Wing Chun on the ground

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Originally posted by sihing
some have no need to prove anything to anyone, it’s called a lack of ego, and strong faith based on one’s experience and training that has gotten them solid quality skills, already proven through the various test that are required from those responsible and in charge of their training and instruction as well as one’s own standards and internal quality control.
If you want to excel in any area of endeavor, you must continue to prove, test, and improve yourself…

Not to others…

But to yourself…

Not for ego..

But to keep up with the evolutionary process that is the natural part of all human efforts.

Fail to do so and you will be left behind by those who do.

42

Andrew, Nick

Great stuff very much of interest to me. Keep it coming. I’ve seen the Emin Boztepe and Gutieerez takes on Antigrappling and like what i see.

Any of you two got clips of what you’re talking about to put up??? I for one would be interested to see them.

Kev

43

Originally posted by Vankuen
[B]No OJ it’s not such a big deal and one can learn it in a relatively short time…that’s why I can’t seem to understand one simple thing…

Why no one on here can just friggin admit that wing chun simply does not have any ground game. Period. It’s like the people here are almost afraid…as if they’re going to turn to dust the minute they say : “no…wing chun does not have any training in “this” area of fighting.”
[/B]

Hi Vankuen,
A few years (mid90`s)back I got a call from a friend asking me to sponsor a seminar for a visiting prominent WT instructor.
I happily agreed and let all the local wingchun schools know about it. On the day I thought I was at BJJ seminar!
He had everyone doing what looked like Wing Chun, doing drills from various ground positions, very effective and spurred a new whole realm of exploration.
The circuluum was very organised with a wide range of counter drills from each ground fighting position.
So I think there is a segment of the Wing Chun world developing this facet, it may take a couple generation to catch to up to the level of ground skill that the gracies have, but I think Wing Chun principles in Ground fighting has the potential to surpass BJJ in reality no rules fighting.
Just another View
Mark Rasmus

http://au.geocities.com/markrasmus/retreat.html

44

“but I think Wing Chun principles in Ground fighting has the potential to surpass BJJ in reality no rules fighting.” (Mark Rasmus)

Well when you consider that in NHB events BJJ people also use striking and kicking…then your theory does not hold water. While it’s true that certain Wing Chun principles and techniques can be useful while grappling on the ground (I use them myself)…the fact is that Wing Chun is not a grappling art…and will NEVER surpass BJJ, or Catch Wrestling, or Sambo, or Greco-Roman, or Judo, or any other grappling system…ON THE GROUND. There is not enough leverage - when on the ground - for a striking art to prevail against a grappling art. Grappling arts are made for the ground - and for standing fighting at the range where strikes can’t be made effectively…because there is not enough space.

You can take anti-grappling moves only so far - and no further.

45

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
…because there is not enough space.
You can take anti-grappling moves only so far - and no further.

You may be right…
We play a game called tiger claw. The rules are simple, find the eye, throat or groin with the claw in the grapple on the ground from different positions. I have played with some good BJJ people, not great but good. In grappling I am a nobody. So if I can hold my own, somebody who spent a few hours on the matt every day for a few years would do much better. Just train the tiger claw, squeeze the tennis ball when you drive the car to work and make your fingers like steel. Obviously there is allot more to it than that, but its a start.
and I may be wrong and you may be right…
Regards
Mark

46

I agree with Victor, WC skills can’t surpass Grappling skills ON THE GROUND. Most grappling arts have spent as many years developing the techniques and training methods for grappling as WC has for it’s game (stand-up/striking).

But it seems the idea of ‘anti-grappling’ has been pinned as being a form of grappling or has incorporated aspects of grappling arts. IMO, ‘anti-grappling’ would be a set of tactics designed to PREVENT a person from grappling (of which I believe WC has many).

For the inevitable ‘what if’ (what if they already have you in a hold, lock, taken you to ground…etc.) the idea of ‘anti-grappling’ has failed and you are now grappling, and the one who has more flight time or better training methods will prevail.

Besides, chi sau looks funny when you’re rolling around on the ground.:wink: :smiley:

47

“Just train the tiger claw, squeeze the tennis ball when you drive the car to work and make your fingers like steel. Obviously there is allot more to it than that, but its a start.”

This is hardly news in grappling or groundfighting circles. Grip training is done by many competitive grapplers, probably with more commitment than most WCers. A strong grip is a HUGE asset to a grappler (or any MAist for that matter).

Many train to add such “dirt” to their delivery systems. on the ground. Check out Gene Lebell’s Grappling Master for some graphic illustrations of illegal techniques such as that you mention.

Kimura, the great Japanese Judoka who gave his name to the lower figure 4 arm lock, and who broke Helio GRacie’s arm in a challenge match, had the nickname “groin squeezer”, for reasons fairly easy to guess.

The old BJJ saying: he who controls, bites. The guy who controls his opponent is the one who can deliver the gouge, rip or tiger claw with greatest effectiveness.

I wish MAists would learn from each other, rather than trying to come up with ways to make WC beat BJJ - and these ARE recent innovations, mostly by Emin - just becaue Emin and the Gracies had a silly misunderstanding some years ago.

“but I think Wing Chun principles in Ground fighting has the potential to surpass BJJ in reality no rules fighting”

Until someone pulls it off in a major competitive event, potential is all that there will be (in the opinion of some, anyway).

While people could be experimenting with and possibly “improving” WC for ground use, BJJers and other groundfighters have innovated for the last 50-odd years, and will continue to innovate. While WC is moving ahead, so are they. Arguably, innovation and evolution is easier, faster and more effective in non-traditional arts like BJJ and Western grappling.

I don’t really care if WC beats BJJ or vice versa. I do both , so whatever happens I win.

48

Originally posted by anerlich
I don’t really care if WC beats BJJ or vice versa. I do both , so whatever happens I win.

Hi Andrew,
I enjoyed hearing your comments, you appear more qualified than me to discuss grappling. As you do both arts.
How compatible do you find Bjj and WC, do they blend well in your training or do you find yourself switching mindsets between arts? I have been contemplating sponsoring a few seminars for the club on grappling, but I havent wanted the schools focus to move away from WC.
What are your experiences on this?
Look forward to your reply.
Mark Rasmus

49

I answered this n part in an earlier post on this thread. There are some common attributes and qualities, and I used to think that there was a lot of intersection, now I’m moving away from that opinion - there are some areas of intersection, but they are not great.

IMO, its like running and swimming. No matter how good a runner you are, you still have to learn to swim from the word go. Saying “a truly excellent runner should be able to prevail in the water” or “you can adapt the way you run to be able to keep up with champion swimmers”, just doesn’t hold water (sorry, the bad pun was irresistible).

The compatibility of the two arts concernes me less than whether as a combination they cover as wide a range of situations as possible. Arguably, if they are too compatible, they might be too much alike and have the same weaknesses.

NHB and MMA fighters are a pretty pragmatic bunch. They don’t stick with boxing, MT and BJJ because of lineage loyalties, traditions, and they’re not out there trying to fight for the “purity” of these styles.

If someone could demonstrate to the MMA community that WC principles were superior to what they are doing, they’d pick it up in a flash. There’s money involved (including plenty for any successful WC’er) and STRONG desires to win. That (demonsrtation of WC superiority) is yet to happen for some reason.

BJJ practitioners borrow, adapt, and steal techniques and entire methodologies for each other, adapting them or even casting them away if their opponents devise counter strategies.

Too many WCers won’t change or adapt because they place their faith in doctrines set down by people long dead, and are quick to call innovators or those seeking different paths heretics, charlatans and imposters. Some claim to be Buddhists, Taoists or seekers after enlightenment, but their talk is all ego. This happens in boxing and BJJ too, but in an environment where regular bouts and challenges are the name of the game, pragmatism generally trounces dogma.

Not all or even most, but some. Even one is too many.

Which approach is more likely to meet the challenges of changing times?

50

Originally posted by anerlich
Too many WCers won’t change or adapt because they place their faith in doctrines set down by people long dead, and are quick to call innovators or those seeking different paths heretics, charlatans and imposters. Some claim to be Buddhists, Taoists or seekers after enlightenment, but their talk is all ego. This happens in boxing and BJJ too, but in an environment where regular bouts and challenges are the name of the game, pragmatism generally trounces dogma.

Hi Andrew,
The reason I think most people dont want to change WC to a ground fighting art, is they have the idea that it is too dangerous to go to the ground. Because in a real fight, the guy you are fighting will most probaly have a friend who is going to kick your head in. One on One in a controlled environment, BJJ will most probaly win 9/10 times.
But if I reflect on the years of doing bouncing and the confrontations that I had had, I would be in big trouble in most of them if I went to the ground. I am a big guy and every fight I have had in my youth outside of work, was against a group. This reinforced my view on stand up fighting.

> "Some claim to be Buddhists, Taoists or seekers after enlightenment, but their talk is all ego."AN

This is a bit harsh and I presume you are targeting it at me due to the posts I put up on Buddhism and my link to a Buddhist website.
But you are right!
It is all ego(unless you already attained enlightenment)
We all operate out of ego! The difference is that the Buddhist or Taoist is dedicating their training to mastering and refining the ego, the competitor is in alll probablity going the opposite direction? But I might be wrong.

I believe Wing Chun is an art in a continuous state of evolution so the incorporation of ground fighting is inevitable. It will just take a few generations to refine.

Just another View
Mark Rasmus

http://au.geocities.com/markrasmus/retreat.html

51

“The reason I think most people dont want to change WC to a ground fighting art, is they have the idea that it is too dangerous to go to the ground…”

WHO said anything about CHANGING Wing Chun to a ground fighting art?

Adding ground skills to the Wing Chun arsenal…sure.

Adding standing grappling skills to the Wing chun arsenal…sure.

As to avoiding the ground in real life situations - since he may have friends in the vicinity…that’s just common sense.

BUT FIGHTING ON THE GROUND when you have to - because that’s where the fight took you - like it or not…or grappling in the standing clinch because that’s where the fight took you…

these skills are an absolute must.

Why?

Because this is the reality that we face today - that’s why.

Adaptation is the name of the game.

52

Originally posted by Mark Rasmus
[B]Hi Andrew,
The reason I think most people dont want to change WC to a ground fighting art, is they have the idea that it is too dangerous to go to the ground. Because in a real fight, the guy you are fighting will most probaly have a friend who is going to kick your head in. One on One in a controlled environment, BJJ will most probaly win 9/10 times.
Honestly Mark, is there ever a range of fighting that is “safe”? Fighting is fighting is fighting. There should be no bias in it. All the wars past, the greatest warriors fought, and fought however they needed to in order to win the battle, they didn’t try to conform the combat to a specialized method…it is what it is…and it is the fighter’s way to be as best prepared as possible. Limiting yourself to only one method is the act of a blinded fool.

But if I reflect on the years of doing bouncing and the confrontations that I had had, I would be in big trouble in most of them if I went to the ground. I am a big guy and every fight I have had in my youth outside of work, was against a group. This reinforced my view on stand up fighting.
The fight doesn’t have to necessarily go to the ground…however I don’t recall too many bouncers being allowed to pound on the clientel. (sp) Best I recall most of the bouncers I knew all had to use some sort of submission or controlling technique to “escort” their problems to the door. Not pound them into submission.

> “Some claim to be Buddhists, Taoists or seekers after enlightenment, but their talk is all ego.”

This is a bit harsh and I presume you are targeting it at me due to the posts I put up on Buddhism and my link to a Buddhist website.
But you are right!
It is all ego(unless you already attained enlightenment)
We all operate out of ego! The difference is that the Buddhist or Taoist is dedicating their training to mastering and refining the ego, the competitor is in alll probablity going the opposite direction? But I might be wrong.
Relax, He’s not talking about you in particular I don’t think, he’s talking about all the people on this forum who refuse to face reality but instead stay nice and snug in their little bubbles or stories and lineage and rules for something that has none.

I believe Wing Chun is an art in a continuous state of evolution so the incorporation of ground fighting is inevitable. It will just take a few generations to refine.
True…it looks as if it’s going to be a loooong time before people of the traditional arts will come to see the light

Just another View
Mark Rasmus

http://au.geocities.com/markrasmus/retreat.html [/B]

53

Hi,

Heres a bit of trivia for you. Recently, one of the Gracies girls came over here to Japan. She choked out a very egotistical jujitsu instructor on TV. Having his ass kisked by a girl… Didnt go down too well with Japanese pride. The interesting part is she was exceptionally feminine. It was so funny to see the change from the cute girl in the hot red evening dress turn into the BJJ mauler for the challenge match.

Mark

54

(sorry for cross post but similar topic)

I don’t rule out the possibility that the Wing Chun system has potential for groundwork, especially since so many here are so sure it doesn’t. :smiley: Wing Chun concepts are not limited to any particular method or way, Wing Chun teaches, more than anything else, to use what is most economical in a given situation; WC structure is created by applying the concepts to the body’s available tools, we think, just for standup – this is what has created the system’s tools and techniques, well if you can apply these concepts to create a standup system then you can tweak them to create WC Ground & Pound IMO – that assumes the brilliant founders of this system never considered groundwork necessary. :confused:

In any case all system concepts are sound and may be applied even to things that don’t fit in with the traditional WC paradigm; Bruce applied WC concepts to everything he did, WC or not, including large circular techniques that are not nearly efficient enough for Wing Chun to call her own.

These concepts IMO can be applied to anything, something I’ll be looking into, including WC Ground & Pound, which some people have already been working on apparently. Anyone seen that new NHB Wing Chun DVD, it supposedly has lots of G&P ala WC…

55

AndrewN,

as far as overlap goes. I think one of the most difficult things for me to reconcile between WT and some (very good) BJJ that I’ve picked up is that there is a certain BJJ game that favors being ‘like an anaconda’- a slow smashing game, which favors incremental improvements in position, muscular endurance, and static strength. This is antithetical to what I’m trying to develop in my standup game (obviously), and while occasionally necessary (I’m thinking of the 5 minutes I spent with my partner in half-guard yesterday, playing with his head and preventing his pass until I could get double underhooks for the reversal) these static moments seem to develop some bad habits. Part of that is perhaps not having an immediate solution to a problem, but some of it, is that sometimes, in grappling, you just wind up tied up looking for something, and trying to be in constant motion will just put you in a worse position.

I’m not stating this well, just trying to think it through a little by writing.

Andrew

56

Andrew S,

I know what you mean. While a fast BJJ game can be almost overwhelming if you are on the receiving end, the speed differential between standup striking and grappling, generally, is huge.

“well if you can apply these concepts to create a standup system then you can tweak them to create WC Ground & Pound IMO”

Nothing to stop you, I guess. Whether starting from first principles in a groundfighting unrelated art when BJJ and Vale Tudo have been doing it for the greater part of last century is pragmatic (which I hope Wing Chun is in the eyes of some at least), requires consideration.

There’s mony and fame for the taking for anyone that can make WC principles work in the NHB arena … but for some reason this has yet to happen.

“that assumes the brilliant founders of this system never considered groundwork necessary.”

That’s too big a leap of faith and logic IMO. Perhaps it was totally overlooked rather than discarded, or perhaps the founders were not the transcendental geniuses some like to paint them to be. If the founders of WC are geniuses, then people such as Kano, Helio, Carlos Sr and Rickson deserve such honorifics every bit as much.

“Bruce applied WC concepts to everything he did, WC or not, including large circular techniques that are not nearly efficient enough for Wing Chun to call her own.”

I think that’s highly debatable. Bruce was moving away from rather than deeper into WC toward the end of his life. WC people seem to coopt Bruce as a poster boy when it suits them, trash him when it doesn’t.

“is they have the idea that it is too dangerous to go to the ground”

Indeed it is. Thinking you will always have a choice is IMO even more dangerous.

“This is a bit harsh and I presume you are targeting it at me due to the posts I put up on Buddhism and my link to a Buddhist website.”

I’ve not read the posts you mention. I was thinking of others of far greater commercial profile when I wrote that. I have no problem with Buddhism, only those who abuse it to further personal agenda.

57

Terrific interchanges between the two of you…Andrew and Andrew.

Much food for thought.

One of the reasons why I prefer Catch to BJJ is precisely because the slow anaconda game has two major drawbacks, as I see it.

  1. There is almost always “something” you can do to facilitate the fight - WITHOUT opening yourself up to defeat…instead of being in a static ground position for “5 minutes” or more…and again I’m going to say that there are ways to pass a guard or submit the guard player that I don’t see being used very often in UFC, PRIDE, etc…

as well as relatively fast ways to get back up to one’s feet from the guard…or to a ground position that is more controlling.

(And again I’m going to refer people to Sakuraba’s grappling game - he’s always in motion - and has never been submitted).

  1. You can’t fight in a static ground position for “5 minutes” or more without BEGGING for someone else to get involved; and if it’s a friend of your opponent’s…LOL.
58

You can’t fight in a static ground position for “5 minutes” or more without BEGGING for someone else to get involved; and if it’s a friend of your opponent’s…LOL.

Is this why we never saw a Gracie fight clip that was not involving a dozen of Gracie brothers/cousins/uncles etc, surrounding the fight area?..:wink:

59

Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]AndrewN,

as far as overlap goes. I think one of the most difficult things for me to reconcile between WT and some (very good) BJJ that I’ve picked up is that there is a certain BJJ game that favors being ‘like an anaconda’- a slow smashing game, which favors incremental improvements in position, muscular endurance, and static strength. This is antithetical to what I’m trying to develop in my standup game (obviously), and while occasionally necessary (I’m thinking of the 5 minutes I spent with my partner in half-guard yesterday, playing with his head and preventing his pass until I could get double underhooks for the reversal) these static moments seem to develop some bad habits. Part of that is perhaps not having an immediate solution to a problem, but some of it, is that sometimes, in grappling, you just wind up tied up looking for something, and trying to be in constant motion will just put you in a worse position.

I’m not stating this well, just trying to think it through a little by writing.

Andrew [/B]

Although I’m not studying BJJ or any grappling specific art, I’ve noticed the same thing in my observations, only exemption is when one is far superior to the other (I downloaded a home movie video of Rickson Gracie sparring all the students attending one of his seminars. It was quite a site to see him taking everyone out one by one in a minute or less the majority of the time.) The thing I have noticed with grappling and why this happens is that on the ground you can control you opponents actions much easier than standing, especially if your skilled in it, just due to mobilty issues. If your on the ground, there is little mobility, whereas if your standing and getting pummelled, you can always “Run” away. WC concept and philosophy is similar to the ground grappling in that it tries to do the samething standing up, limit what the opponent can do by trapping his arms and striking while at the same time trapping the footwork. This is much harder to do just for the reason I gave above, anyone can just run away when it is attempted.

James

60

Originally posted by anerlich
[B]
“Bruce applied WC concepts to everything he did, WC or not, including large circular techniques that are not nearly efficient enough for Wing Chun to call her own.”

I think that’s highly debatable. Bruce was moving away from rather than deeper into WC toward the end of his life. WC people seem to coopt Bruce as a poster boy when it suits them, trash him when it doesn’t.
[/B]

Not really.

This is very clear upon review of what JKD is and how it came about as well as Bruce’s writings on the subject.

Bruce expressed thoughts on refining and tightening up Boxing movements, he felt they ‘lacked directness’ and were expressed in an exagerated fashion with too much wasted movement. He attempted to streamline them.

He created the JKD Hook Kick by applying WC concepts to the Round Kick.

He applied these concepts using tools from Wing Chun and Fencing to create his Lead Straight.

He applied the same concepts to the traditional side kick.

Those who sparred with him or observed such training have commented many times that Bruce would play around a lot with different things, but when it got serious, he would stop hit, enter and trap, I can relate.. :smiley:

Bruce was not allowed to teach Wing Chun, he also hadn’t finished the system, so he adapted all the theory he had to what was available to him, and he created JKD, The Way of the Intercepting Fist, essentially encapsulating Wing Chun theory in the name JKD itself.

JKD is generally thought of as a Wing Chun derivative. Dan Inosanto has commented many times that the core art of Bruce’s JKD was Wing Chun. Dan goes on to say that he applied more of a FMA core to what is now his JKD.

When Bruce came to the US he was a Wing Chun guy bottom line, that’s what he had trained, bringing all the strengths and weaknesses that comes with it. He continued to grow and develop but clearly the driving concepts and theory applied to his study and creative process was very much Wing Chun.

After all, that’s where Bruce came from and, after all, these are some of the most thoughtful and powerful combat concepts ever devised, spawned from thousands of years of combative, mathematical and philosophical, et al study in China – this is what drives this system, the concepts are unbeatable, but it’s up to those training to put them to good use and that’s what Bruce did.

Anyone who thinks basic Wing Chun concepts can’t be applied to X, where X is come kind of physical dynamic with a tangible objective doesn’t get the concepts IMO.

Try and reinvent the wheel? No way! Try and replace a wooden horse and buggy wheel with a steel belted radial – Yes, any day!