Why Traditional Schools Are Losing Out

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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So there’s a lot of traditional schools closing down now or not getting students, whereas some new chain schools are getting a lot of new students.

After talking to several old sifus who are in deep consternation about why these schools are closing down, I’ll tell you why.

You blame it on people not wanting to learn to really hit people. You blame it on fitness oriented martial arts. You blame it on their clever marketing and you blame them because some of them have vague ties to China.

As for point a) people not wanting to learn to really hit people, well, you’re partially right there. But people still want to learn self defense and spar. But they want something more sport oriented.

You blame it on fitness. Well, YES, HELLO!!! A lot of you old sifus are FAT with big bellies. If somebody is wanting to lose weight, they don’t want to go to somebody with a big belly who obviously has no clue how to lose weight.

You blame it on clever marketing. WELL YES!!! HELLO!!! People don’t want to go to a run-down old dojo. Don’t you think they want a nice, new place to train in?

You blame it on vague connections to China. Well, YES!!! Don’t you think a connection to the Shaolin temple looks better than whatever vague lineage you have drummed up?

You blame it on sport wushu. Maybe sport wushu is part of what people want, to compete, look good, etc.

Basically WHY DON’T YOU ADAPT??? Why don’t you let the CUSTOMER, THE PEOPLE, decide what they want, instead of sticking to your old ways, which are obviously obsolete?

I’ve been looking for a place where I can do what I want, practice staff if I want, do MMA oriented sparring if I want, and the only places that are at all flexible are the MMA places.

If you want to stay in business, maybe you should start offering more flexible programs, lose the pounds, and change your tune?

Anyways, this is Neil signing out. I’m not going to be spending any more time on here because my kids want me more than you do. :slight_smile:

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even if a traditional master has no official school to speak of, he is not “out of business”.

Unless he decides not to, he will always have a student, provided he is truly an excellent martial artist and teacher.

to the traditionalist, passing on your knowledge is the only true objective.

Many people believe that a traditional lineage of martial arts is static.

this is incorrect.

Yes the tradition of the forms will remain in tact. When a man becomes a master, he creates. Simply he uses what he finds through out his many years of study, and combines this into his art.

When this master teaches a student completely. this student recieves as much inovation the master can convey through direct transmition.

unfortunately this is not the case in most all situations. But this is the ideal, and this is what traditional masters hope to accomplish.

keep your style alive, continuing, and constantly strive to make your student better than yourself. IF you can complete this cycle, you can evolve your martial arts.

but this is only an ideal, and rarely is it seen.

every true martial artist knows that adaption is the key to survival. :rolleyes:

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Not all traditional schools are losing out, maybe its a trend in the states because there is more competiton in the market place.

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the true tes tof skill is when one maste rof one style can beat experts of multiple styles or ranges of combat with only one.

5

your premise is faulty.

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Its not a trend in the states. He talked to “several” of his teachers and made an inaccurate generalization about the entire country based on how ever many “several” of his past sifus are. Hardly significant… :rolleyes:

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I’ll tell you what. Go to a math professor and demand that he teach you English composition because, ultimately, they are both tools of enlightenment ideals and western forms of knowledge. Why can’t I read and write essays on James Joyce in my Physics class? Both equal western accomplishments in intellectual fields and should not be seperated. For that matter, why can’t I get a massage from the guy who fixes my car? Or a package of bananas from the bartender?

Your whining is stupid…there is no reason why someone should change just because most young people from this generation are spoiled brats with nobody to tell them to behave and no means of enforcing it. I would much prefer my Sifu teach privately than have a big commercial school in which we dance and can’t spar because wavers state it is too dangerous. Real, hardcore kung fu is definately not for everybody but it shouldn’t be forced to change into what it is. I think the reason there are so few masters is not because the arts have lost out on business, but there has never been great business based on the commitment and dedication involved that is arguably more so than many other endeavours. To be great at anything, you go to who is great, if they do what you want, than you stick with it, or not.

I think the reality is that the attraction to kung fu may be lower but the amount of money charged, at least where I train, is very limited to allow more than just the rich to train, and as such can sometimes be too little to pay the lease. That and how many people want to spar all out without any protective gear on?

I agree that Sifu should be in shape but how many boxing coaches are in such great shape?

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My Sifu’s school has recently had an explosion of new students. My teacher teaches Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi, Shaolin, LimaLama and Kenpo. In the last few months his taiji classes have been super full.

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and why is that?

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It’s okay. USSD is taking over a lot of places, just as an example. With blackbelts with like 2-3 years of experience. But of course my premise is faulty. :slight_smile:

Anyways, I shouldn’t be wasting any more time on here because my kids are more important.

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The ole way v.s. the new commercialism.

There are many Wushu schools near Shaolin temple. There are plenty of students.

In contrast, in the village of Chen or Chen Jia Gou.

They still take only few students for the long run depending on merits or the ole way.

One is to approach the general public.

The other is still to preserve the whole deals with a few.

–

:slight_smile:

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Yeah, but the old way isn’t any better, as you can see from the way they fight. The old way they usually can’t fight. Get it?

No train to fight = no can fight. Practice forms and think you’re great all day doesn’t a fighter make.

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Fake Traditional schools are loosing out, not real traditional schools. The real traditional “Kung Fu” schools seem to stand out and attract people who want a more complete package in regards to the term martial arts.

If you take a common Non-Traditional Martial Arts school and a TCMA school that both emphasize fighting, sparring, etc. what do you have left or what is left to offer between the two?

There are people who only want to learn fighting and don’t want to be bothered with customs & ettiquette typically found in TCMA schools, BUT i think the majority of people want more then just fighting and prefer the depth of a real TCMA school.

Lets face it, most people in the west were attracted to martial arts not only for fighting, but also the codes, customs, ethics, respect, and traditions seen in the movies and magazines. Most westerners are attracted to the discipline viewed in TCMA or traditional martial arts in general.

A TCMA school that offers the whole package will always survive against any new or trendy so called martial arts.

There are people out there who would like you to believe that TCMA is less than their style of martial arts because they know deep down inside that TCMA is very attractive to the majority of people and unchallengable if the TCMA school fights. This is KUNG FU magazine right :slight_smile:

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I don’t think a lot of people care. I’ve gone to so many places. In fact, one place I went a few months ago had a very nice, rare lineage karate / jujitsu school in front, and a kickboxing / boxing gym in back.

The karate place had a few students. The kickboxing / boxing gym had a ton of students. All over the place there are TKD schools that seem very popular. TKD is a style based upon Shotokan with few traditional applications.

USSD seems to be taking over in a lot of places, edging out older Kempo places (granted Kempo isn’t a traditional style), but having 2-3 year trained black belts teaching Kempo instead of 20-30 year trained people seems a big problem.

But, whatever. I myself will not attend any more of those traditional schools or even the non-traditional ones that require a set curriculum because it’s just old and boring.

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i dont think traditional schools lose out at all. but hey thats just me.

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what are you looking for?

<<but having 2-3 year trained black belts teaching Kempo instead of 20-30 year trained people seems a big problem.>>

regarding teachers who have been teaching for “20-30” years. 17-18 or 27-28 years ago they too had only been teaching for 2-3 years.

start your own style neil, i think this or mma are the only things that will make you happy. well maybe not mma since you would have to learn their fundamantals and drills etc … neiltaokoushu would be a great name for it …

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Personally, I think it’s much easier to learn a “sportified” version of a martial art than the real, traditional art and that may be why some people prefer the watered-down, sportified thing.

 Moreover, the "sportified" versions are usually very flowery and colorful whereas the traditional arts...aren't.  The people who originally created them weren't interested in scoring points or looking pretty.

 I teach traditional martial arts and I'd rather close down my classes than prostitute what I teach just to make a few bucks.

 But you know, when I tell people that this is the traditional art and that they're going to be sore for a while and sweat down into their socks and run drills until they think they're going to puke, they're ready to jump in and do it!
 
 I think the majority of people WANT to learn the real thing and when you assure them that that's what you teach [I]and that you teach it in the original way (because there is a difference), you'll see a real increase in membership and strong-spirited students.

 Just my two yuan-
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I agree with NEIL 100% most kung fu sifus cannot fight, they can spar there students and look good and show you breakdowns against this type of strike then you put them in a ring and it all goes to pieces.

There should be a traditional class for people that are after forms and learning to be an actor and a fighting class based on MMA to apply your system.

:eek:

Garry

19

Yes Sir!!! Just look at the Wu style master vs. the Crane master, not one single decent move or combo. Some people say it was for charity and I still say they could have done much better. No disrespect to anyone, but thats the way I feel.

Forms are no goodieaahhh for fighting. The only way to get good at doing hands is by doing hands and the true test is with different people. just my 2 cents.

FT,
What up sifu? Give the kid a holla on msn if you can.

Bubyaaahhhh

20

Hey Bubsta,

Im at work right now bro, hopefully tomorrow or when i get home tonight you might be asleep though.

Garry