Wing Chun & Anti Grappling

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Listen to yourself

The stand up fighting against ground fighting debate has been done to death, so I’m not bringing it up again. My point was, why don’t we, as wing chun fighters, focus on what we do best: stand up fighting? If you are a skilled wing chun fighter, being taken to the ground is few and far between, but should you get taken to the ground, your priority should be to get back up to the environment that you fight best in and that’s advantages to your style of fighting. You should focus on the aspects which would enable you to get back on your feet, and nothing more. Practice on getting to your feet as quick as possible when you are down. Experiment with rolling and springing up from the ground from a safe angle. If the opponent is very close or in the mount position, you will have to create space or to back him off before you can get up. Practice kicking from the ground; drill scratching, spitting, clawing, biting, finger thrusting, pulling, rolling and all close-quarter hitting techniques. The objective is to act quickly and powerfully, and get up as soon as you have the chance. These are very direct, simple and effective techniques, but it works. Why try to fight in a million different ways when one will do the job just fine?

t_niehoff said we should listen to people with experience, but experience is a very subjective thing. For example, many people into ground fighting will tell you that the methods and techniques that I’d recommended above doesn’t work, and that the chances defending ourselves succesfully from mulitple assilants are slim. Well, my experiance will be different to those people. My real life, as opposed to sport, fighting milage is quite high because I run two pubs (anyone can tell you, and it can be substantiated by police statistics, that due to the nature of the business, more trouble and fights start in a pub than anywhere else), and it’s quite often that I get to try techniques out. Scratching a deep wound into someone’s face does create space; finger jabbing their eyes or taking a chunk out from their calve muscle does cause them to back off. Would those techniques work on a champion BJJ practitioner? I don’t know, and since all those techniques are not incorperated and tested for real in gournd fighting shcools, I don’t think they would know either. In the final analysis, any bouncer with genuine mileage in the game will tell you that the last place you want to be when the shiit hits the fan is on the ground, especially when multiple attackers are concerned, but this goes against the grain of thinking for some on this forum, so whose experience do we listen to?

Keep it effective, keep it simple. Michael Yan Choi

42

Re: Listen to yourself

Originally posted by chisauking
If you are a skilled wing chun fighter, being taken to the ground is few and far between, but should you get taken to the ground, your priority should be to get back up to the environment that you fight best in and that’s advantages to your style of fighting. You should focus on the aspects which would enable you to get back on your feet, and nothing more. Practice on getting to your feet as quick as possible when you are down. Experiment with rolling and springing up from the ground from a safe angle. If the opponent is very close or in the mount position, you will have to create space or to back him off before you can get up. Practice kicking from the ground; drill scratching, spitting, clawing, biting, finger thrusting, pulling, rolling and all close-quarter hitting techniques. The objective is to act quickly and powerfully, and get up as soon as you have the chance. These are very direct, simple and effective techniques, but it works.
I’ll agree with this… except for the nothing more. Never hurts to learn other stuff to help make you more rounded.

Originally posted by chisauking
For example, many people into ground fighting will tell you that the methods and techniques that I’d recommended above doesn’t work,
Not that they don’t work… just that they are not necessarily fight enders. Sometimes they just enrage the opponent.

Originally posted by chisauking
My real life, as opposed to sport, fighting milage is quite high because I run two pubs (anyone can tell you, and it can be substantiated by police statistics, that due to the nature of the business, more trouble and fights start in a pub than anywhere else), and it’s quite often that I get to try techniques out. Scratching a deep wound into someone’s face does create space; finger jabbing their eyes or taking a chunk out from their calve muscle does cause them to back off.
If I was a pub owner, I’d be even more interested in learning grappling and ground control techniques. I would think if you own a pub, you’d want to keep the damage to your customers as low as possible rather than having to bite them, eye gouge them, or rip your fingernails through their skin.

43

If you are a skilled wing chun fighter, being taken to the ground is few and far between, but should you get taken to the ground, your priority should be to get back up to the environment that you fight best in and that’s advantages to your style of fighting.

Counterexample: Cologne 1986. A skiiled WC fighter got taken down and could do … basically nothing.

No argument other than that, except that the quickest, most efficient, and effective way out from under is through sound technical pin escapes and reversals, not eye gouges, bites and groin squeezes.

Rickson (I think) Gracie: “He who controls, bites”.

One of the world’s greatest ever grapplers, the eponymous Kimura, had the nickname “groin squeezer”.

As Knifefighter said, dirty techniques aren’t the thermonuclear option you seem to think they are. They’re as effective in a standup fight as they are in a ground fight; if you can’t handle yourself without dirty techniques, odds are you won’t be able to handle yourself with them. You may just encourage the guy who took you down to REALLY hurt you this time.

If that’s the way you deal with obnoxious customers, I’m glad I live elsewhere and are unlikely to ever enter one of your businesses. I’m well behaved, even reserved, while I’m out, but watching people, even a$$holes, get gouged, bitten and maimed ain’t my idea of a fun night out.

44

Gotta put my two cents in here.

First of all - that WAS a very good post, chisauking…

And I agree with Dale that everything you wrote made sense execept for the “nothing more”.

But the middle ground is the answer to all this.

Grappling…AND…ripping (dirty tactics)…

have to go together like a fist and a glove, because they complement each other. And while I agree with you that on the floor is the last place I want to be in a pub fight (where his friends could be breaking a bottle over my head at the very moment that I have him pinned down and going for a choke)…and I also agree that in today’s MMA events/groundfight schools where RIPS are NOT being used there is no sure way of knowing what pure grappling/striking will work and what won’t against a good ripper…

all this said…

Knowing the basics of grappling…and grappling escapes…along with the striking and ripping COVERS A LOT MORE BASES than leaving any part of that out.

When I conduct my wrestling classes in my school - we ALWAYS include ripping (though doing that in something of a controlled fashion without any real injuries occurring is an art in itself)…we always include the rips along with the basic wrestling knowledge AND the striking, traps, blocks, etc. done in Wing Chun.

I feel it’s more complete and more reality fight training this way.

Good discussion, guys.

45

Another weak excuse

Quote: Counterexample: Cologne 1986. A skiiled WC fighter got taken down and could do … basically nothing.

Ah, the ultimate excuse for ground fighting… The old Willy Cheung fiasco. The if the ultimate street fighter got taken down, then it proves ground fighting must be effective argument…

However, you so conveniately forgot to mention that WC was surprised attacked, he was wearing Chinese slippers on a wooden floor (for those who may laugh at this point, I use to train in a wing chun club in London’s Chinatown which had a wooden floor, and it was very difficult to not slide about because there was absolutely friction at all – try it yourself), WC was way past his physical prime, the man that attacked him was in his physical prime, had prepared for the fight well over 1-year in advance and, most important of all, had the element of surprise and a totally prepared frame of mind.

Whatever you make of that incident, you will agreee that it was anything but sporting.

It’s true that if you had the choice, control is better than damage, but when your life is on the line, rules and pleasantries go out the window. The people who has experienced real world violence will know what I’m talking about. Those that confine their skills to the realms of the club can say whatever they like.

46

On the money. Good post chisauking.

FWIW- the Cologne affair and the follow up next generation affair
has very little ( actually zilch)to do with lots of people’s wing chun.

47

chisauking wrote:

t_niehoff said we should listen to people with experience, but experience is a very subjective thing.

**Yes, it is. One very important factor is, however, whether your experience is against skilled practitioners (what Ernie, Andrew, and KF have in common; thus why their opinions are consistent). For example, I know a lot of fighters that think WCK is a joke because they’ve seen a lot of WCK. And I point out the same thing to them: don’t base your opinions on performance of the unskilled.

For example, many people into ground fighting will tell you that the methods and techniques that I’d recommended above doesn’t work, and that the chances defending ourselves succesfully from mulitple assilants are slim. Well, my experiance will be different to those people. My real life, as opposed to sport, fighting milage is quite high because I run two pubs (anyone can tell you, and it can be substantiated by police statistics, that due to the nature of the business, more trouble and fights start in a pub than anywhere else), and it’s quite often that I get to try techniques out. Scratching a deep wound into someone’s face does create space; finger jabbing their eyes or taking a chunk out from their calve muscle does cause them to back off. Would those techniques work on a champion BJJ practitioner?

**Your question has at its base several assumptions – that you could pull off the same “technique” against a skilled groundfighter as you could against some scrub and that it would have the same result if you did. If you deal with skilled fighters you’ll find that both assumptions are false. Fighting some bloke in the pub isn’t the same as fighting a skilled fighter – not by a very long shot. You can experience that for yourself if you start mixing it up against skilled fighters.

I don’t know, and since all those techniques are not incorperated and tested for real in gournd fighting shcools, I don’t think they would know either.

**They have been “tested.” The Gracies will tell you: they’ve fought on the “street” and in actual no rules fights (where you can bite, etc.). In fact, they expect these sorts of reactions from poor fighters. For example, when Rickson teaches the bent armlock he’ll say “now is when he may try to rake your face so turn your head when you do this”. Moreoever, if one hasn’t trained in groundfighting, many of these foul tactics will just further expose you (you reach to poke his eyes and give him your arm for the armbar).

In the final analysis, any bouncer with genuine mileage in the game will tell you that the last place you want to be when the shiit hits the fan is on the ground, especially when multiple attackers are concerned, but this goes against the grain of thinking for some on this forum, so whose experience do we listen to?

**Going to the ground in a fight can come about either involuntarily (slip, knockdown, etc.) or voluntarily. Regardless of how we get there, the better our skill in that situation the better our chances. As far as choosing to go there, that is a tactical decision and the situation always dictates the tactics. Rickson isn’t going to choose to go to the ground in a bar fight with multiple opponents either. He knows when to use that tactic and when not to. There is no one tactic that is best or works in all situations.

48

I think the point of anerlich’s post was missed.

It’s not that Cheung got taken down. It’s that ONCE HE WAS THERE, he could do…basically nothing.

That’s the issue at hand.

If getting taken to the ground and being controlled by a person in a dominant position is the worst case scenario for a WC fighter, then the Cologne incident demonstrates quite clearly that the worst case scenario can happen.

In this case, a Wing Chun expert’s skills amounted to little because they were overcome by variables:

  1. Environment (slippery floor)
  2. Attribute differential (weight, strength, speed, youth)
  3. Surprise

anerlich’s argument was not a knock on Cheung or WC. It was reasoning by analogy. If the “unknowns” can overcome skill and place the expert in a position where his personal toolset was effectively nullified - a worst case scenario. Consequently, it makes sense to at least be familiar with what is required in one of these worst case scenarios. Having a tool does not mean knowing how to use it in every situation. A chef’s knife is a multi-purpose tool - but just because you know the best way to dice an onion doesn’t mean you know the best way to use that knife to peel an apple.

As Joy pointed out, some people DO practice to peel the apple too.

49

what happens if you slip over a banana peel in a fight or fighting on a very slippery surface ?this is why groundfighting skills are relevant to streetfighting.

50

Terence wrote:

“Your question has at its base several assumptions – that you could pull off the same “technique” against a skilled groundfighter as you could against some scrub and that it would have the same result if you did. If you deal with skilled fighters you’ll find that both assumptions are false. Fighting some bloke in the pub isn’t the same as fighting a skilled fighter – not by a very long shot.”

Let me tell you guys what the real question is here…

JUST HOW PREPARED DO YOU WANT TO BE?

In terms of chisauking’s life and his work circumstances - we can assume that he feels that what he’s learned is enough for him. He’s not training to go into some organized competition where he might face an expert ground-grappler.

For other people…their goals may be different.

As long as hard, competitive, training is going on wherein one is sparring/fighting on a regular basis against skilled resisting opponents/partners…and your testing out whatever system your doing against moves from other systems (like what Andrew Nerlich said, for example, about learning good takedowns so you can work against a GOOD takedown attempt)…

then at least YOU’RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK - as regards reality fight training.

And furthermore,you don’t necessarily have to become an “expert” grappler in order to become very competitive against an expert grappler - look at how far Mirko Cro Cop has come in the Pride Fighting events…basically a kickboxer/Thai boxer with an excellent sprawl defense against takedowns…with very limited skills when actually on the ground.

True…lack of ground skills was finally his undoing (after pounding and bloodying his opponent for most of the match with punches and kicks)…when he fought Noguiera…and finally he missed a sprawl and was taken down and submitted…

but Cro Cop is an excellent figher who really IS hard to takedown for most of the “expert” grappler-types he’s fought.

So what’s the moral of the story?

It’s all going to depend on just HOW PREPARED you want to be.

51

Re: Another weak excuse

Originally posted by chisauking
However, you so conveniately forgot to mention that WC was surprised attacked, he was wearing Chinese slippers on a wooden floor (for those who may laugh at this point, I use to train in a wing chun club in London’s Chinatown which had a wooden floor, and it was very difficult to not slide about because there was absolutely friction at all – try it yourself), WC was way past his physical prime, the man that attacked him was in his physical prime, had prepared for the fight well over 1-year in advance and, most important of all, had the element of surprise and a totally prepared frame of mind.
So, by this reasoning, WC can only be used when you are in your prime, are completely prepared, and the environment is in your favor.

Originally posted by chisauking
Whatever you make of that incident, you will agreee that it was anything but sporting.
Since WC is not about sport, but all about self-defense and real fighting, that shouldn’t matter, should it?

52

Re: Cologne 1986

Here is my main problem with everyone who makes excuses for why that fiasco didn’t really mean anything about “real” WC.

I don’t know about you, but if I was one of the head honchos of a martial arts organization and I had a fight that was recorded and made me look really bad, I would want to do something to remedy that situation. Assuming I really had some skills and felt that that what happened was just a “bad day” that was not representative of my real skills, I would immediately be on path of getting several additional fights recorded that showed my real skills in their true light.

Of course, if I was unsure about my system and my ability to be able to demonstrate that I could really use it, then I would make sure that never happened.

53

Victor wrote:

In terms of chisauking’s life and his work circumstances - we can assume that he feels that what he’s learned is enough for him. He’s not training to go into some organized competition where he might face an expert ground-grappler.

For other people…their goals may be different.

**That sounds logical and many people fall into that trap, but it misses an important consideration IME. Lots of things “work” against scrubs but are in fact actually poor technique/habits/etc. (like reaching for punches in stand-up, for example) By continuing to do those things in training, a person is only reinforcing poor fighting habits. So, if they do want to develop good, solid skills, they have even more difficulty than if they hadn’t trained at all (because now they’ve ingrained a mistake). Whereas, if they trained good, solid habits from the get go, they’d find that these would work against the scrubs while at the same time providing a foundation for higher level skill development.

As long as hard, competitive, training is going on wherein one is sparring/fighting on a regular basis against skilled resisting opponents/partners…and your testing out whatever system your doing against moves from other systems (like what Andrew Nerlich said, for example, about learning good takedowns so you can work against a GOOD takedown attempt)…

then at least YOU’RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK - as regards reality fight training.

**One certainly needs that training but equally important IME is the quality of fighters one is facing (training against). You can’t become significantly skilled without dealing regularly with significantly skilled folks.

54

20 years ago I started to add Chin na, Judo and Aikido to my skill set because I noticed that in real fights some people wont stay down with just strikes (clean or dirty). From my experience I would say that learning the basics of throws, submissions, chokes, escapes, bars, sprawl etc.. should be required in any stand up MA that goes beyond the ring.

It’s not like it takes much time to learn the basics.

edit: Oh, and Nick cool topic & post btw.

55

“Of course, if I was unsure about my system and my ability to be able to demonstrate that I could really use it, then I would make sure that never happened.” (KF)

This time your trolling is going to fall on deaf ears.

The event in Germany (and subsequent events concerning it) have been worked/discussed/debated/screamed about/fought over…enough in the ensuing years.

Time to move on.

56

“One certainly needs that training but equally important IME is the quality of fighters one is facing (training against). You can’t become significantly skilled without dealing regularly with significantly skilled folks.” (Terence)

Of course.

57

Merryprankster sez:

It’s not that Cheung got taken down. It’s that ONCE HE WAS THERE, he could do…basically nothing.

That’s the issue at hand.

True . MP.
That is an issue. The sloppy rolling around. Where was the wing chun?

The problem is that lots of things have to be discussed with restraint because of inter lineage courtesies.A bit of a CMA tradition.And- not a bad one.

The wing chun that some lines do-- evn the ABCs are different from Cheung’s.

KF- head honcho? Cheung is head honcho only of his own
self created TWC org.

58

From my own experiences

I agree that we all should have some basic grappling experience.(I train in ground Judo “Ne Wasa” periodicaly)I am no champion but now,I can see the positions coming and counter may things in a more intuitive manner.

I also agree with Ernie’s comments about “dirty tactics” I have some very serious and real experiences in that field. I had,and still have to grapple insane patients for 26 years now!..It is part of my job. I can tell you and specially knifefighter that doing a proper side control would only result in having half of your face bitten off!..The mount usually provides the “client” for a nice spitting target!..(most of the times accompagnied with a good dose of hepatithis “B” viruses or worse!) I have also seen a security agent have his head pulled down by a very strong mounted patient only to be headbutted repeatly on the mouth.He lost many teeth,was knocked out and was never the same after!.. There are no ways you can ensure good control positioning and be safe from some serious scratching,biting ,spitting in the eyes,ear ripping or hair pulling,all performed with an animal like rage.Don’t forget that some punks out there train their “fighters heart” by pulling the eyes out of living birds with their bare fingers!..

So,even if these things are not fight stoppers in some’s mind,they are not things to be taken lightly ,IMO!..Who,in some UFC have been bitten to the bone recently?..

59

“The problem is that lots of things have to be discussed with restraint because of inter lineage courtesies. A bit of a CMA tradition.” (Joy)

If that’s the case Joy then practice what you preach…he is “A” wing chun honcho…which is the way it was described in the original post. And he was considered that by MANY people in the wing chun world long before he went public with TWC…or have you forgotten?

And as for this…

“That is an issue. The sloppy rolling around. Where was the wing chun?”

Are you trying to say, Joy…that your system of wing chun has a better ground game when on the floor?

I doubt that you are saying that. I doubt that highly.

The Good, The Bad, & the Ugly…remember?

60

That is an issue. The sloppy rolling around. Where was the wing chun?

No Joy, that’s THE issue, not just AN issue.

As I pointed out in my previous post, however, you were quite correct in limiting qualifying the issue with a “some.” I say this as an adherence to reason, not as an advocate of one view of WC or another. I must admit the possbility, based on the limited evidence, that the problem was unique or limited in scope and not universal.

However, this does not negate the illustrative example itself - that a combination of things can occur which neutralize or at the very least mitigate specific skill sets as an advantage. Thus, it is useful to understand at least the basics of either other skill sets or the specifics of how your prefered skill set might apply to a ‘worst-case’ inherently disadvantageous for you situation. I would personally argue that the latter course would reinvent the wheel to a large extent, but that is something of a separate issue.

Old Jong, your post does nothing at all to back up or refute anybody’s point. It only highlights the unpredictability and danger of personal combat. Doing that turns this into an endless series of “what if’s.” We can all find a billion counter possibilities. Faced with limited training time, we must make choices and do the best we can.