Comparative Success of Kung Fu Schools

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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I have been studying Kung Fu for over 3 years. Before that, I studied Tae Kwon Do, Goju Ryu, and Wado Ryu. It seems that Kung Fu schools have a very difficult time attracting and keeping students. I’m in Tennessee and I understand that Wado Ryu is the most popular art here and TKD is on every corner it seems next to Starbuck’s and McD’s. The previous Kung Fu school I studied at closed down due to the Sifu’s family situation, but the organization he was part of seems to not be successful as it once was. Also, it seems many Kung Fu schools in the area are moving to gyms in the community and churches and losing their actual kwoons. I know that the economy is rough, but other MA schools are not having this issue.

I have a few theories on this and wanted to know what others out there thought. One is that many Kung Fu schools do not have a ranking system and it is hard for many people to grasp their progress, especially young ones. This sort of turns people off because they see it in many other systems and people do have egos. Unfortunately, that’s just human nature. In relation to that, many Kung Fu schools do not allow children under age 13 to train like TKD and karate, therefore, the interest is not developed young. One of the reasons that baseball is still America’s past time is due to tee ball, minor league, little league, etc. Also, MA is not something found in US schools and is a cost outside the school system which can be an issue. I have a few more, but I will leave it at that for now. So, what does everyone else think?

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kungfu often has a bad rap. but its kungfu’s own fault.

there are too many charlitans and frauds in the world of cma, and the biggest names in ma will be the first to point that out. serious negative pr for the cma.

another theory i have regards modern wushu schools. modern wushu is very, very difficult to do, takes immense amount of time, energy and effort to excell in. Most people who are into martial arts, after a bit of time in a school that is handing out wushu material will often times veer away from that because they are seeking fighting skills, and eventually realize their time could be better spent, well, fighting.

This can often leave a very bad taste in someones mouth, sometimes making them switch to an entirely different style. MMA, Boxing, Thai, BJJ, etc. all very popular MA’s with good rep and outstanding viewable credentials.

a couple of my thoughts on this one.

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Kungfu schools tend to be seen as performance and artistic so they are not popular but that isn’t the goal, or better yet, it is not supposed to be so. The TV show did a lot to promote kung fu but many teachers appear not to have filled the role of teacher and the monthly fees tend to be exorbitant when compared to karate or TKD.

People look at kungfu and its reality portion doesn’t fit the real world usage so it is kind of left behind. You will quicker find kungfu schools popular great in big cities where there is an audience!

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Good post Peace&Love.

When I was about 10 to 12 years old I would take classes at the “kung fu school” in Boynton Beach, FL while there for summer vacation. It was cool that my dad wanted me to keep training while vacationing (I was a chubby kid) but he never respected Kung Fu… he thought all the finger poking was nonsense compared to karate and boxing’s closed fist… I did beat all the kids in sparring, but I used to win a lot in tournaments back then too.

Later I checked out Wing Chun because I was attracted to the trapping I saw in Dragon, The Bruce Lee story. I enjoyed it, the sticking seamed “high-tech” compared to karate’s block-n-counter strike. After getting the hang of it in chia sau I wanted to spar… we just didn’t do it. This turned me off. Especially with “seniors” walking around all puffed up that as a fighter, I knew they couldn’t and wouldn’t fight.

Through Wing Chun relations got into a little Southern Mantis gang. These guys banged. The sifu was a fighter, a big guy. He modified his Hung Gar, Wing Chun and Mantis… used lots of short, sharp, chopping type strikes. Like hammer blows. To the arms, head and torso.

Though these men I found Master David Bond Chan. I wouldn’t be pursuing MMA if it wasn’t for him. Even the fights I’ve lost, I’ve lost them unscathed… My master’s motto has always been MA is not sport… who cares about the other guy, as long as nothing happens to me I win. But he’s a bruiser. A tough man.

I guess my point is the good stuff is out there but hard to find. This is why I like Jiu-Jitsu so much. The activity itself is the quality control. You either tap someone or get tapped. Talk doesn’t suffice.

Until Kung Fu brings itself back to that level it will remain below standard. But MMA I’m sure has already impacted it; woke up those who wanted to be woken up. The others? They want to hide as quietly as they can while enjoying and profiting the little make believe Shaw Brother world’s they’ve created for themselves.

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until Kung-Fu people start opening up their eyes to what the successful MA schools are doing, and start adpting these methods into their programs, they will stay where they are. Some of these methods include a well thought out curriculum with a ranking system, exciting classes, periodic testing, and excellent student service. A good pro-shop can also bring in a significant amount of income. (none of what I have mentioned will in any way, bring your quality of your school down, in fact, they will inhance it)
Good schools and successful schools are not always the same, for obvious reasons, and everyone has differing opinions of what this means. Each teacher has differering ideas of what they want to do, as well. Not everyone is looking for financial success from teaching. Some only teach to pass their art down. Some teach in modern facilities, others teach in basements, herb shops, parks, their homes,etc. Some teachers prefer to teach a select few.

Finding that place, where one can become commercially successful, wihout being a McKwoon, and lowering your standards is a conundrum. I have only met a few who are achieving this.

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Yes indeed, this is a very good post. I think some of what you said in your original post is true to some extent. For instance ranking. I too have studied a few different martial arts in my life, TKD, Shorin Ryu Karate, and for a time Shaolin Do. All of these styles had ranking systems and personally I liked it, it gave you goals to shoot for and after testing you felt like you had accomplished something and it always felt really good to wear that new belt. At my current school we don’t have an external ranking system (similar to modern Wushu), we have developed a level system so we do have some semblance of rank. I talked to my shifu about an external ranking system and he was more in tune with the chinese way of doing it (no rank, simply begginer, intermediate and advanced). In my mind though I think that westerners are more goal oriented and our ego’s need to be stroked by putting on a new sash every time we move up a level. So some sort of sash system would work. My students are split down the middle on this though, about 50% would like a ranking system and the rest do not.

As far as children are concerned I am not sure what schools only accept 12 year olds. At our school we take them as young as 3. For these students we concentrate on the basics (stances, punching, kicking and a simple rudimentary training form) and classes are only 15-20 minutes long. The earlier the better.

Sometimes when prospective students ask me to explain the difference between Kung Fu and Karate I give them an analogy like this. Kung Fu is the ballet of the martial arts world. As such there are more complicated concepts and movements involved. Training is definitely harder, at least in my school. Here in lies a problem also. I see it all the time there is a new martial arts movie out there. People go and watch the movie and they see the apparent ease at which Jet Li, Jackie, or Bruce do things, then they come into a school and think that in a month or so they will be able to do all of the things that they saw. They don’t realize the years of hard work and training that went into the skill level of those masters and once they do realize it they are not willing to put forth the effort to achieve that level of skill. Because serious training requires practice out of class and 99% of students don’t do this. They would rather sit and play video games. No joke, I once had a student that came in to try my class. When I have new students I always ask them if they have any martial arts experience. This kid (16) responds that he is a master of Mortal Kombat and was serious about it. I had to bite my tongue to keep from laughing. Well he went through the class and almost got sick from the workout and needless to say I never saw him again. My point is that in my school and in my opinion, training is hard and most people are not willing to put forth the effort.

Some of my students have suggested that I change our workout and dumb it down, so to speak, for the adults. I might retain a few students if I do that but I think only for a few months anyway and I am not willing to sacrafice proper training for someone who is not willing to put forth the effort and do the techniques right. Kung Fu is very complicated and should not be done like Karate as I have seen some schools teaching it in this manner. I see it at the tournaments all the time, a lot of schools out there train like Karate schools, very rythmic, whereas Kung Fu is meant to be fast, flowing. To quote Bruce Lee, “be like water my friend.”

I have much more to say on this topic but at the moment time does not permit so I will have to continue later.

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I don’t see anything bad about this. The best schools I’ve trained in were generally small.

To run a successful MA business requires the owner/teacher/instructor to teach all the members as children.

thats right, even the adults. The amount of self discipline in the world today has dropped. Nobody is taking responsiblities for the own short falls. We want quick and we want it fast etc.

Now you can eat what you want and still lose weight:confused:

Black Belt “Instructors” being produced in 3 years “Guaranteed”.

Teachers have cut and pasted together their credentials, not actually completing their training one teacher because it was just to hard and again not fast enough. Video tapes, ahhhh.

so personally I think the good Martial Arts schools are returning to their roots.

Private gyms, that teach only those who meet the grade and the gym supports itself - so yes Sifu has to have a day job:D

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A Continuation…

One problem I have experienced training children is with the parents themselves. They want their children to participate in everything. I had one 5 year old who was particularly gifted when it came to Wushu. He was with me for about three months and then his mother stopped his training because she wanted him to learn how to play violin. This was on top of some things he was already doing like baseball, swimming, and soccer. It was sad for me because the kid really enjoyed the training and was good at it, but mom wanted him to be a little more cultured. I am not saying that this is a bad thing but some people overburden their kids without really seeking things that they want to do. Then on the exact opposite, I have had kids whose parents wanted them to train more than they wanted it. This is a disaster and I think can turn people off that may have had a positive experience and came back sometime later and resumed their training.

The economy right now does have a lot to do with it as well. With people paying these record prices for everything, that does not leave a lot of room for extras.

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A successful in business school doesn’t equate to success in transmission of kungfu.

There are many successful businesses who do nothing but contribute to poisoning the world.

The success of a kungfu school is when you can pass on a worthwhile art completely to at least one person who will do the same with it. Everything else is irrelevant when held against that.

IE: If i made a million bucks off of 5000 people who never achieved passed the intermediate level, I may have succeeded in accumulating personal wealth , but I have failed in the true goal of the school which is to proliferate the art. Ergo, the school is ultimately a failure.

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Great responses

Thanks for all of the great responses so far. I find this topic really interesting. No brainer since I started the thread I guess. As mentioned earlier by another post, my former school also had a hard time when it came for the child to make choices. More appropriately, the parent making choices for the child. For example, when soccer season came around, we would lose quite a few students. I believe this was the case where their schools friends were more involved and also a cost issue as well. Our school also had issues where the parents wanted kung fu more for the child than the child actually wanted it. I think that is pretty common in any activity unfortunately.

One thing I noticed over the weekend and I meant to place it in my original post but forgot. My wife and I had dinner with some close friends Friday and then went to get some coffee at a shop. Next to the shop was a new MMA school. I was shocked that this school was opened in such a small town. It seems that for every kung fu school we lose, two new MMA schools open. I understand that this sport has received a huge boost from the media and I guess it is similar to the kung fu craze in the seventies when kung fu was being painted over karate signs to cash in. I guess I’m just a bit worried that kung fu is being lost a little more everyday. As I mentioned before, this is probably not an issue in bigger communities and regions such as in CA and New England areas. It seems though that the southeast is hurting in this aspect except for maybe FL.

The previous member mentioned that as long as the art is being passed on to one individual in its purity, all will be well. I understand that point of view and respect it, but I am concerned that it may not be enough. It just appears that the law of numbers is working against us kung fu folks right now despite all the media attention it’s received through films and even the Olympic event a couple of nights ago.

Everyone’s analysis and views have been wonderful.

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I would even venture to say that business schools success is the exact opposite of kungfu school success because the main impetues is carrying on a tradition as opposed to the concept of “the more you can get in, the more money you can make” syndrome (the hallmark of ‘business school’ mantras), is detrimental in kungfu.
There are excellent kungfu schools who do the competition wushu circuit so that body of work is great at performance so in that sense if you have enough medal winners then you are guaranteed the success. The majority, have to dabble in wushu to be viable but the socalled traditional venues tend not be be into the wushu thing. Can you mix and match? I guess so but it is hard work.

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I think what Kunng Fu needs is to seriously gte back to the roots basics.

I have been saying this for years now. Originally Kung Fu was taught one technique at a time, or in small groups of techniques. They were practiced with partners, drilled and drilled. The training was very similar to how MMA guys do things now (which is funny because they “Act” like they invented good raining principals recently). Kung Fu was heavy on basics and dtrategy and usage.

It has only been in the last 3, or 4 generations that this stuff became dance.

What happened is there was a mass Culturally driven demilitarization of Kung Fu in China. They shifted from a military, and fighting art, to one designed to promote health and unity, but without the “Teeth” of a real Wu Gong system.

What they did, is they kept the hard basics training, and the forms that were originally only taught at the end to senior disciples, and got rid of all the training in between.

Not all lines did this however, but enough did to where you now have a modern tradition of not actually teaching the full art. Actually, not teaching as much as 60 or 70% of it.

The problem with doing this is they have actually lost the original style by not teaching the usage, so students today have to figure it out on thier own, which is the same as making it up on thier own. So you have lots of people who eventually can fight very well, claiming to do such and such a system, but in reality they had to invent a new system that works for them and all they really have of the old on is the name, and some forms.

Those of us who want to solve this problem are in a position of recreating what we “Think” the style must have originally been like. Sort of like Renaissance re-enactors or civil war re-enactors, only we have the added responsibility of making it real again as well.

For some, the lucky ones, they come form lines that did not follow the demilitarization wave. For those, the responsibility is even greater, because those few have the mission of preserving the technology, and style of thier systems…often in the face and opposition of the modern types who “Think” they are traditional.

When faced with all of this, just jumping ship and doing MMA seems the most logical, and easiest choice. But remember, just as Gracie put his BJJ on the map, any one single Kung Fu player can do the same for Kung fu as well.

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[QUOTE=mawali;877127]I would even venture to say that business schools success is the exact opposite of kungfu school success because the main impetues is carrying on a tradition as opposed to the concept of “the more you can get in, the more money you can make” syndrome (the hallmark of ‘business school’ mantras), is detrimental in kungfu.
There are excellent kungfu schools who do the competition wushu circuit so that body of work is great at performance so in that sense if you have enough medal winners then you are guaranteed the success. The majority, have to dabble in wushu to be viable but the socalled traditional venues tend not be be into the wushu thing. Can you mix and match? I guess so but it is hard work.[/QUOTE]

Reply]
MMA schools are doing just fine. They train just as hard as traditional Kung Fu schools do, and they are successful both in business and passing thier skills.

There is no reason why a Kung Fu school cannot do the same.

Honestly, I think the problem is more of a marketing issue than anything. The good Kung Fu schools would be HUGE if they were not afraid to aggressively market thier schools.

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It does seem like MMA schools are popping up everywhere. Personally, I am a little skeptical of some of these schools because MMA has not really been around all that long and there can’t be that many qualified trainers. Really it all boils down to a numbers game. Only a certain percentage of the population will want to do martial arts. From this only a certain percentage will do your particular style. And then only a cetain percentage of them will stick around long enough to attain their Black Sash/Belt, whatever your style does. I have seen research that says that this is only 1% of your student base. However, it is not those students that make your money, it is the ones that come in, try it, and stick around from 1 month to a year. In order to make money successfully in a school you must have people coming through your door and that is where a successful marketing strategy is necessary. But in order to have a successful marketing strategy you must have money. Advertising is exorbitantly expensive. To make it worse you really have to find what media gets to your target audience (the people who are likely to try martial arts) as well. You can’t just take an ad out in a publication and expect students to be lining up at your door. I know from first hand experience and my naivity when I first opened shop. Sometimes you take an ad out and it is just wasting $200, $300, or more dollars because you don’t get any students at all from that ad. They say that a well placed ad should pay for itself, in a perfect world. The internet now a days is the best place to find students. I always ask my students how they found me, and the vast majority tell me online. Word of mouth is the next best. Get your school out there, do performances. A lot of times people in the audience will see that, and even though they may not be personally looking to do martial arts, a friend or coworker may mention that they or their kid are, and that person will say “check out this school, I saw them once.”

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Shaolin1

  • That’s why use contracts/agreements. While it keeps us financially above board it also teaches students and their parents the meaning of responsiblity and persevence/diligence.

david james.

But it should.
Says who, 5,000 students in 20 years is pretty standard today. Visualize the Pyramid and you’ll get the idea. It takes alot of people to support the few who will carry on/succeed.

peace&love & Mawali

MMA is giving the public what it wants compared to TCMA/KF which tend to tell the student/customer what they should have.

RD-alias

3-4 generations is like 100 years - so I guess the majority of KF teachers in the US really suck then.
Hmmm - now when was the last time I saw a purist traditional KFer in MMA??? You can show us how its done can’t you?
Ah yes in your mind, if you charge a person for lessons they are teaching BS.

shaolin1

Shaolin Style is probably one of the oldest MMA schools.

You’ve got it all wrong.

Just like in the past Teachers were sought out for their reputation and skill, not for what style they taught. Actually most times they didn’t even have a name for what they taught - this is a very new phenomina.

If you want to be successful then get out there, teach organized/structured classes that excite your students and produce skilled individuals that go on to spread what you’ve taught them.

So are you in it for the Money or for the pleasure of teaching?

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Downturn

The martial arts that have transformed themselves into successfully sponsored sports continue to dominate the market, and the explosion of MMA leagues hasn’t helped any of the traditional arts so far. One reason is that many MMA fighters are now coming directly from college wrestling, with recruiting going on nation wide. Therefore, many high schools now offer a “martial art” by default with their long standing wrestling programs.

The main martial export of China is not wushu, but rather tai chi, which has penetrated the heath sector more that the athletic sector. As a cultural export, tai chi is the most modern and best suited martial for international expansion (at least I think thats what the republic believes).

Most universities offer a number of clubs for FREE offering a range of martial arts at this point (it is much easier to get univerisity approval than ever before).

“Kung fu” at this point is seen in the US mostly as a form of entertainment and as a medium for delivering moral values to the 5-12 year old set. Otherwise is it basically a fringe activity. Why? Because in reality there are no good competitions to enter…no network of sponsors, etc. There is no “mainstream”…you’re always the “kung fu guy”.

You cannot be in the traditional arts for the money now, because there is none to be had.

So there are basically 2 choices…get a space and share it with other arts, or run a class out of a gym. The third choice, the one I suffer, is to allow your school to be a losing enterprise and just cut checks and stop *****ing. This year I spent about $2K so far.

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There are kwoons prospering out there.

They have generally diversified a bit, offering boxing or jiu jutsu or mma or fencing or SOMETHING that is more mainstream in addition to the Kung Fu classes.

But they exist.

Right Ross? :stuck_out_tongue:

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3-4 generations is like 100 years - so I guess the majority of KF teachers in the US really suck then.

Reply]
That is what everyone tells me. Which may in part explain why you don’t see too many Kung Fu people in top MMA positions.

As for telling people how it SHOULD be done, I am great at that…just no one wants to listen to me. The few who do agree with me are generally MMA types and not Kung Fu people.

There are a number of guys I have come across who still do things the old ways though. The Shui Jiao crowd is a good example for one. Lots of really good old school Kung Fu amongst those guys.

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[QUOTE=shaolinboxer;877318]The martial arts that have transformed themselves into successfully sponsored sports continue to dominate the market, and the explosion of MMA leagues hasn’t helped any of the traditional arts so far. One reason is that many MMA fighters are now coming directly from college wrestling, with recruiting going on nation wide. Therefore, many high schools now offer a “martial art” by default with their long standing wrestling programs.

The main martial export of China is not wushu, but rather tai chi, which has penetrated the heath sector more that the athletic sector. As a cultural export, tai chi is the most modern and best suited martial for international expansion (at least I think thats what the republic believes).

Most universities offer a number of clubs for FREE offering a range of martial arts at this point (it is much easier to get univerisity approval than ever before).

“Kung fu” at this point is seen in the US mostly as a form of entertainment and as a medium for delivering moral values to the 5-12 year old set. Otherwise is it basically a fringe activity. Why? Because in reality there are no good competitions to enter…no network of sponsors, etc. There is no “mainstream”…you’re always the “kung fu guy”.

You cannot be in the traditional arts for the money now, because there is none to be had.

So there are basically 2 choices…get a space and share it with other arts, or run a class out of a gym. The third choice, the one I suffer, is to allow your school to be a losing enterprise and just cut checks and stop *****ing. This year I spent about $2K so far.[/QUOTE]

not buying it. Martial Arts was booming when there were no major sports competitions other than tournaments-which were not for everyone. PKA did nothing for Martial Arts, and MMA Sporting events are the same. The people that will go that extra mile and compete in a cage match are not the majority of Martial artists.
Look at boxing gyms. Out of everyone that joins Gleason’s Gym, how many are going into the ring? Even Coach Ross said that he has a stable of fighters, and he also has many who come to train work out and practice for their own enjoyment.
That is the way it has always been. There is a core of fighters and everyone else keeps the lights on. In TCMA schools, as much as we try to have everyone well-rounded, there will be those who love to fight, those who love to perform, those who love Lion Dancing, and those who are there for their own reasons.

The reason most (not all) Kung-Fu schools don’t make money is that they are always a few steps behind the mainstream. Those people who are in touch with “The Industry,” will market their schools, develop programs, have exciting classes, professional staff, excellent phone procedure, walk-in procedure, and interview procedures leading to an enrollment. They have renewal processes, as well as methods to reach out and bring in old students who dropped out. They have a website and a newsletter to keep their students connected to their school. They have events that maintain morale and school pride.

This is what it takes. And…THIS is exactly why McKwoons can teach crap, and still make money. If you do all the other stuff, it really doesn’t matter what you teach. You can teach the most traditional Kung-Fu, or you can teach crappola.
It works in reverse, too. If you have the best product, but you can’t keep students, or bring in new ones, does it really matter?
nope.

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Marketing Matters.