Wing Chun and fighting-How to do it?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
81

Terence wrote:
**Tell me what part of this don’t you understand – we’re discussing training methods for becoming a skilled fighter. Folks that have proven themselves skilled fighters, like boxers, BJJ, MMAist, muay thai, etc. all train with the same model. That model exists whether I can fight or not. You can’t dispute those results. Now, if you think that you or someone else has found a different model that produces skilled fighters, then great – where are the results? I don’t need to step up and fight to prove that the model that produced Rickson, Tyson, etc. works. I could be a a quadraplegic and the evidence that this model produces skilled fighters would still exist.

—Sounds like more rationalization to me. Its simple. You keep talking about how your results are better than anyone elses. You’ve been asked to provide one simple measure that might support that claim. What’s wrong with that? KPM

But if you, for whatever reason, want to see how well I can fight, visit St. Louis – I’ll be more than happy to mix it up with you.
So, Keith, when are you going to visit?

—So now you are using the forum to set up challenge fights? It so happens that I am not as free to travel as others might be. Nor am I the aggressive “fighter” that you are. KPM

**You know, I feel exactly the same way! I’m tired of the same-old nonfighter/theoretician perspective.

—As I said to Victor, EVERYONE is a theoretician when it comes to a discussion board because all we can do is DISCUSS! Everything you are saying is just theory here as well, unless you provide evidence to back it up. KPM

Keith

82

Terence wrote:
**How does one know what the “appropriate situation” is? Someone tell you? Or do you find that for yourself by trying to use whatever you have? Moreoever, fighting is a matter of using what we have at the moment. If someone is attacked but only has a limited number of “techniques” (because they are a beginner, for example) what do they do? They make do. You can’t ask the attacker to come back after you’ve “completed the system.” So a trainee with just the jik chung choi will use that tool to do every job imaginable. If something happens in fighting where that tool won’t work, they’ll improvise (perhaps poorly). But that will give them insight into the limitations they have, what they need, why they need it, etc.
In BJJ, for example, you don’t wait until you learn “the entire system” to begin rolling, you begin right away. Sure you have limited things you can do, but that lets you focus on doing them, setting them up, etc. And you’re a better groundfighter with those few things than you were before you had them. You’ll have lots of holes in your groundfighting, make a lot of mistakes, etc. but that’s part of the learning process.

We do have “sparring drills” where we isolate certain things to focus on them, if that’s what you mean. But typically a trainee will use whatever they have at the moment.

Let me ask you a question, how do you think someone can learn to deal with a genuine attack if they never deal with a genuine attack? And in fighting, no one does single attacks – so we have to learn to deal with the whole enchilada. In fighting practice, we wear protective gear. And, we all go into it with the realization that we are there to learn, to develop, not to just pound on the other guy. And the trainer is always there to intercede. Also, it is by getting into this environment that the trainee develops the conditioning to not be injured. You see, in “real fights” everyone and anyone is going to be hit. There is only one way to learn how to deal with that.

—There! Now was that so hard? :slight_smile: That post actually had some content to contribute to the discussion and give us a little more insight into how you train. That’s all Hunt was asking for from the beginning…something more than just the same old “fight!fight!fight! or your Wing Chun is worthless!” That was a good post, it acutally had some balance. Now I would still like another question answered while you are in the sharing mood. You have stated that a person’s own experience in sparring should be the guide for their WCK, and not traditional teaching. So what things have you changed about your WCK based upon your “fighting” experience? I am not trying to be facetious or argumentative. I would truly like to know what insights you have gained and how you have changed your Wing Chun from the “traditional” way it is done based upon those insights. Again, this was the original intent of this thread.

Keith

83

Ernie wrote:
And I was just being honest, things like the shapes are just static moments and reference points, they give the feeling of proper alignment and connection for things like power release absorbing deflecting and so on
Once you have the [feeling] of these static postures [forms] and the basic idea for there usage [a lan sau is done line this blah blah] you must learn to apply and find the timing.

—Ah! But this is different than saying that your insights gained in sparring/fighting are going to alter or change the traditional WCK that you learned. It sounds to me like you are saying that you are learning to apply what you have learned in a free-flowing situation and make it work. KPM

But this is all just part of the training system, you are still in the bubble if you seek the perfect bong sau [or any hand or posture] in a chi sau environment, then in theory your are still chasing hands, your chasing a mental image of what you think things should look like, instead of relating to the problem and person in front of you.

—I agree totally. But again, it sounds like you are not purposefully changing what you have learned based on fighting/sparring experience and then practicing it that way from that point onward. You are simply learning how things are applied effectively. KPM

This is more of a robotic way of trying to fight! If your not relating your not being natural your trying to [do the form] on some one, and it won’t work right, you will be crashing and bumping or getting jammed up

—True. And that is the whole purpose of Chi Sau…to learn to flow and not to be “robotic.” Same applies to sparring/fighting. KPM

But I know people love security blankets and there is nothing wrong with staying with in the confines of what makes you feel safe and confident

—I don’t think it is a “security blanket.” Many would see everything you’ve said above as applying to quality Chi Sau as well. In the confines of Chi Sau or sparring you don’t think about how the technique is executed, you just do it. You learn how it works in application. But that is not the same thing as saying that you are changing the way the techniques are executed when doing solo drills, forms, or other practice. Traditional teaching still applies, and is not thrown out as has been suggested elsewhere. KPM

Keith

84

KPM wrote:

—Sounds like more rationalization to me. Its simple. You keep talking about how your results are better than anyone elses. You’ve been asked to provide one simple measure that might support that claim. What’s wrong with that? KPM

**I’m not saying anything about my results being better than anyone else’s – I’m saying that if we look at the evidence, look to any proven skilled fighter, and then look at how they have become skilled, we’ll see they all followed the same training model. Many people training today in karate, aikido, TCMAs, etc. don’t follow that model. And we don’t see anyone from that group developing significant demonstrable fighting skills. The evidence doesn’t rest on my shoulders.

But if you, for whatever reason, want to see how well I can fight, visit St. Louis – I’ll be more than happy to mix it up with you.
So, Keith, when are you going to visit?

—So now you are using the forum to set up challenge fights? It so happens that I am not as free to travel as others might be. Nor am I the aggressive “fighter” that you are. KPM

**You’re asking for a “clip” of me – to do what? You can’t see from a clip whether I have fightign skill or not; there is only one way to see if I have skill, and what level of skill, and that is in person. So if you, for whatever reason, think the rataionale for my POV rests somehow on my personal skill level, then you’ll need to come and see for yourself what I can or cannot do.

**You know, I feel exactly the same way! I’m tired of the same-old nonfighter/theoretician perspective.

—As I said to Victor, EVERYONE is a theoretician when it comes to a discussion board because all we can do is DISCUSS! Everything you are saying is just theory here as well, unless you provide evidence to back it up. KPM

**Not everyone is a theoretician. Fighters (swimmers) have a certain perspective, and theoreticians (dryland swimmers) have a different perspective. It goes all the way down to how they think about martial arts. Do fighters have/use theory? Sure, but not in the same way theoreticians do.

85

KPM wrote:

—There! Now was that so hard? :slight_smile: That post actually had some content to contribute to the discussion and give us a little more insight into how you train. That’s all Hunt was asking for from the beginning…something more than just the same old “fight!fight!fight! or your Wing Chun is worthless!” That was a good post, it acutally had some balance.

Well, thanks. And I’m sorry to drone on about “fight, fight” but you should understand that when folks that are practicing dry-land swimming ask questions about swimming, that more often than not, their questions would be answered or at least better-focused if they simply got into the pool (hence my answer: swim, swim). So many things would become clear. They’d also see that many of their opinions about are founded on mistaken assumptions (the theory of dry-land swimming).

—Now I would still like another question answered while you are in the sharing mood. You have stated that a person’s own experience in sparring should be the guide for their WCK, and not traditional teaching.

The traditional teachings are the finger pointing to the moon. They are a guide and nothing more.

—So what things have you changed about your WCK based upon your “fighting” experience? I am not trying to be facetious or argumentative. I would truly like to know what insights you have gained and how you have changed your Wing Chun from the “traditional” way it is done based upon those insights. Again, this was the original intent of this thread.

To be honest, I don’t even think about it in that way. The number one thing that has changed is in how I train and teach WCK. That has changed my perspective.

86

KPM wrote:

—Ah! But this is different than saying that your insights gained in sparring/fighting are going to alter or change the traditional WCK that you learned. It sounds to me like you are saying that you are learning to apply what you have learned in a free-flowing situation and make it work. KPM

That’s the same thing.

—I agree totally. But again, it sounds like you are not purposefully changing what you have learned based on fighting/sparring experience and then practicing it that way from that point onward. You are simply learning how things are applied effectively. KPM

It’s the same thing. The traditional teachings ae a guide for one to find their own individual/personal way.

—True. And that is the whole purpose of Chi Sau…to learn to flow and not to be “robotic.” Same applies to sparring/fighting. KPM

That’s not the “purpose” of chi sao, and a person can’t even begin to understand the purpose of chi sao until they begin fighting – that’s what puts it into context. Without fighting, the chi sao becomes a crutch and it actually takes a person off-course from developing fighting skill.

—I don’t think it is a “security blanket.” Many would see everything you’ve said above as applying to quality Chi Sau as well. In the confines of Chi Sau or sparring you don’t think about how the technique is executed, you just do it. You learn how it works in application. But that is not the same thing as saying that you are changing the way the techniques are executed when doing solo drills, forms, or other practice. Traditional teaching still applies, and is not thrown out as has been suggested elsewhere. KPM

Doing a drill “well” (look at how great I am at pattycake) doesn’t make it “quality chi sao”; the quality of any drill is in how it helps one do the underlying activity, in this case, fight. So one can never tell how their chi sao is helping (or hurting, as is the case with many) them without fighting. Chi sao is a game or drill that will not teach you about application. You learn about application from application. Chi sao takes some of the tools of WCK and allows you to develop them to a certain level but those will not be applied in fighting as they are in chi sao because fighting adds quite a few (lots) variables that were not present in the drill (so those tools won’t work in the same way/situations). But from doing chi sao, one can take those tools and try to find for oneself how to put them into our fighting.

87

Hey Terence,

**You’re asking for a “clip” of me – to do what?

It was I who asked “everyone” on this forum to send in some clips! Its a great way to use modern technology to share with others and use as a base for discussion and learning from each other.

You can’t see from a clip whether I have fightign skill or not; there is only one way to see if I have skill, and what level of skill, and that is in person.

Sorry Terence but all pro athletes, fighters, etc. watch others and thermselves on Video. I would bet dollars to donuts that 99% of us on this list have a reasonably extensive collection of videos. Do you? A trained eye can see lots and discuss lots. You cant develop skill from watching them but learn/discuss you can.

So if you, for whatever reason, think the rataionale for my POV rests somehow on my personal skill level, then you’ll need to come and see for yourself what I can or cannot do.

All of us love to train and train with others. I always post my experiences with others when they visit or who I visited. Travelling accross the county to spar with someone may sound like a fun idea but the fact is its not likely or practical unless you are going to be in that area or have some childish grudge with each other that needs to be worked out. The reason I post that idea and invite “you and others” to join in is because we can all learn from each other. Some spar more than others. Some Chi Sao more than others. Some this or that but the one thign we know is that there are some very experiences WCK people on this list and we can use modern technology to help us learn more by being examined by those on this list. Since we all use this as our home for discussion we must feel that there are people worthy to discuss with right? That means we think the level of WCK discussion here is good so I would also imagine that allowing us to show footage of ourselves for critique by the same people we like to chat with is a good thing or can be.

I can see how some are obviously thinking that many are not comfortable with showing footage of themselves but this is all for learning and not to single any of us out. It would be nice if you and others would participate!

Just my opinion!

Gotta run!

88

—Ah! But this is different than saying that your insights gained in sparring/fighting are going to alter or change the traditional WCK that you learned. It sounds to me like you are saying that you are learning to apply what you have learned in a free-flowing situation and make it work. KPM

[[[ of course ! the training sysytem gives us the seeds and a mni lab to experiement , get to know ourselves in a safe controlled semi live enviroment [chi sau] they key is to create experiences outside of the traditional training sysytem and see how you hold up , based on that information you go back to your ‘‘lab’’ with a real view of what you as an individual needs to work on ]]

[[For example,
This weekend I taught a small group private, and I broke out the motorcycle helmet on them they were all wing chun guys some with a lot of years and one my training partner who is incredible at the chi sau game the guy is a ghost and hits like a truck.

Well in this particular drill the guy with the helmet wears 14oz gloves and plays the role of a boxer we just isolated the jab since this is there first time, later everything will fly.

The other person just has on some light fingerless gloves

His goal is very simple wing Chun 101 enters and hit him with some real solid punches.

The skill goal is to.

  • Get the right timing and distance
  • Hit with full power, no mental ‘’no I can’t hurt my partner stuff ‘’
  • Maintain balance, forward pressure and track the head and body as it crumples moves and puts up defensive barriers

The guy firing of the jab has to do everything he can to keep the puncher from entering, jab fast and hard and keep moving all the time

Well this should be very simple for a seasoned wing chun/ chi sau skilled man, basic punching

Here are the problem people faced even though the are super crispy in chi sau and disconnected chi sau drills.
When it came time to really hit with all you got and balance your footwork while tracking and dealing with a fast mobile jab. Things got real interesting, people that were normally very good were stumbling, crashing, missing, and suddenly the most relaxed chi sau guy got tense and clumsy.

And I reminded them this is more like what can really happen when you really have to hit some one to stop them that is hitting you, the emotion, fatigue, rapidness of change all more common the anything is a chi sau session

But the real assignment was for them to pick out what they found in themselves and take it back to there schools and transfer this information back into the system and work on it

This ability to go out seek experience then bring it back in and customize your training to focus on your weakness is how one can progress.

The level of experience is a progression as well this drill is isolated and has its limits; the ultimate goal is to put it all together in a free environment,

This is how your individual path grows with checks and balances.

So modern training and the system training can support each other if you are clever and can connect the dots

Plus the video of the stuff is a blast to watch I’m still busting up]]
:smiley: :smiley:

89

When I listen to the news the main real attacks are getting shot or 8 to ten people with bats, knives, machetes attack a single person. A lot of the reality training people talk about really doesn’t address this issue. People just say, that’s not possible to handle and then go on to talk about their Thai boxing, BJJ model or they say the Thai boxing, BJJ model will prepare one better than the chi sau method to handle these things. Neither method will do. For group attack you have to also train this scenario a lot even if unrealistic to opitimize one’s chances. If not then one’s training methods are OK for sports, for the ring against amateurs but is juts a case of dry land swimming for the reality case. Perhaps Escrima and Choy Lee Fut skills are better for the group case in that the former deals with weapon attack and the latter is designed around group attack. The Thai teacher we had felt this may be the case as well as far as what he saw in Korea?

Ray

90

I think any of us can judge the performance of Terrence from a video pretty easily. Any athlete can do that. None of us have fought against Tyson. We only judge from his results and seeing him on TV. One video clip can tell more than several years of arguing about what a real fighter can do.

91

I’ve always asked the question, can one tell the fighting skills to some degree of someone in a demo. Yes you can up to a point of course, with the really skilled people showing us what they want to show and no more or less. Problem is some can’t do it this way and have to show the real skill they have and if others critique it and put it down their egos can’t take it.

I believe one can learn from videos, you learn rhythm, flow and subtle little things. I know for a fact that I have learned and absorb many different WC attributes strictly from watching my Sifu in demos over and over again. Say for example I was still a beginning student and watched Sifu doing advanced Chi-sao movements, things I haven’t learned yet, and when I get to that stage of training, after watching the video’s so often my ability to learn those same movements will be faster because I am already familar with them in my mind, all I have to do is train the body and it’s reaction, so IMO video is a great learning/training tool.

James

92

I think that watching each other’s videos could be very helpful; and I certainly agree that skill(s) can be judged from watching - providing certain criteria are there.

  1. The video contains footage of a spontaneous fighting/sparring situation wherein there aren’t many “rules” about what can and can’t be done.

  2. The opponent of the person who sent in the video is ALSO skilled. I’ve seen many a video footage wherein the person who is being highlighted looks really great at what they’re doing - but upon watching it a second or third time I saw that the “opponent” wasn’t really doing anything special if they were the attacker - and basically nothing by way of quality defense if they were being attacked.

So what did the video prove?

Nothing.

Training videos are one thing…it’s understood that the one being highlighted is just trying to demonstarte and explain a move(s) without much resistance. No problem. This kind of video footage is important if the viewer is trying to learn something.

But sometimes this kind of thing gets passed off as a “reality” type fighting situation - when it’s clearly not the case.

Just wanted to make that distinction…

but still want to send in some videos and watch some of other folks’ stuff.

93

Ernie posted:

The skill goal is to.

  • Get the right timing and distance
  • Hit with full power, no mental ‘’no I can’t hurt my partner stuff ‘’
  • Maintain balance, forward pressure and track the head and body as it crumples moves and puts up defensive barriers

The guy firing of the jab has to do everything he can to keep the puncher from entering, jab fast and hard and keep moving all the time

This in my opinion is a fantastic example of bridging the gap between traditional WCK skills and fighting skills. You can scale an exercise like this from 30% power to 100%, you can work different things in it, like focus on footwork for a period of time, explosive power for a period of time, tracking accuracy on punches, then put it all together.

This is also where I think the most value is in discussing back and forth the “fighter/non-fighter” stuff - not just drawing a line in the sand and stand on one side or the other. If non-fighters could see the detail in scaling exercises like this, controlling the pace/tempo to being on the edge of comfortability, then increasing over time, there would be a lot less non-fighters.

Good stuff.

Rgds,
Dave Milner

94

“This is also where I think the most value is in discussing back and forth the “fighter/non-fighter” stuff - not just drawing a line in the sand and stand on one side or the other. If non-fighters could see the detail in scaling exercises like this, controlling the pace/tempo to being on the edge of comfortability, then increasing over time, there would be a lot less non-fighters.”

Good thoughts, Dave.

Unfortunately, a number of people have made comments in the past to the effect that the kind of drill that Ernie described…

  1. isn’t good wing chun
  2. doesn’t really mean anything
  3. goes against the flow of wing chun’s main training tool (ie.- chi sao)
  4. Is unnecessary (it’s all covered elsewhere, ie.-chi sao)

and a host of other rationalizations that amount to a big hill of beans.

95

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]"
Unfortunately, a number of people have made comments in the past to the effect that the kind of drill that Ernie described…

  1. isn’t good wing chun
  2. doesn’t really mean anything
  3. goes against the flow of wing chun’s main training tool (ie.- chi sao)
  4. Is unnecessary (it’s all covered elsewhere, ie.-chi sao)

and a host of other rationalizations that amount to a big hill of beans. [/B]

Victor ,
my training partner of 4 years is a very traditional dude
he is one of those wing chun perfectionist cats

he had all these oppinions and ways of thinking

until he tried the drill and found out he didn’t do as well as he thought he would

but what i was most impressed by is he went right back to chi sau situations were he could work out his kinks

kinks he never thought he had !

kinks that were not noticable when he did chi sau since he is very skilled and controls just about every one he rolls with [ he was getting bored with chi sau ]

suddenly armed with this honest information and video observation , he is energized again

one hand helps the other

this is why i don’t think one should hard core all the time 10 % and if your prepping for something 50%

the rest should be spent on dialing yourself in based on the information you gained when you turned it up and each time you go back to a hardcore level you should improve

now this way is slower then just bang’n all the time and getting good under fire

but you get hurt less and unless your prepping for a fight , then were in no hurry

keep it honest but keep it fun

as for those that doubt these types of training drills , cool the less people that train that way the better makes my life alot easier when i run into those cats they crumble under real pressure :smiley:

96

WOW! Very interesting turns this thread has taken.
YP- Great post about the lower back. One of those things hiding in plain sight in the forms.
I agree with you about fighting with wing chun body instead of just a wing chun outer shell.

Ernie’s post points out what happens when fear enters into the equation. Wing Chun cant be done right until you can relax while fighting and you cant relax while fighting until you defeat the fear of getting hit and hurt which you cant do without some type of sparring and getting hit. What an interesting circle.

So many other great things contained in the posts. Thanks for all the contributions.

Terrence you make many good points but as KPM said or alluded to at least is that what I was hoping to get was some personal experience when folks began to make the transition from classroom to sparring strangers. Everyone goes through some time of transition and learning when they face skilled strangers.
For example the first time I dealt with a TKD hook kick . I had never seen one before and was not at all prepared for it. It never occured to me that a leg could move like that. After I woke up and saw what happened to me I made changes to my footwork and a lesson from the weapon forms was brought home in spades. Sometimes you attack the limb before the body.

97

,

Originally posted by Wayfaring
This is also where I think the most value is in discussing back and forth the “fighter/non-fighter” stuff - not just drawing a line in the sand and stand on one side or the other. If non-fighters could see the detail in scaling exercises like this, controlling the pace/tempo to being on the edge of comfortability, then increasing over time, there would be a lot less non-fighters.

Bingo, Dave.

Originally posted by Ernie[b]
he had all these oppinions and ways of thinking

until he tried the drill and found out he didn’t do as well as he thought he would

but what i was most impressed by is he went right back to chi sau situations were he could work out his kinks [/b]

Awesome, Ernie.

It’s not “either/or” (or at least shouldn’t be, IMHO); it isn’t and shouldn’t be about “extincting” (sic) one type of practice in favor of another. (Although it often enough looks that way, given the limitations and shortcomings of forum dialog and apparent effects of meme theory). It’s finding ever increasing effectiveness and balance.

Nice turn of thread into something constructive and positive.

Regards,

  • kj
98

Originally posted by sihing
In the end, there is no rehearsal, so whatever comes out, against whatever attack will suffice as long as I am the one walking away…
James. My point exactly. :slight_smile:

99

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
And also what I described…
Except that you specifically stated that you disagreed with Ernie’s point. Hence my comment.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]The sum total has become more than it’s individual parts.

Then you’ve tapped into something that goes beyond your personal and individual “specific” training.[/B]
Of course people want to look for short-cuts. It’s human nature. It’s why people want to spar before they’re ready, because they think it makes them a “fighter”. They can’t crawl yet, but they’re trying to run. Hey, but what the hell do I know? :slight_smile:

100

Originally posted by Matrix
[B]Except that you specifically stated that you disagreed with Ernie’s point. Hence my comment.

Of course people want to look for short-cuts. It’s human nature. It’s why people want to spar before they’re ready, because they think it makes them a “fighter”. They can’t crawl yet, but they’re trying to run. Hey, but what the hell do I know? :slight_smile: [/B]

The creation of the Wing Chun system was the shortcut, that’s what the system is all about..

James