Wing Chun on the ground

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Re: I think I said that before

Originally posted by Sihing73
[B]Hi Phil,

As already mentioned on a previous thread, I think I pointed out that the pole came from outside of the Wing Chun System. I think that it is necessary for our art to continously evolve to meet the needs and threats we may face today. There is nothing wrong, IMHO, with integrating things from outside of the system provided that they are used to enhance and build upon the foundation which has already been laid. I am sure that an examination of the training methods of any art/sport and even educational institution will show changes over time. If not then that entity is most likely on the way to extinction.

Peace,

Dave [/B]

Amen. I couldn’t agree more.

22

As already mentioned on a previous thread, I think I pointed out that the pole came from outside of the Wing Chun System. I think that it is necessary for our art to continously evolve to meet the needs and threats we may face today.
Peace,

Dave

((Sure Dave. However, wing chun defined it’s own pole usage and it blends with wing chun dynamics
and Ip Man’s pole usage is different from others who use
poles.

Sure good things keep evolving… and wing chun has.
Ip Man added his stamp to his art-- so did some of his best students and the best students’s students. And those changes will continue. And- some major shift could occur if a more comprehensive art emerges.

But not all change is progress. And not understanding the art well enough and mixing extraneous things in our media age which dont mesh well isnt progress. IMO

Many who have not learned the fundamentals well- no longer how long they have been around- can be taken down easily. Adding this and that in grappling wont save them from being taken down again. Cant blame the art for that.))Joy

23

I agree with you Joy. Having a strong foundation in Wing Chun is crucial before anyone should think about bringing in anything new to it. One should learn the entire system before anyone can determine what it may be lacking. Thanks for your thoughts.

24

One should learn the entire system before anyone can determine what it may be lacking.

How long does that take? and if you have to learn the whole system before you can determine what is lacking, how can you ever know if/when you have learned the whole system?

Some comments on earlier posts:

The TWC side neutral stance makes single leg attacks more difficult than a stance with a leg forward. However it makes double leg or clinching attacks very much easier. Move to another stance and the takedown artist will also switch his attack.

Throwing a flurry of punches from on top of mount, straight-blast style is not particularly efficient, unless the guy is just about out anyway. If he’s flailing around you might crack your hands on his skull. Far better to control his head - one way is to turn his head to the side and hold his jaw down with your palm, where you can target you strikes more precisely as well as restricting his ability to escape. Another is to get an armwrap and move to sidemount (not side control/ cross side), reputedly Rickson’s favorite position to deliver strikes. Another common tactic is to lay on the guy and arc punches in to head or body.

WC doesn’t really help a lot of you’re stuck here, especially if the guy is smothering you. You want your hands close, covering your face or neck. stick out a tan sao or try to chi sao with the guy here, you’ll get armlocked PDQ. Reducing damage and excape should be your only priority here.

BJJ, or Machado BJJ as taught in Australia, has a centreline principle for establishing and keeping the guard. Development of tactile sensitivity is also essential. So is efficiency,economy, keeping the elbows close to the body. Some of the WC hands can work in part in applying various submissions or sweeps, and people with WC experience can often adapt to a BJJ technique quickler if you explain it in that language.

I think there are gross similarities between WC and BJJ. as there can be found some commonality among manyt MA’s. But if the devil is in the detail, they are chalk and cheese.

TWC has ground fighting. But its sole concern is defending yourself with strikes, mainly kicks, when felled and either taking the guy out from here or getting enough time and space to regain your feet.

That tactic, stylistic considerations aside, can work. Allen Goes used it to excellent effect against Sakuraba in their Pride fight (Belfort much less so in his fight against Sakuraba). Renzo knocked Oleg Taktarov out this way. Of course, both these guys have pretty hot BJJ ground games to back the tactics up.

I have to disagree that you can take WC to a grappling range fgiht with both antagonists on the floor. There is some intersection of WC skills to groung grappling, but that area of intersection is pretty small.

25

Joy :

The wing chun person need not change his engine-there isnt time in a real crisis.
Exactly - you can’t change your engine - when the shit hits the fan, you just do!

This is a potential pitfall for anyone attempting to ‘mix’ their martial arts. It’s important to understand that a martial art style isn’t something you ‘do’ under certain circumstances. You train a martial art style, and it changes how you act (what you do) under certain (perhaps different) circumstances. Think less, be and do!

One could almost say that therefore every martial art style has groundfighting. Even a boxer, when fallen, will carry on fighting as best they know.

IMO - wing chun as a style that focusses largely on understanding pressure (momentum, energy…) is well suited to work on the ground. Of course, your ability to fight on the ground will depend largely on how much you train for it - although the extent of cross-over with stand-up training is an important factor. Very close body to body standing chi sao would be an example of this.

Personally, i haven’t spent a huge amount of time on groundwork - not of much interest to me, and if you’re interested in a degree of quality - the rest of wing chun is huge enough…

26

Good thread AndrewS

Despite the breakdown to the usual WC vs MMA arguments, good thread AndrewS - if people stay on topic!

27

Terence writes:

>None of them make it from personal experience, from having successfully fought a skilled groundfighter; none of them are willing to step up and mix it up with a skilled groundfighter to demonstrate their ability. It’s all theoretical BS.

Hang on for a second there Terence. I chased sifu Emin around on his 1995 seminar tour, picked up as much of his ‘anti-grappling’ as I could, and was out fighting full-contact with it inside of a month, and I’m not the only one. I happily stepped up to all manner of folks with grappling backgrounds for a decade, using the stuff I learned from Emin, and frankly, did ok. Is it the be-all, end-all? No, but I, and a bunch of other folks, have taken it out and done our research.

When I tested what I learned from sifu Emin in terms of ‘antigrappling’ it encouraged me that what he was showing was on the right track, and it has influenced the way in which I’ve studied grappling deeply.

Part of that influence has been an encouragement to go out and study grappling (and other arts), just like he has and continues to do, to take responsibility for my own development.

Part of that influence has been to take certain principles as common in both standing and the floor:

1). Improve position whenever possible with a hierarchy of positions
2). Use attack to improve position- always try to wind up in a better place than you started
3). Use attack as defense- try to stop an opponent’s actions in a way that both counters and gives them something they have to deal with
4). Use defense as attack- try to make it so your counters don’t just stop the other guy, they make his life hell
5). Everything comes from motion

Part of that influence has been in body mechanics:

1). Use a piece sometimes while the rest of you does something else- link and unlink, a defining piece of mechanics for Wing Chun.
2). Use everything when you can, preferably against as little as possible.
3). Use your hips and spine.
4). Use your adduction to potentiate the flexor component of your trunk
5). use your gluts and low back to potentiate the extensor component of your trunk

Part of that influence has been in training:
1). Work live isolated sparring for each action
2). Do massive amounts of open guard work with no hands allowed
3). Work escapes
4). Catch transitional timing for counters

Part of that influence has been specific techniques:

1). Use your feet like hooks- twisting (huen) to break and control when someone grabs your ankles
2). Constantly kick and scissor when on your back, preventing passes with up kicks
3). Try to destabilize at three points before bridging someone off you
4). Move out of the line of an arm bar to take pressure off your shoulder (i.e. try to get off the 90) while removing the legs (nb- if you’re doing this, you’re near the end of the armbar and are basically f*cked, going for a last ditch counter).
5). Stand up with an ankle lock
6). Some specific sweeps vs. the over/under guard pass

I’ve found the first three parts most useful, but that’s because my preference is for learning tools and principles, developing my body, then finding the ‘techniques’ that work for me by getting experience. Generally, when I ‘find’ something, I go check one of my seniors or partners and look for input on fine tuning.

My goal is not to be a guy who does a bunch of different martial arts, but to be a conditioned athlete with a number of strategies which are consistent when standing, on the ground, or with a weapon in hand, with my mechanics and timing in each area reinforcing the other.

This is what I’ve learned from Wing Chun.

FWIW,

Andrew

28

Interesting post Andrew. I’ve often wondered about Emin’s “anti-grappling” stuff. I know many people have scoffed at it, but having developed some of my own unconventional anti-grappling tactics, I’ve always thought that it could have some merit when developed by someone with a wrestling and striking background.

29

Yeah its good stuff and the guy has some cool moves. The stuff he showed us:

Single leg takedown. A tries to pick up Bs front leg and B must keep leg on floor using adductor muscles. He can also push down As head to avoid being taken down.

On the floor:

!)They try and pass your guard you stay facing them. Change over once they succeed.

!!)Keep your knees locked together – they try and break through your knees to get into your guard.

!!!)They underhook your leg in preparation to pass your guard, you trap their head with the underhooked leg and knee them with the other leg.

Variations on !!!)-
if they post other hand over free leg knee them in ribs,
if they block knee with hand bring leg over, do a jut gurk on that arm and kick them in the throat
if they pull their head away as they underhook the leg let it go over then turn it into a lan (bar) gerk and kick them away with the free leg.

!!!)Use a scissor sweep on them and as they go over, turn over post with both hands (so you are facing down) and knee them in the head.

30

Dale,

it’s a different take. Honestly, I’m heavily flavored by more conventional sources, and am now kinda re-addressing this stuff with him, as I haven’t really gone through it since I moved out here. The past two years my ground work has been BJJ no-gi focused (if you can call flaky on again off again training focused in any way).

The experience Emin draws on is pretty impressive, and it breeds some interesting results.

I’ve been doing a fair bit of training with him when he’s in town, and his take on open guard is pretty cool. He uses the adductin of the main stance to keep the knees tight, is a b*tch to split, is constantly working your balance with his knees, moves his body out with lots of lateral hip motion- this combination makes him extremely able to apply the elbow-in changes, which most people characterize as Wing Chun, to control and redirect hand-fighting while striking, until he can percussively sweep.

Haven’t seen him do it on someone good, but I was impressed.

With this, I wonder whether the problems you mention working Wing Chun hands from guard- were you working with a closed guard? Those things do a bit better with some hip usage, motion in transverse or coronal planes, which closed guard kinda limits.

Later,

Andrew

31

Hi Andrew,

Two things –

First, I know some WCK people, especially those with a background in various grappling methods that have and do mix it up with groundfighters. I put Emin (and Kernspecht) in that category. See my next point.

Second, I’m sure Emin’s “anti-grappling system” has merit but it’s not “pure” or “traditional” WCK, it’s his personal system that combines WCK and grappling. That’s not a bad thing. But that’s not what I was talking about – the “WCK has answers on the ground” crew. It’s fairly common knowledge that Emin had a grappling background before coming to WCK, and I think he took that background (understanding things like the “heirarchy of positions”, etc. which are outside of WCK), combined some basic grappling with some of aspects of WCK, emphasized those aspects (to make it easier for his students to incorporate) and presto! Nothing wrong with that – but his antigrappling system is “more” than WCK. I give him credit for doing what he’s done.

As you know, having the tools are one thing, developing them, and then being able to fight skillfully with them is a horse of a different color. A person can’t develop significant groundfighting skill other than by groundfighting with skilled folks. And a person can’t know if what they are training will genuinely work or not without mixing it up with skilled fighters. I know that you and some others are actually doing that – but I also know that there are plenty of “theorists” who aren’t but still believe their views are valid. My complaint is directed at those who have never mixed it up with any skilled groundfighters yet know (LOL) WCK has all the answers.

32

More nonsense:
Second, I’m sure Emin’s “anti-grappling system” has merit but it’s not “pure” or “traditional” WCK, it’s his personal system that combines WCK and grappling.

(((The conclusion is already confirmed in the premise- darned if you do- darned if you dont—

“WCK is no good on the ground.
If you develop defenses on the ground it must not be wck—
must be something personal and not pure and smuggled from previous experience.
Therefore, wck is no good on the ground.”

A different view—
Spend quality time in learning wing chun. Practice. Experiment gradually in keeping with development stage.
Wing chun takes quality time in learning- more to it than the sequences in forms.
Practice not being taken to the ground. Develop a live strong but flexible
stance and mobility. If taken to the ground play your own game rather than out envisioning out-grappling a grappler. Learn wing chun attack lines well. Sense the balance points and use the platforms for power delivery that open up whenever they do. You need to sense these things.
Be relaxed. Develop control. And deliverable short power
from all possible angles for strikes or pre strike controls.
The wing chun engine can work with and use many gears and clutches and transmissions of power delivery..
Madame wing chun, Leung Jan, Ip Man and "your"momma
(or Couture or Lidell)wont help you- but your understanding
of wing chun, self confidence and guts could..

Be at peace with yourself- depending on time and place
all kinds of bad luck can occur besides the appearance of
someone interested in taking you to the ground.

Gradually build up your wing chun skills- the chances are slim that you will be attacked by Rickson at the street corner
tomorrow.

Not just theory but no chest thumping on “experience” either- thank you. And- i am not in the marketing business.

BTW- directed at those seriously interested in wing chun
and not directed at wc skeptics and trolls.

If you dont have enough confidence in wing chun- its ok to
find somethong that you can use. Conquer fear- there is life before and after wing chun ( or grappling).
Develop awareness, preparation, best possible good health rather than paranoia.

33

Joy wrote:

More nonsense:
Second, I’m sure Emin’s “anti-grappling system” has merit but it’s not “pure” or “traditional” WCK, it’s his personal system that combines WCK and grappling.

(((The conclusion is already confirmed in the premise- darned if you do- darned if you dont—

**I have a WCK student that was a Div. 1, NCAA, varsity wrestler. The fact that he can fight on the ground has nothing to do with his WCK skills (he could do that, like Boztepe, before he came to WCK).

**Joy, as an example, WCK will not help you escape (or survive) the mount or the guard against anyone good, it doesn’t give us those tools. The bridge, elbow-escape, shrimping, knowledge of submissions (so we don’t get caught in them), etc. aren’t in our WCK toolbox. Nor do we have the tools that will permit us to take advantage of the mount (the submisions, associate body movements, etc.) or pass their guard. Yip Man did not teach groundfighting, nor did YKS/Sum or any other traditional source. Moreoever, even with those tools, it takes hundreds of hours of practice (live grappling with resisting, skilled opponents) to develop it significantly. Who in WCK does that?

“WCK is no good on the ground.
If you develop defenses on the ground it must not be wck—
must be something personal and not pure and smuggled from previous experience.
Therefore, wck is no good on the ground.”

**If a WCK practitioner gets knocked to the ground, sure there are things they can do, like kick or punch, etc. A boxer would do that too! But that doesn’t mean boxing has groundfighting. Neither boxing or WCK is a groundfightng method, neither really prepares us for dealing with good groundfighters. Experience will prove that. Having a few things one can try does not make one a competant groundfighter. Similarly, BJJ has some stand-up that enables them to try and survive until they can get the take down, but it no one would say BJJ hascompetant stand-up – they don’t have the tools, they don’t train stand-up, etc.

A different view—
Spend quality time in learning wing chun. Practice. Experiment gradually in keeping with development stage.

**That begs the question of how can one determine what quality WCK is? By theory? Reputation? Ability to do chi sao well?

Wing chun takes quality time in learning- more to it than the sequences in forms.
Practice not being taken to the ground. Develop a live strong but flexible
stance and mobility. If taken to the ground play your own game rather than out envisioning out-grappling a grappler. Learn wing chun attack lines well. Sense the balance points and use the platforms for power delivery that open up whenever they do. You need to sense these things.
Be relaxed. Develop control. And deliverable short power
from all possible angles for strikes or pre strike controls.
The wing chun engine can work with and use many gears and clutches and transmissions of power delivery..

**This is all theory – and sounds like “trust in the force, Luke”: it sounds great, but it won’t work. Let’s see evidence of your approach rather than theory. There’s a reason we don’t see the evidence: because things won’t work like that. Go visit a good groundfighter and see for yourself. Have them take the mount and see what you can do. Have them put you in the guard and see what you can do. You don’t need to take my word for it. (But I would be willing to put some money on it. :wink: ).

Madame wing chun, Leung Jan, Ip Man and "your"momma
(or Couture or Lidell)wont help you- but your understanding
of wing chun, self confidence and guts could..

Be at peace with yourself- depending on time and place
all kinds of bad luck can occur besides the appearance of
someone interested in taking you to the ground.

Gradually build up your wing chun skills- the chances are slim that you will be attacked by Rickson at the street corner
tomorrow.

**Very true, but you do stand the chance of being taken down and put in a head-and-arm or mounted by someone that has some high school wrestling (and who has watched a UFC and thinks “gound-and-pound” is great), and if you don’t have the skills, you’ll find yourself unable to cope. Just try getting out of a solid standing headlock that some strong guy slaps on you and you’ll see WCK’s limits (and if you think you’ll “grab the peaches” or “poke the eyes”, it’s because you never had someone that knew what to do put a headlock on you – you’ll never get the chance).

Not just theory but no chest thumping on “experience” either- thank you. And- i am not in the marketing business.

BTW- directed at those seriously interested in wing chun
and not directed at wc skeptics and trolls.

**I’m not a “WC skeptic” but a WCK realist – it’s fine and dandy to have beliefs, it’s another thing to step up and test them. Of course, everyone is highlyskilled behind closed doors. The bottom line is no WCK person without grappling experience has ever been able to deal with a good groundfighter on the ground. I’m not saying everyone should study groundfighting. If you don’t want to do it, don’t. If you don’t want to be a well-rounded fighter, that’s fine. You can be really good at WCK without having any ground game.

If you dont have enough confidence in wing chun- its ok to
find somethong that you can use. Conquer fear- there is life before and after wing chun ( or grappling).
Develop awareness, preparation, best possible good health rather than paranoia.

**Lots of people have confidence because they are deluded. And some claim to have confidence. But what I don’t understand is that if they are so confident, why the reluctance to put themselves in positions to prove what they believe?

34

Terence asks:
But what I don’t understand is that if they are so confident, why the reluctance to put themselves in positions to prove what they believe?

Terence-
There are folks who do want to prove to themselves that what they can do “works”. And some have. But not everyone will get their psyches jarred because they have not proved it you or others folks on a side of an imaginary line in the sand.

I made my point and you made yours. We have never met. Why not let it go at that?..

35

Terence,

fair enough. Anyone who thinks you can get better without putting the work in is so far gone and delusional that they aren’t worth the time, though.

Terence and Joy,

why don’t we try to keep this thread concrete, and add a few specifics.

Nick,

that body mechanic for stopping the single is freaky and weird and I’m still playing with it- it’s something I haven’t developed. I spent about 1/2 hr working on just that with sifu Emin last month. I couldn’t get his foot more than 3 inches off the floor, switching between singles and doubles - lifting, and not trying to turn the corner or anything, just going into his mechanic trying to deadlift his &*^&^( leg to no avail. The head control helped but there was some composite of adduction, hamstring work (which he kept emphasizing), and hip usage, that I need to play with more.

Any thoughts? Have you analyzed that at all? It seems related to the kick-through/ stomp through defenses to singles, but he seemed to imply that the linkages should be constant.

Later,

Andrew

36

Originally posted by t_niehoff
I have a WCK student that was a Div. 1, NCAA, varsity wrestler.

I have sidai that were Ohio State first string wrestlers, 10 year Army Ranger veterans, and NHB fighters.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
WCK will not help you escape (or survive) the mount or the guard against anyone good, it doesn’t give us those tools.

Said Ohio State wrestler, when last we tested, could actually get me (and my fellow seniors) to the ground less than 1 out of 20 shoots. The Army Ranger, more often. But that’s why we train, no?

Point being that a WC curriculum DID and DOES give us the tools to test against resisting opponents who know what they are doing, and to come out of such a test on the winning side.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Lots of people have confidence because they are deluded. And some claim to have confidence. But what I don’t understand is that if they are so confident, why the reluctance to put themselves in positions to prove what they believe?

Some people only feel the need to prove things to themselves, and don’t owe anything to anyone else.

Maybe if those people saw some proof (other than forum claims) from those demanding the proof they would me more likely to meet halfway. Or maybe they just don’t feel the need to have a swordfight.

-Levi

37

Just pick a thick newspaper and make a roll out of it.Strike repeatedly on the head or nose with it…I know it worked on all dogs hugging my leg.

38

Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]
Nick,

that body mechanic for stopping the single is freaky and weird and I’m still playing with it- it’s something I haven’t developed. I spent about 1/2 hr working on just that with sifu Emin last month. I couldn’t get his foot more than 3 inches off the floor, switching between singles and doubles - lifting, and not trying to turn the corner or anything, just going into his mechanic trying to deadlift his &*^&^( leg to no avail. The head control helped but there was some composite of adduction, hamstring work (which he kept emphasizing), and hip usage, that I need to play with more.

Any thoughts? Have you analyzed that at all? It seems related to the kick-through/ stomp through defenses to singles, but he seemed to imply that the linkages should be constant.[/B]

Yeah. at 6’2 and 10 years of weights im not small but when i tried to pick his leg up of the floor all i did was pull my self into him. The WT stance is plenty different from ours so im not so au fait with the mechanics. Visualising compressing a steel spring between the knees might go so some way though. Actually I remember him saying ‘I bet some of you are thinking ill go and do leg adductions on the weight machines (which spookily was exactly what i was thinking) but this is about isometric/static strength not dynamic strength’.

FWIW, Ricardo Viera (leo’s brother) showed me recently what hed do in that scenario i.e. immediately turn the corner, snake his hand through to the far leg and do a rear double ankle pick.

He also had some cool single defences. For eg he has shot to your right leg head inside. You snkae left hand through your own legs and grab the back of his left tricep and grab his right arm with your right. Step forward with left leg (the free one) sit down on your left foot and kick straight up with right foot. This will flip him right over and you move into side control.

39

Andrew,

This says it all.

Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]My goal is not to be a guy who does a bunch of different martial arts, but to be a conditioned athlete with a number of strategies which are consistent when standing, on the ground, or with a weapon in hand, with my mechanics and timing in each area reinforcing the other.

This is what I’ve learned from Wing Chun.
[/B]

Great post!

40

Originally posted by taltos
[B]I have sidai that were Ohio State first string wrestlers, 10 year Army Ranger veterans, and NHB fighters.
Said Ohio State wrestler, when last we tested, could actually get me (and my fellow seniors) to the ground less than 1 out of 20 shoots. The Army Ranger, more often. But that’s why we train, no?
Point being that a WC curriculum DID and DOES give us the tools to test against resisting opponents who know what they are doing, and to come out of such a test on the winning side.

Some people only feel the need to prove things to themselves, and don’t owe anything to anyone else.

Maybe if those people saw some proof (other than forum claims) from those demanding the proof they would me more likely to meet halfway. Or maybe they just don’t feel the need to have a swordfight.
-Levi [/B]

Good post Levi, especially the last paragraph, some have no need to prove anything to anyone, it’s called a lack of ego, and strong faith based on one’s experience and training that has gotten them solid quality skills, already proven through the various test that are required from those responsible and in charge of their training and instruction as well as one’s own standards and internal quality control. Quality is quality gentlemen and ladies, it is undeniable when it is perfomed and seen, and it is undeniable when confronted by another in physical combat.

James