I think all athletes of any sport or art form (boxing, baseball, dance, etc. etc.) all find the study of video footage to be essential. Most modern athletes utilize cameras to record their mechanics and study their progress. My main purpose for suggestion videos is so that we can all see each other doing some WCK and use it for discussion and growth.
Terence is right when he says; You cant learn anything from a video! but its not about learning moves or new ideas its about studying a representation of the art and discussing our views. This can be very benefitial for anyone who would be willing to send in footage as you have a number of very experienced WC people (and martial artist in general) who can help us see things we may not be thinking of and vise versa.
I am sure Mike Tyson could watch Joe Frasier and tell what kind of body mechanics and different ways he was using. Ali would be able to understand Roy Jones from watching footage. They all did study themselves and others from before them.
This big attack Terence was not supposed to be the purpose of this idea. I just thought we could all use it for growth. Growth from watching the guys who train more seriously to growth from the less so seriously guys. Just growth from sharing.
"Terence is right when he says; You cant learn anything from a video! " (JR)
Not true. You can learn from videos.
Or to be more specicfic - you can BEGIN to learn from videos…by watching and thinking.
Ok! Thats true. What I thought he meant was that you cannot learn anything from video as its the real time and experience when you develop but no doubt videos are good tools. Hence why I suggested to get us all to send in some footage.
Then it’s time to test it all on the mat or while sparring.
Why not simply look at Wing Chun’ tool box?..
1)What is the range of motions of Wing Chun?..
-The defensive range is clearly set in SLT as the distance the motions travel (fook,tan etc…)Anything defensive going past this distance would be overstretching and losing balance.
2)What is the offensive range of Wing Chun?..
-The punches of Wing Chun as shown in SLT and chum kiu,show the effective striking range of the system.They must be combined with proper footwork but never overstretched to get longer reach.
3) what is the footwork of Wing Chun?..
-The basic body structure must be learned and “understood” in SLT before anything else,then it is augmented with motion in CK.Later more possibilities are seen in the dummy and the knifes.This is the Wing Chun way to move with possible accord between the hands and body structure.The need of more force or adding boxing footwork only reveals a lack of understanding of the system.Like adding english words to french language or vice et versa!
4)What is taught and developed in chi sau?..
-Timing ,awareness,control of oneself and the opponent in the real Wing Chun effective range.Fighting should be done idealy in this range if a practitioner want to be fighting with Wing Chun.Doing a hit and run style fits boxing more than Wing Chun but we know of boxers who fight in the Wing Chun range very well.
5)What is learned and developed in the forms?..
-Proper structure and the concept of rellaxation,useful in order to be able to use the opponent own energy and not fight his force and using the whole body as a force vector instead of muscle.It must be completly ingrained to a working degree to be effective,thus ( ) the need to a diligent practice of this aspect of Wing Chun. Using any other training system is simply not Wing Chun even if temporary effectiveness can be obtained with them; as in any sports where skill goes away with age and muscle tone.
6)How to fight with Wing Chun?..
-By using what is learned in Wing Chun!..
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]"Terence is right when he says; You cant learn anything from a video! " (JR)
Not true. You can learn from videos.[/B]
Assuming you have a quality video, in terms of content - not necessarily production quality, you can learn a few things. Videos can be a good supplemental learning tool, but nothing substitutes for solid in-person instruction and training, IMO.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun This is one of those rare times when I have to disagree with Ernie. I still think in terms of technique - even after all these years. For example…if I see a a backfist…I’m usually thinking quan sao.
Not a big deal either way. It just shows that different people can understand a common concept using a different approach.
And,as “robots”,we must do our best to use the programming we are supposed to use. This incluse the "robots who think they are not programmed but sumply follow some other program making them believe that they are not!..
Originally posted by Matrix Not a big deal either way. It just shows that different people can understand a common concept using a different approach.
Yup. Given that there are different learning and cognitive styles, it only makes sense that people will understand, perceive and characterize things differently.
"Not a big deal either way. It just shows that different people can understand a common concept using a different approach. (Matrix)
“Yup. Given that there are different learning and cognitive styles, it only makes sense that people will understand, perceive and characterize things differently.” (kj)
“Exactly! It’s what makes instruction and learning more difficult since there is not a one-size-fits-all style.” (Matrix)
OKAY…let’s debate this!
At the risk of being accused of being dogmatic…I’ve got to say that, in my experience and opinion, the best fighters (and yes - I mean fighters…in that this is someone who, at the very least, frequently spars with quality opponents who use a variety of methods or styles)…
the best fighers almost always train the way I described; namely, they spend a significant amount of time training (rehearsing) SPECIFIC techniques and strategies against SPECIFIC types of attacks, counters, and fighting scenarios.
And even those people who don’t claim to do this - but DO SPEND a significant amount of time sparring against quality opponents…I would postulate that they ARE DOING IT in some form or another…even if they don’t consciously recognize it as such.
They think they are not actually training their “muscle memory” to act in a specific manner - and to almost always be spontaneous…but in truth…the SPECIFIC responses are being programmed at a sub-conscious level.
You have to train SPECIFIC things against SPECIFIC attacks, or you won’t have a clue as to what to do when the time comes that it is really needed. I use Tan Sao all the time against round movements (round punch, back fist, spinning backfist, round kicks, crescent kicks, etc..) but I have other options in case the time, space and energy to use tan is not there. In the end your body will follow the instructions/instincts of the mind, so I agree with Victor on this one. This is also the reason for certain rules to be in place in relation to footwork and stance placements. Everything is interrelated and works together as one unit. Once the placement of the tools (hands, arms, tan, bong, fok, etc..) is mastered then you have to learn to use them when you are not conscious of what is happening. I remember the time this happened the first time distinctly in my mind. I was training some combat techniques with a partner and he was throwing some punches and surprisingly he spun and throws out a low spinning back fist to my ribs. My right Gaun Sao found it perfectly while simultaneously striking to the back of his neck. The feeling was quite remarkable as the tools just came out perfect for the required situation. You build upon this base and learn to trust your body/mind connection so that your total focus will now be on the opponent and what they are doing.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun At the risk of being accused of being dogmatic…
Pray tell, what are the odds that that will happen.
I’ve got to say that, in my experience and opinion, the best fighters …
First of all, your experience is just that, your experience. There is more to the world than that. More and different experiences abound. Besides, we’re not talking about how you train pre se, but how different people comprehend information and relate to their training. You may start out with “SPECIFIC techniques and strategies against SPECIFIC types of attacks, counters, and fighting scenarios.” But I think things evolve beyond that to something closer to what Ernie has described. Just as a child must be conscious and deliberate about each initial step, after a while it just flows. You don’t think,“Hey , I’m about to walk up some stairs, I need to change my stride to accomidate these steps…” You just do it, without a second thought.
I don’t believe in specific techniques against specific attacks, per se. How does that grab you?
Originally posted by old jong And,as “robots”,we must do our best to use the programming we are supposed to use. This incluse the "robots who think they are not programmed but sumply follow some other program making them believe that they are not!..
all I can say is {I} robot think for myself as an individual
but really this stuff has always been simple to me , some people are good at math
stuff that requires body and mind has always been easy ,dancing , sports , what ever
never had to work very hard at it
Originally posted by Matrix
[B]Pray tell, what are the odds that that will happen.
First of all, your experience is just that, your experience. There is more to the world than that. More and different experiences abound. Besides, we’re not talking about how you train pre se, but how different people comprehend information and relate to their training. You may start out with “SPECIFIC techniques and strategies against SPECIFIC types of attacks, counters, and fighting scenarios.” But I think things evolve beyond that to something closer to what Ernie has described. Just as a child must be conscious and deliberate about each initial step, after a while it just flows. You don’t think,“Hey , I’m about to walk up some stairs, I need to change my stride to accomidate these steps…” You just do it, without a second thought.
I don’t believe in specific techniques against specific attacks, per se. How does that grab you? [/B]
Personally it doesn’t grab me at all Bill.
In the end, there is no rehearsal, so whatever comes out, against whatever attack will suffice as long as I am the one walking away… Baby steps before walking and walking before running, elementary stuff gentlemen…But it all has a beginning, and just because one is beyond that point does not discount it’s relevance and importance.
“First of all, your experience is just that, your experience. There is more to the world than that. More and different experiences abound. Besides, we’re not talking about how you train per se, but how different people comprehend information and relate to their training.” (Matrix)
So let’s examine the experiences of other people in the world. How about champion boxers from the past? Can we start with them? Do you think that they didn’t constantly practice against very SPECIFIC types of attacks and fighting styles?
Do you think that maybe they recruited sparring partners when preparing for upcoming matches who could emulate their prospective opponent’s style?
So that they could come up with some SPECIFIC counters to those SPECIFIC types of attacks and styles of boxing?
Of course they did.
And the same with today’s top fighters in PRIDE and the UFC.
…
Now as to this:
“You may start out with SPECIFIC techniques and strategies against SPECIFIC types of attacks, counters, and fighting scenarios. But I think things evolve beyond that to something closer to what Ernie has described.” (Matrix)
And also what I described…eventually the intuition takes over and true unplanned spontaneity takes over. But the conscious foundation I described serves as the “base of operations”…always to be added to and subtracted from as experience and circumstances dictate. Successful auto pilot simply means that the necessary work has already been done (ie. - specifics)…and now we can just let the subconscious mind take over and FLOW…and sometimes it even goes into areas where we may never have travelled CONSCIOUSLY before.
The sum total has become more than it’s individual parts.
Then you’ve tapped into something that goes beyond your personal and individual “specific” training.
Something else takes over. For lack of a better term - we sometimes refer to it as intuition.
But the problem is…sometimes people want to look for short-cuts that don’t exist.
) the need to a diligent practice of this aspect of Wing Chun. Using any other training system is simply not Wing Chun even if temporary effectiveness can be obtained with them; as in any sports where skill goes away with age and muscle tone.
