arrest a Sifu for teaching ground fighting or developing some useful techniques for it using Wing Chun concepts. If you have the time, effort and the money and ground fighting is important to you, then train it! Personally, there is a wealth of Kung Fu to learn in the stand up arena of the Wing Chun system.

Good luck with your Kung Fu!

Grabula · April 30, 2003, 7:13pm

tparkerkfo and lindley -

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying yeah or neah on whether wing chun is complete or not, just talking at the moment, learning.

Ok, tparker, I see what you are getting at and generally I understand what you are saying. Do you believe that those who practice wing chun should be blissfully ignorant of that particular range of fighting? Guns are not really applicable in my mind, the finger is faster then the mind as they say and there are some situations where fighting is less then useless. Heck, when it really comes down to it, the chances of being in a regular fight aren’t much more then being knifed or shot anyway so why bother at all. However I understand where you are coming from in regards to how much is too much. Where do you draw the line? What goals are you trying to reach for? My question in this is whether wing chun is or isn’t a “complete art” as one would call it.
I am not necessarily interested in covering every situation, and every situation has a varying degree of comonality often associated with your environment. For example, where I live and how I live, it is more likely I will see a fist fight then a knifing or a shooting. That is not to say it won’t happen and that I may not want to prepare for it in some way, however I like to train more in those situations that may come up more often then the others. Going to the ground is certainly common, atleast in my experience. I would have to say atleast half the fights I have observed have or haven’t gone to the ground. In my mind there is a good chance that you will go to the ground, even if you train not to.
Basically where do you draw the line? If you train to not go to the ground why not train for when you are on the ground? OF course wing chun is much better when you are not prone, but shouldn’t a thorough art address all those ranges of combat? Why is it that the Wing Tsun guys, the Leung Ting/Boztepe people seem to be the only ones really taking this sort of training seriously?

Now don’t get me wrong, we only have so much time, in day and in a lifetime so of course it is really up to the individual. My theory is more then anything else, fighting on the ground isn’t as glamerous, isn’t like hollywood or the old chinese kung fu flicks and so people have neglected it. Telling themselves the same things you say tparker, it won’t happen to me, or it rarely happens anyway so why bother, or more commonly, I will train so it doesn’t happen. I train so I don’t get hit, but I don’t think that means I will never get hit.

OdderMensch · April 30, 2003, 7:14pm

And what book from the 60’s? I though the first wing chun books were printed in the 70’s except for maybe James Lee book. But I do not recall any ground stuff in that book.

Honestly, i havent checked he copywright dates, I went by the clothing choices in some of the pictures Its a book my sifu has, it shows WCK practicioners practiceing ground kicking and the same basic ‘groundfighting position’ that my sifu teachs us today.

. One, they are fighting a professional ground fighter that is EXTREMLY skilled at what he does. Most of us do not fight top notch NHB people on a regular basis. Second, is that both fighters are street fighters and go down becuase neither have any reall skill and they end up wrestlling around.

Agreed, you wrestle because you have agreed to wrestle, but wrestleing is taught heavily in my area at the high school and college levels, I had a next door neibor try to take me down for a while, and he could do so more often then I liked (course this was over a year ago, he wouldn’t have as much luck today :D)

If you go down, say by a trip, there is a good chance that your gonna injur you head. If you get taken down, you probably will get slammed hard if the guy knows what he is doing.

I’d have to dissagree a bit. When I go down I rarely hit my head beacuse I have trained not to! I have some people I spare with, and only two of them (black belts with decades of experience) can take me down, but I alway 'fall" into my groungfighting srtucture and can continue the fight on my terms immediatly. (note these are skilled Kempo fighters, not grapplers, I know this, one of my Mantis brothers can take me down at will, and I usually have no idea i’m going down till I see the sky! :eek: )

So the last thing I wanted to do was go to the ground under any circumstances.
My sifu tells us if you are on the ground for more then 10 seconds, you’re dead. by then someone has a weapon, or a friend.

I have never heard any one say that ground fighting was part of wing chun. I don’t think it was lost, it just wasn’t there. I find it odd that most Chinese Martial arts do not include ground fightin.

Ever heard the term “dei tong”? I may be misspelling it, but it means ground fighting. I belive, I am taught, I imagine (take your pick) that it has always been a part of kung fu, just like strikeing, kicking, joint locking, throwing and qigong have always been a part of kung fu.

I think there is a lot of good reasons that ground fighting has not been a major part of any martial art, becuase it is dangerous and not advantagous.

Take a look at fuikyen groung boxing, ground fighting and wrestleing are two vey different things.

Wing Chun without ground work takes years to practice and get good. Most people start as young adults. Many spend years perfecting the art. Any ground fighting will add that much longer.
Unless the groundfighting is already a strong part of the sytem and you merely need to see how to apply the kung you have devoloped in your stand up fighting to ground fighting situations.

tparkerkfo · April 30, 2003, 7:38pm

Hi Guys,

Great posts. First off, I do want to say that one can not afford to ignor ground fighting. But is wing chun the tool for the job? I have a SUV which is great for certain things. But I find out that they are not so great for cornering and can roll over. So, do I lower my SUV and put a porche suspention and tires on it?

Second, what do we do to wing chun to make it work on the ground? What current things work there and what do we need to add if we take this approach? Is this something that all wing chun should come up with or is this school specific? And who says that that person is knwledgeable at ground fighting to add it?

Grabula-I too am just learning. I am just giving my perspectives. I am not suggesting they are correct. Many on this list with much more experience in wing chun and ground fighting will out argue me any day of the week. LOL.

My point is that wing chun deals with ground fighting by not letting the situation get there in the first place. We don’t wrestle around nor do we dance around. We have to get in and disrupt our opponent as quickly as we can by attacking his structure. The ground fighting is done proactivly. It is an approach to a fight. Think of it this way, what do you do if your opponent has you by the kneck with a knife and has you pulled off balanced? Oh yeah, he is intent on killing you! You can tell me a few different things you could do, but most would fail if the opponent does it correctly and is intent on hurting you. The point is you don’t get into that position to start with.

OdderMensch-If you can, please let me know what book that would be. I am interested as I don’t recall seeing a book like that. Yes wrestling is actually quite common in my area too. I will never get in a fight with some UFC tough guy, but my chances are greater that I will fight a HS wrestler. I know several, and I know they can eat me for lunch if I go to the ground, hence is why I don’t go to the ground. Even if I trained there, they have far more experience than I. If I studied full time, I could gain the experience, but at the detrement to my wing chun skills.

What I would say about your not getting hurt is are your friends really trying to hurt you? Are you really wresttling on the cement? People talk about tripping in a fight. In this situation you go down by suprise. It is very easy to hit your head. If your prepared, then I agree you can prepare for it durring the fight. However, the guy is probably going to try to hurt you as he takes you down by throwing you and/or landing on top of you. There is a different level of intent from friends and enemies fighting. Of course this doesn’t always apply. Look at the Emin and Cheung incident. This is a rather simple and not to violent situation that counters all my arguments.

And yes there are some arts that focus on groundfighting. But not many. And of those, most don’t spend much time there. But yes there are some. You could add monkey style too. But they are not gonna wrestle with you on the floor.

Tom

Fix Ps3

Grabula · April 30, 2003, 8:09pm

To me I guess it is a balance of what ifs. What if I go to the ground? Reasonable what if, happens all the time. What if I fall and hit my head on the curb and knock myself out? could happen, chances are good it won’t though.
There seems to be a sort of schism between grappling types and striking types and I don’t like it. As the chinese arts often teach us, taking an extreme is often dangerous, most of the time the truth is in the middle.

OdderMensch · May 1, 2003, 5:36pm

Oh yeah, he is intent on killing you! You can tell me a few different things you could do, but most would fail if the opponent does it correctly and is intent on hurting you.

Ok this was towards grabula but why is that any more true on the ground then it is in strikeing? If a good boxer wants to hit you and you step into his range you are gonna get hit. The question is will he hit you in the face, or in the bridge arm you were able to get up?

If a skilled grappler want to take me down, and I let him get anywhere near me, we’re probably going down. The question is do I land flat on my back, or roll onto my side? Do I fall into a choke or arm bar, or does he get pulled into some elbows?

If someone is intent on hurting you, and you are not intent on hurting them, you are in serious trouble.

“When hands defend hands and feet defend feet, there are secret or unstopable moves”
In other words, nothing works everytime, and a thousand moves have a thousand counters. Be bold, but not greedy. Your defense is not impenaterable, by neither is thiers.

“the shape that attacks is the shape that defends”
And vice versa. It them with everything you’ve got all the time, and don’t rely on your hands, kick them, elbow them shoulder butt them

“Soft and relaxed strength will put your opponent in jeopardy”
Grapplers win often because they have a plan, and they execute it calmly. If you panic and tense up, its all over no matter where in the fight you are. Again, don’t play thier game. Much easier said than done (even in strikeing) But impossible if you have not trained what to do if it happens.

What I would say about your not getting hurt is are your friends really trying to hurt you? Are you really wresttling on the cement?

Hurt me, in a sparring match? never ;). (well, maybe once or twice, by accident) And no, we dont wrestle. Once we go to the ground, the action normally stops (but not always) And yes, several of them can take me to the ground, but that doesn’t mean they are in any better position to hurt me then I am to hurt them.

People talk about tripping in a fight. In this situation you go down by suprise. It is very easy to hit your head. If your prepared, then I agree you can prepare for it durring the fight. However, the guy is probably going to try to hurt you as he takes you down by throwing you and/or landing on top of you.

It is very easy to hit your head as you fall, I did it all the time when I started practiceing, now it happens less and less and so far (sound of knocking on wood) never in a sparing match that wasn’t with my mantis brothers.

As I said earlier in the thread, one of the reasons I love WC is that its responses are far better that me “natural” responses! I know for a fact that when I fall down, naturaly, I try and catch myself, flail my arms around and throw my head back!

Now when i fall I curl up and pull myself down, keeping my head up and tucked (but not overly so) to my chest, why? Cause thats what SLT has taught me to do.

. Of course this doesn’t always apply. Look at -snip-. This is a rather simple and not to violent situation that counters all my arguments.

Ugh, no thanks I’ll pass any counters to arguements that bringing that thing up might provide. :rolleyes:

Look at the opening movement of SLT. As I am taught, you want to feel “suspended” from a point on the top back of your head. you then bend your knees while keeping this suspened feelling, allowing your back to straighten. At the same time your hands come up so that your forearms are paralel to the ground, keeping your shoulders sunk and relaxed. Your toes come out to a 45, your heels come out about 90 and you tuck your pelvis up and forward. your stucture should feel relaxed, and as if you were gripping the ground. Does this sound correct?

Edited to say Doh! This was meant to be a quick reply about the “Book from the 60’s” You were right, it was from the 80’s Chow and Weakland series Bui Jee book. But the so called “grappler faze” has only been around since the Gracies really came out in the 90’s and MMA’s not till later then that, but here they are, practiceing basic ground kicking in the early 80’s, and I asume they learned it from someone in the 60’s or 70’s at least. In other words, th idea of fighting with WC on the ground is nothing new, even if the aproch we use for traing might be.

In other, other words, we were Di tong, when Di tong wasn’t cool

Sandman2_Wing_Chun · May 1, 2003, 9:41pm

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
[B]

OdderMensch-If you can, please let me know what book that would be. I am interested as I don’t recall seeing a book like that.
[/B]

I can’t remember exactly which one, but it’s one of the Chao and Weakland books. I’ll dig through them.

yuanfen · May 1, 2003, 10:05pm

Most folks are talking about the re-issue of the Chao and Weakland book. I have the earlier first edition and I corresponded briefly with the co- author. I dont have my copy handy but it came out in the 70s.The manuscript sat at the publishers for a long time and the authors were not initially happy with the production and marketing. Chao does have some groundwork in there- and at one point hints on an application of biu jee.

In our school we practiced groundwork drills in the 70s without hearing anything about the Gracies.