This was my point!..We never can be sure at 100% of anything in a real fight! Nothing is 100% foolproof.
This doesn’t take anything away from BJJ or ground fighting effectiveness in competitions or against a “non animalistic” opponent in a bar or something but IMO it is foolish to assume being invincible.Whatever the style practiced. IMO,the more Coc…ky you are,the more prone you are to be badly hurted.
My post was not intended to put down anything but to bring some of my own experience in the balance.
However, you so conveniately forgot to mention that WC was surprised attacked, he was wearing Chinese slippers on a wooden floor (for those who may laugh at this point, I use to train in a wing chun club in London’s Chinatown which had a wooden floor, and it was very difficult to not slide about because there was absolutely friction at all – try it yourself), WC was way past his physical prime, the man that attacked him was in his physical prime, had prepared for the fight well over 1-year in advance and, most important of all, had the element of surprise and a totally prepared frame of mind.
I though that was the point. Anyone can get taken down, you can’t control all circumstances.
He was 46, and, since I’m about to turn 50, I dispute the notion that he would have been “well past his physical prime”. The facts and opinions regarding this incident are well known and there was no point me repeating them. William Cheung publically stated that he was ready for challenges any time anywhere, though I don’t think he was considering what happened as a “challenge match” (neither do I).
I HAVE tried the Kung Fu shoes thing. IMO they are the most ridiculous footwear ever invented for fighting - an inside joke on Gwailos by Asian Sifus, IMO.
Whatever you make of that incident, you will agreee that it was anything but sporting.
Couldn’t agree more. You’re the one demanding “realism”, and saying that those who cross train somehow don’t get it. “Reality fighting” has nothing to do with sport or fairness.
When the reality truck hit, the “famous Sifu” fell over and couldn’t get up.
Come on, guys. I just recently turned 54 - and though I’m still in very good shape - I’m definitely NOT what I was when I was 24.
Which was about how old Boztepe was (possibly even younger) in September, 1986.
William Cheung was about to turn 46 at that time (October 10th).
He was still in excellent overall condition - but no longer in his “prime” years. (And I suspect that by then he was no longer keeping his cardio up like he did in his earlier years…a big factor in a real confrontation with a skilled opponent who’s bigger and 20+ years younger).
And there was also the element of panic - which I’m sure was a big part of the equation - he was a Chinese guy in his gung fu slippers on a parquet floor in a white country he’d never been to before…and finds himself surrounded and the leader of the pack charges him! (He once remarked that he threw the headlock on Boztepe in the hopes of just neutralizing him into a stalemate - because he was afraid to go all out - considering exactly where he was…on German soil). Perhaps there was some truth to that.
Now if you want to say he “should” have been ready for anything - given his statements previously..otherwise don’t make such statements…okay…I can buy that.
But it wasn’t the case…and on any given day…ANYBODY… can be beaten.
Originally posted by old jong I can tell you and specially knifefighter that doing a proper side control would only result in having half of your face bitten off!..The mount usually provides the “client” for a nice spitting target!..(most of the times accompagnied with a good dose of hepatithis “B” viruses or worse!)
OJ, you are not fighting, but controlling patients. In your circumstances, if you end up on the ground with a patient, I don’t believe you want side control or, even, necessarily, the mount.
But you are the one experienced in controlling the patients if and when you end up on the ground with them. I’d like to hear how you currently control them once you end up on the ground without getting bitten or spit upon.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]But it wasn’t the case…and on any given day…ANYBODY… can be beaten.
That’s the biggest moral of the story, imo. [/B]
Not in my mind it isn’t. For me, the moral of the story was- WHERE THE HECK WAS THE FRIGGIN’ WING CHUN BY EITHER PERSON?
These were supposedly two of the best WC practitioners in the world and NEITHER of them showed any WC technique.
Knifefighter is correct. We see very little fighting skill “demonstrated” in that fight, and that’s why it tarnishes WCK’s reputation. And that’s not a knock on either Chueng or Boztepe personally – you could replace either with just about any other “master” in WCK and it would be the same. There are important lessons that fight can teach us WCK practitioners, if we let it (by removing our “classical” blinders and leaving all the BS myths behind). The Boztepe-Cheung fight was a fight – that’s how genuine fights are going to “look” (unless they are sucker punch affairs or one participant greatly outmatches the other). Not like chi sao, not like san sao, not like “touching hands” or other “mock fights”, not like the movies, not like your fantasies (Leung Jan, Shaolin monks). It’s going to be a chaotic, sloppy, violently intense mess characterized by sheer aggression and resistance where anything can happen (you may very well end up on the ground, for example). Are you prepared to deal with that sort of environment? Is this what you are training for? If not, you’re wasting your time.
Originally posted by Knifefighter
[B]OJ, you are not fighting, but controlling patients. In your circumstances, if you end up on the ground with a patient, I don’t believe you want side control or, even, necessarily, the mount.
But you are the one experienced in controlling the patients if and when you end up on the ground with them. I’d like to hear how you currently control them once you end up on the ground without getting bitten or spit upon. [/B]
No,I am not really fighting but sometimes he is for sure!..There are no big secrets in controlling agressive patients: you don’t want to hurt them so you try to imbalance them and put them against a wall with a kind of back clinch called the "basket " (head tucked in etc,you know the game!) But sometimes it is not that easy and I might use some basic judo and aikido moves to bring him (not slam!) to the ground and maintain him with a controled wristlock ( I don’t want to hurt him!) on his belly. I then wait for help to finish the intervention.But sometimes,he is not even feeling the pain from the lock and won’t follow the move (too strong,adrenaline etc…)so,I have to simply use lots of muscle,leverage,speed and everything I got to bring him down.I am then forced to use a “knee on back” position to hold him on the ground,doing my best to control his arms behind his back and sometimes his head because they sometimes have a tendency to bang their own head on the floor. I don’t want to be in close body contact in order to be able to get on my feet quickly if the situation gets out of hands.
I know guys who lost their job because they panicked and started to punch patients!..So,it is a situation where you must “win” but “not too much” if you get the idea!
BTW,it is not always like that .We have quiet days also!
I often used Wing Chun’s defensive moves to deflect strikes or attempted grabs from patients.They provide for safe entry for controling techniques.
OJ-
Nice real world examples and descriptions of what you have to deal with. IMO, the knee ride is the ideal postion to deal with this type of control situation when on the ground.
Have you even had a patient take YOU down and end up in the top position?
Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]Knifefighter is correct. …<snip>… It’s going to be a chaotic, sloppy, violently intense mess characterized by sheer aggression and resistance where anything can happen (you may very well end up on the ground, for example). Are you prepared to deal with that sort of environment? Is this what you are training for? If not, you’re wasting your time.
Terence,
Are these clips that you’ve provided supposed to show how “chaotic, sloppy, violently intense mess” a fight can be, or is it an example of what you see as “training”?
Originally posted by Knifefighter
[B]OJ-
Nice real world examples and descriptions of what you have to deal with. IMO, the knee ride is the ideal postion to deal with this type of control situation when on the ground.
Have you even had a patient take YOU down and end up in the top position? [/B]
I tripped once and fell with the patient over me but I was in his back and I managed to hold him and get up on top.That time help was very fast and the situation was quickly resolved.
Four years to go and I retire!..
Originally posted by Matrix Terence,
Are these clips that you’ve provided supposed to show how “chaotic, sloppy, violently intense mess” a fight can be, or is it an example of what you see as “training”?
I’m not Terence and I only downloaded the smaller “kong sao” clip, but from my standpoint, the answer is that it (the kong sao clip) is an example of both how chaotic and sloppy a fight can be as well as how part of effective training should be done.
Those guys are on the right track. That’s the kind of contact that should be going on at sihing’s level 10 “real world” grading.
That was the ugliest, most non-technical fighting I’ve ever seen…it doesn’t disgrace wing chun, because they used so very little of it…but man it was cool to watch!!!
Feel free to develop more on the idea.