Wing Chun & Anti Grappling

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Those guys are on the right track. That’s the kind of contact that should be going on at sihing’s level 10 “real world” grading.
You’re kidding, right! Maybe you’re going for the Best Troll award for 2004, at my expense, or something. :wink:
I don’t think you need to be trained to take a senseless beating; we can all do that naturally. There is no training value in that, IMO. If someone “trains” like that, and this is what you guys mean by sparring, then I think you’re on the wrong track. Everybody out of the pool!!

At the very least, you’re on a track that I have no interest in. But hey, what the he11 do I know - I just do folk dancing. :rolleyes:

FYI, I’m about to leave on a business trip for the week, so I may not be able to reply until next weekend. But I’m really curious to know if this is what other people who call “good training”?

Thanks,

Looking at these videos,this is what anybody agressive can do without any martial art training of any kind!
I was fighting better when I was twelve in the schoolyard.

Umm,

guys, the contact is a little heavy, and there are a bunch of times the break should have come earlier, but that definitely qualifies as ‘good training’, in my book. My b*tch would be with the referee, not the fighters.

I think those are Hungarian WT clips, but they may be Danish.

The Danes, who have a very high ‘technical’ level of skill are also practical and have been running monthly open in-system fullcontact ‘Fight Club’ since the mid-nineties, usually doing a couple of hours of practical live drilling followed by fights for whoever wants them, followed by post-fight tape analysis.

If you look at some earlier clips for the same pair of light blue shorts, you see one of the guys is getting way better.

This sort of thing is definitely an important part of learning (though the break should come quicker on the repetitive head contact).

Andrew

The Kong Sao clip is from the country of Estonia… just east of Russia by Sweden and Finland I believe.

Although these guys don’t seem to be using very much Wing Chun, it is full contact sparring. We need to have full contact sparring in order to get as close to real life fighting as possible. For 4 different reasons:

  1. Getting the mindset of what its like under real pressure.
  2. Feeling what its like to hit and get hit back
  3. Get the physical ability you need
  4. Know if your techniques will really work.

Everybody is entitled to have his own opinions about this but IMO:

Fighting with gloves and a big helmet is not what I call “pressure” or feeling what it is to get hit and hit back.
Throwing wild punches all over the place is not “technique” even if the other guy lacks the “technique” to stop them most of the times.Also,physical hability (?) without mental habilities,method and control is nothing in my book.
This is just brawlling.Anybody can do that when ****ed off. :wink:

OJ,

those faceguards do f*ck-all to dampen concussive impact; thye mainly cut down on the dangers of broken bones in the face.

Some people see slop here. I see guys staying vertical in the clinch to defend and strike, stopping singles, cutting angles when facing is lost (the guy in the blue shorts with the quick beatdown to the back of the head), bad posture being abused in the clinch, nice knees from side mount, submission by striking, good use of downward elbows (and demonstration that their use in takedown defense is best when vertical posture and bodyweight are employed, not just lat), excellent forward pressure and aggression, and great taste in music.

Are these pro level MMA fights? No, but these guys have been getting better every time they post a clip for the last year or so, and it’s clear they’ve put in a lot of work. This pack of kids ('cos if there’s anyone on those clips over 23, I’d be shocked) looks far sharper than any of that old rooftop footage of training matches of people in Hong Kong of the same age who so many venerate.

Frankly, with this experience before 25, some of those people are going to be decent enough to go pro, and are going to toy with the theoreticians in their own game very soon, as the thing you wanking idealists miss is that all theory is derived from practice.

One frantic moment where ‘theory’ works is worth months, if not years of drilling, the drilling is simply there to set up the conditions to allow you body to work according to ‘theory’.

Later,

Andrew

P.S. Yeah, they really need work on their escapes. And need to train with people besides WT folks.

Hi Andrew,

I see Emin has some Anti Grappling videos/DVDs out. My question is (and in fact the rest of the series) would you consider them a good Buy. I ask cause my interest of Antigrappling concepts has been stimulated somewhat as of late.

Kev

“Wanking idealists”!..

Frankly AndrewS!..Can you share on your opinions without stepping into that zone?..:rolleyes:
Yes,I see slop and I’m not alone. Feel free to disagree without getting insulting…Or personal.

Fighting with gloves and a big helmet is not what I call “pressure” or feeling what it is to get hit and hit back.
Those that have been hit hard in this kind of gear, know that it is pressure. Its one of the closest ways to get the feeling of being in a real fight that you can get. Bruce Lee was one of the first pioneers to do full contact sparring with protective gear. Full contact sparring is necessary training.
Throwing wild punches all over the place is not “technique” even if the other guy lacks the “technique” to stop them most of the times.
Full contact like this teaches what works in real fights. Those that use more technique will be the ones that will get ahead. However, being in such pressure changes things drastically. It creates a whole different outlook on things. Most importantly it teaches courage. Courage is most of what fighting is.

Kevin,

the antigrappling stuff that sifu Emin has out there is good, and contains a lot of good ideas. The basic principles from which it all stems are often missed, and, while stated, are again, not glaringly obvious. The best section is from the IKF tape in which he goes through defense while on the ground- our flavor of open guard. That shows the pack of drills that sum up to being one live environment which will develop a useful skill set. Unfortunately, every situation is not gone through in this much detail. If you pick that tape up, and extrapolate methods from that sequence to the rest, said tape can be useful, especially if used in combination with some mat time and a good understanding of positional groundwork, and its biomechanics (Michael Jen’s BJJ tapes are quite good for some of that).

OJ,

sorry, for accuracy, I should have used other language, not a wanker. Masturbation is honest and natural, and the fantasy within it produces palpable results.

If you, or your students can do better, film it and post it, otherwise stop scoffing at people who’re doing the work.

Later,

Andrew

Andrew!..I’m not in cinema!..:wink: And I will keep on telling what I think about what I want. Period!
RedJunkRebel…I agre about the courage.

Matrix asked:

Are these clips that you’ve provided supposed to show how “chaotic, sloppy, violently intense mess” a fight can be, or is it an example of what you see as “training”?

**Theoreticians/nonfighters “train” with some idealized (fantasy) notion of what fighting should be – with that fantasy coming from hearsay or stories, from drills (chi sao), from movies, from demos, etc.; fighters start with what fighting really is, by actually fighting, and train to be able to better deal that “chaotic, sloppy, violently intense mess.” If you’re seriously training, then you should be able to step right into this and do well. After all, this is what you are training to be able to deal with, right?


old jog wrote:

Looking at these videos,this is what anybody agressive can do without any martial art training of any kind!
I was fighting better when I was twelve in the schoolyard.

**Actually, you have inadvertantly hit upon an important point – all fighting will “look” like your basic schoolyard brawl because that is what fighting really is: the basis for all fighting is right there, all we try to do is take those elements and make them more efficient, more functional, etc.

**As to the other part of your comment – it’s easy to write from behind a keyboard about how “bad” they are, how much better you could fight in the same situation, etc. and, it is a different matter altogether to actually step up and do it. I don’t mind the claim, just as I don’t mind the claims of any of the theoreticians; I just wish they would prove their claims. Let’s see them do the things they say they can do or should be done (“this is how fighting should be”) – and not in drills or demos but in this sort of environment.


RedJunk Rebel, AndrewS. – you’re both spot on in your comments, IMO.

When many people first see groundfighting, all they see is a mess, rolling madly about on the ground, because they don’t know what to look for (they don’t see the “technique” or the strategy in the rest of the confused mess; they have an uneducated eye). Same with using WCK’s approach in fighting: lots of people, even those in the “art” for a long time, will only see the mess and not what is going on within the mess because they’ve never developed an educated “eye” for WCK in application – that education comes from fighting. Andrew’s comments about the clips clearly shows he has an educated eye; old jong’s comments proves he doesn’t.

Originally posted by Vankuen
That was the ugliest, most non-technical fighting I’ve ever seen…it doesn’t disgrace wing chun, because they used so very little of it…but man it was cool to watch!!! :smiley:

Originally posted by RedJunkRebel
Although these guys don’t seem to be using very much Wing Chun…
That’s pretty much what WC looks like when two fighters are going head to head at 100%.

Originally posted by Matrix
I don’t think you need to be trained to take a senseless beating; we can all do that naturally. There is no training value in that, IMO. If someone “trains” like that, and this is what you guys mean by sparring, then I think you’re on the wrong track.
While I wouldn’t advocate that level of sparring every week, that is definitely something that anyone who is learning a system for fighting or self-defense should go through during their training.

Originally posted by old jong
Looking at these videos,this is what anybody agressive can do without any martial art training of any kind! I was fighting better when I was twelve in the schoolyard.
And I’d be willing to bet if you fought one of your fellow WC practitioners today at the level of contact and intent those guys were, you would look pretty mucy the same as they did.

Originally posted by old jong
Fighting with gloves and a big helmet is not what I call “pressure” or feeling what it is to get hit and hit back.
Not exactly a limited rules MMA fight with no protective gear- but a step towards it while at the same time being able to keep the risk of injury low. Try it sometime. There’s a lot of value in it- a lot more value than never taking those hard shots at all.

Originally posted by old jong
Throwing wild punches all over the place is not “technique” even if the other guy lacks the “technique” to stop them most of the times.Also,physical hability (?) without mental habilities,method and control is nothing in my book. This is just brawlling.Anybody can do that when ****ed off. :wink:
Those guys definitely showed their WC training. Anyone who has trained WC and also has experience in trying to use it in that type of environment will see that.

Finally there is some evidence of WC being used in a pressure testing situation and all the non-fighting theoreticians can do is belittle it. I will guarantee that if any you guys do the same type of full contact fighting, your WC is going to look pretty much like it did in that “kong sao” clip.

Actually it would probably be worse. Most of the non-fighting theoreticians would be lucky to make their WC as effective as those guys were able to.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]
old jog wrote:

Looking at these videos,this is what anybody agressive can do without any martial art training of any kind!
I was fighting better when I was twelve in the schoolyard.

**Actually, you have inadvertantly hit upon an important point – all fighting will “look” like your basic schoolyard brawl because that is what fighting really is: the basis for all fighting is right there, all we try to do is take those elements and make them more efficient, more functional, etc.

**As to the other part of your comment – it’s easy to write from behind a keyboard about how “bad” they are, how much better you could fight in the same situation, etc. and, it is a different matter altogether to actually step up and do it. I don’t mind the claim, just as I don’t mind the claims of any of the theoreticians; I just wish they would prove their claims. Let’s see them do the things they say they can do or should be done (“this is how fighting should be”) – and not in drills or demos but in this sort of environment.

old jong’s comments proves he doesn’t. [/B]

When I talk about my schoolyard fights I don’t mean I brawlled this way. I was taught the basics of boxing by one of my father’s friend who was an ex semi-pro fighter.I just had to jab and cross most of the times.The other guys were doing like in these clips!..
BTW, I’m not the one bragging on how “bad” I am on this forum.

But,there is a point I must agree in with you.It was easy to miss the technical side of grappling some times ago.It was new stuff to most then (not for me because I had practiced Judo already)but,you are insulting my intelligence when you talk about my lack of “educated eye” in Wing Chun All there is to see in these clips is frantic punching.

Anyway I just gave my opinion.Feel free to consider this as Wing Chun if you like it this way. End of discussion for me.

chisauking say:Whatever you make of that incident, you will agreee that it was anything but sporting.

yes but it show proof you go around say “I the best I fight anyone anytime anywhere” pretty soon you have to explain it your shoe fault you lose

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Okay…watched the first fight clip - the one that’s labelled Nov, 2004…and I pretty much have to agree with AndrewS, knifefighter and Terence.

True - virtually no wing chun technigue other than one or two front kicks - some chain punching (and a distinct inability to DEAL WITH chain punching)…

but that’s okay.

Because all the elbows and knees in the clinch…the grounding and pounding…one or two nice throws…and the aggressiveness when standing up and throwing the punches/kicks, etc…and the willingness of those who were getting pounded to hang in there…

definitely DOES show that these guys are on the right track.

And yeah…my beef was with the referee - not with the fighters.

And yeah…Andrew is right…these are basically VERY young guys…so if they stick with it (and if it becomes supervised such that many of them don’t have to quit due to injuries or intimidation)…then in time some of these guys will become excellent fighters whose technique WILL get better over time.

I took a look at the longer of the two clips and would say that it really makes the point of this thread… if you can’t escape when you get taken to the ground then you get pounded.

On the other hand there was a LOT of flailing going on there, which is what I would expect to see when somebody is over excited and the adreniline is flowing.

So, my suggestion for them would be to get some BJJ or Judo ground work going and do lots of centering exercises. Another exercise they should do is learning to elevate and lower their arousal levels. You can clearly see the guys who stay calm do better (blue trunks and the other shirtless guy in sweats). While most of the guys are overcome by the emotion of the moment.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**Theoreticians/nonfighters “train” with some idealized (fantasy) notion of what fighting should be – with that fantasy coming from hearsay or stories, from drills (chi sao), from movies, from demos, etc.; fighters start with what fighting really is, by actually fighting, and train to be able to better deal that “chaotic, sloppy, violently intense mess.” If you’re seriously training, then you should be able to step right into this and do well. After all, this is what you are training to be able to deal with, right?
Terence,
I have a lot of fighting experience, in the ring. I was a kick boxer for several years. Full contact, Knock Out, no head gear. You don’t have a clue about my experience, so be careful about drawing the wrong conclusions. When I look at these clips, I’m looking from the point of view of someone who has fought under those circumstances - many times, and quite frankly I see cr@p.

Just because I don’t agree with your approach, doesn’t mean I’m not serious. Unfortuantely, or may I should fortunately, I do not have to live up your standards.

Matrix sez:

Terence,
I have a lot of fighting experience, in the ring

Stereotyping folks on a discussion list hampers serious discussion.

The main point of my post on this thread was that wing chun, or any style of fighting, should focus on its forte… But some ground fighters reacted so defensly to what I’d said it’s as though I’m thretenting their livelyhood. Are you mixed (MMA) people so insecure about youslef that you need to justify your ground fighting?

Say you had studied German for the past 5-years, would you elect to take an examination in Chinese? No – you would take the subject that you are strongest in, which would be German. The same holds true for wing chun disciples. If you were to engage combat, you would choose to fight standing, using wing chun techniques, becuase that’s what you have been training to do for many years.

Regardless of what you mixed people may think (basically I couldn’t care two faaks), there are considerable disadvantages to fighting on the ground for a wing chun fighter. For example, the reduction of your repetoire of techniques, the inability to apply damaging punches, the lost of your powerful kicks and, to me, the most important aspect of all, that of mobility. Mobility is extremely important becuase it’s one of the main aspect that works the most effective against an opponent that’s stronger and bigger than you. With mobilty, we don’t have to face the force of a bigger and stronger opponent head on (we have already discussed this aspect in another thread: fighting on the blind side). That’s why I said you should get back up as quickly as possible if you are down – so that your most important attributes and fighting tools are available to you. With standing, you need not make contact with your opponent and thereby negating any form of resistance. Any techniques that is meet with resistance, like trying to force your opponent’s arm into a certain position, is very much strentgh reliant.

Also, there is clearly one situation in which ground fighting is seriously comprimised. That of multiple attackers. This aspect has always been avoided or dismissed by the Gracies… because they have no real answer to it. They say things like: it’s impossible to beat multiple skilled fighters anyway. But the truth is, in real life we do get attacked by multiple assilants, and they aren’t ALL skilled fighters. Most cases it’s just bums with little skill, but the point is, it IS possible to defend oneself against multiple attackers standing up, even though they may be bums, but it IS impossible to defend yourself from this kind of attack on the ground.

Not only that.. 99% of all fights start standing up, so for the ground fighter you need an extra step to take us down on the ground first. And, as most real world fighters know, that, my friend, is the hardest part of the fight – unless you are talking about the receipiant of the bombarding kicks and punches!

In an ideal world we would probably learn wing chun for stand up fighting, and BJJ or Pakistani JJ for ground work. But in real life this isn’t always easy, and there are others issues to contend with. For example, do we have the time or money to learn a completely different style? Or, more importantly, is there any conflicting principles \ issues between the two different styles?