does your school cover any groundfighting techiniques/escapes etc…
I always here people say power comes from the ground, So if your on your back on the floor surely your wing chun should be good on the floor???
[QUOTE=Saboi Osmosis;1058120]does your school cover any groundfighting techiniques/escapes etc…
I always here people say power comes from the ground, So if your on your back on the floor surely your wing chun should be good on the floor???[/QUOTE]
My WCK is better from knee on stomach than it is from on my back.
How about yours?
[QUOTE=Saboi Osmosis;1058120]does your school cover any groundfighting techiniques/escapes etc…
I always here people say power comes from the ground, So if your on back on the floor surely your wing chun should be good on the floor???[/QUOTE]
Good question. 
If you are on your back on the ground then your back will need to draw the earth energy into your techniques (replacing your stance/roots). That is more or less what I know about WC ground fighting as I had to move countries before I could advance into that aspect of this art, but ground fighting is taught in the Mainlad Chinese lineage of WC that I practice.
Note: The ground fighting of kung fu is not a well known area, so people may react negatively to questions such as yours, but not to worry, they do so because the general information available regarding the lesser known aspects of the Traditional Chinese Martial Arts (TCMAs) is very poor.
I believe that things may get better as China opens up more and more and the people outside start getting more access to the lesser known methodologies of the TCMAs.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1058195]If you are on your back on the ground then your back will need to draw the earth energy into your techniques (replacing your stance/roots). That is more or less what I know about WC ground fighting as I had to move countries before I could advance into that aspect of this art, but ground fighting is taught in the Mainlad Chinese lineage of WC that I practice.
[/QUOTE]
Or you could give up ridiculous ideas about “drawing earth energy into your techniques” and train a functional art in that area like BJJ or Sambo.
The reason that the “ground fighting of kung fu” isn’t known is because it is either non-existent, an after-thought to many systems, or trained in a fashion that is far inferior to the way BJJ is trained.
So you can learn something functional off your back, or sit there breathing peacefully “drawing earth energy into your techniques” while someone helps provide “earth energy into your techniques” by introducing your face to the earth through pounding it there.
I always here people say power comes from the ground, So if your on your back on the floor surely your wing chun should be good on the floor???
Presumably if your WC is good with your back on the floor because power comes from the ground, it should be just as good if you’re face down on your stomach. Try that out and let me know how it goes.
My WCK is better from knee on stomach than it is from on my back.
Yeah, you see very little effective G&P from the guy on the bottom. You do see occasional knockouts from kicks from the ground against people who approach the grounded fighter injudiciously (i.e. bent over), e.g. Renzo vs Taktarov.
Groundfighting is taught in TWC. In a nutshell, it involves kicking or taking down a standing opponent to either hurt him long enough or get him far enough away for you to regain your feet and continue the fight from there. There is no concept of ground grappling or positional control, at least none worth discussing.
There are a number of KF styles which explore groundfighting on some detail, and there may even be some secret ones still known to only a few Chinese masters, though IMO there is no evidence of this.
The time has long past for hiding such lights under bushels. There’s huge amounts of money, kudos, national pride, etc avaialble for anyone that can hold their own in MMA against wrestlers or BJJ stylists using TCMA groundfighting.
does your school cover any groundfighting techiniques/escapes etc…
Yes. MY WC school is a Machado BJJ affiliate.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1058204]Or you could give up ridiculous ideas about “drawing earth energy into your techniques” and train a functional art in that area like BJJ or Sambo.[/quote]
If I was learning the “functional” arts of BJJ or Sambo, then I would NOT be posting in a KUNG FU FORUM!
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1058204]The reason that the “ground fighting of kung fu” isn’t known is because it is either non-existent, an after-thought to many systems, or trained in a fashion that is far inferior to the way BJJ is trained.[/quote]
The reason that the “ground fighting of kung fu” isn’t known is because of the Mcdojo phenomenon. So, please don’t blame the messenger.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1058204]So you can learn something functional off your back, or sit there breathing peacefully “drawing earth energy into your techniques” while someone helps provide “earth energy into your techniques” by introducing your face to the earth through pounding it there.[/QUOTE]
I mentioned “earth energy” in reference to the use of stance/roots (with the help of gravity) to generate power. When you are on the ground and on your back, then your back works like your stance would, to generate power for your techniques - strikes and Chin-na/Kumna.
This means that my statement was not a reference to laser beams shooting out of the earth…LOL 
Oh brother, this again…?
[QUOTE=Kansuke;1058226]Oh brother, this again…?[/QUOTE]
this should be the motto of this subforum:D
[QUOTE=Saboi Osmosis;1058120]
I always here people say power comes from the ground, [/QUOTE]
People in WCK SAY lots of things – much of what they say is nonsense. Listening to poor golfers tell you how to play golf only leads to failure.
Your power doesn’t “come from” the ground. It comes from your body.
When NASA found out they couldnt use a pen in space they spend millions of $ and lots of manhours coming up with new type of ink
When soviet union found out the same they used a pencil instead
Both methods works, but which is more sound
jesper, at least the space pen works, i.e. it is functional. It has been proven in the lab and in application (“on the street” as it were).
@HW108. Striking with your back to the ground cannot compare to standing striking. You cannot punch with your body, only localized arm power. Even in standing striking you are not “drawing power from the ground”. The power comes from within - the muscles and sinew. The feeling of “power from the ground” is pure reaction to the force that we issue and/or receive.
[QUOTE=CFT;1058264]jesper, at least the space pen works, i.e. it is functional. It has been proven in the lab and in application (“on the street” as it were).
[/QUOTE]
So does the pencil.
The point is one used a true and tested method, the other spend loads of time and money inventing something new to do the same task.
Or to tie it with this thread. why go reinvent the wheel when you can just study with someone who already has a true and tested method
[QUOTE=CFT;1058264]jesper, at least the space pen works, i.e. it is functional. It has been proven in the lab and in application (“on the street” as it were).
@HW108. Striking with your back to the ground cannot compare to standing striking. You cannot punch with your body, only localized arm power. Even in standing striking you are not “drawing power from the ground”. The power comes from within - the muscles and sinew. The feeling of “power from the ground” is pure reaction to the force that we issue and/or receive.[/QUOTE]
You know nothing of the internals of authentic TCMA.
[QUOTE=jesper;1058256]When NASA found out they couldnt use a pen in space they spend millions of $ and lots of manhours coming up with new type of ink
When soviet union found out the same they used a pencil instead
Both methods works, but which is more sound[/QUOTE]
You do realize that is not a true story? In space, both Americans and Russians use the same pen invented by an American.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1058210]I mentioned “earth energy” in reference to the use of stance/roots (with the help of gravity) to generate power. When you are on the ground and on your back, then your back works like your stance would, to generate power for your techniques - strikes and Chin-na/Kumna.
This means that my statement was not a reference to laser beams shooting out of the earth…LOL :D[/QUOTE]
The ground is a different world. While some of the concepts from TCMA can apply, there are different fundamentals that have to be learned. Without those you are just as likely to do the exact wrong thing in a situation as opposed to the right thing.
Also, typically the “concept” stuff wrestlers have been doing since they were in middle school.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1058446]The ground is a different world. While some of the concepts from TCMA can apply, there are different fundamentals that have to be learned. Without those you are just as likely to do the exact wrong thing in a situation as opposed to the right thing.
[/QUOTE]
+1
Learning grappling after doing CMA for a while isn’t that hard. The mechanics are different but the ideas of disrupting/controlling balance and getting better leverage are constant in both.
CMA wants to stand up, wrestling wants to stay down, that’s the big strategy difference.
[QUOTE=anerlich;1058208]Yes. MY WC school is a Machado BJJ affiliate.[/QUOTE]
I saw Rigan Machado about a month ago - he was out here doing a seminar for some of the guys I train with for 3 days. He’s got tons of ground knowledge. He’s nowhere near in fighting shape lately, but was just fooling around demonstrating a mounted triangle while talking not even locking it up at all, and you’ve got a purple belt passing out from the pressure. Great sequence of moves he taugth during the seminar, and he always gives tests at his seminars with penalties for not getting stuff right. Great stuff and he’s totally fun to go out to dinner with too - stories upon stories. Laid back fun guy.
Here’s a clip of one of his grappling matches at a Sambo tournament in 1994 - just for fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1kbLTOkYww
WCK guys - that’s the quality of person you need teaching your ground fundamentals.
[QUOTE=Eric_H;1058450]+1
Learning grappling after doing CMA for a while isn’t that hard. The mechanics are different but the ideas of disrupting/controlling balance and getting better leverage are constant in both.
CMA wants to stand up, wrestling wants to stay down, that’s the big strategy difference.[/QUOTE]
It’s kind of fun and a good workout if you have a little extra time outside of normal training. Get someone with good fundamentals though that can make you pay for mistakes.
The strategy thing goes back and forth. Wrestlers dictate the pace, strikers get better at takedown defense and blending striking. Some of the best fighters nowadays have wrestling and ground background with improved standup - like Cain Velasquez. When the skill level in takedowns and ground defense evens out, then striking becomes king again. Fighting against better people is as much exploiting skill mismatches as anything else.
But if you train across a decent pool of talent, you can deal with different strategies.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1058446]The ground is a different world. While some of the concepts from TCMA can apply, there are different fundamentals that have to be learned. Without those you are just as likely to do the exact wrong thing in a situation as opposed to the right thing.[/quote]
It depends on what TCMA principles you are using and how you are training them.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1058446]Also, typically the “concept” stuff wrestlers have been doing since they were in middle school.[/QUOTE]
Interesting, perhaps I should frequent wrestling forums to find out about them…