Kung Fu bothers me

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Up in NY two weeks ago, my brother’s jiu-jitsu coach (whom I’ve met and trained with once) offered for me to train with him for free while I was in town.

Renzo Gracie academy charged me $20 a day. I was there from 9a.m. to 9p.m. Mon through Sat… had my own locker the whole time. Access to awesome training, free play and showers. Even a laundry service for my gi and towel.

Wanted to visit my Chinese master, someone who I’ve always admired, drove home after training for a few years… his daughter/manager charged me $215 (the monthly rate) to attend a single night’s class. Obviously I wasn’t wanted. Obviously I passed on the offer.

Logged onto Empty Flower when I got back, just to see what’s a going in the world of IMA… someone posted who let me back (I was barred for posting truths over two years ago) and instantly kicked out again.

No doubt Chinese Kung Fu finds safety hiding in its own little world. Everyone’s a master as long as they don’t have to put up.

It’s a sad state of affairs.

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don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, Ray.
Those are just two people, two incidents, two experiences.
Also, from what you shared with us about your experiences with these people, if I recall, you had some serious issues with them, and vice-versa.
People are individuals, with their own experiences, their own views, and their own realities. As you yourself have yours. Not everyone everyone who trains in TCMA shares the same thinking.

3

That goes without saying.

I wasn’t surprised by what happened with my master… he’s the one who taught me, if there’s someone you don’t want to train quote them a crazy price. It’s better then saying no. That is just one of the many useful things he has taught me.

I love my master. He taught me very valuable life changing lessons and technique.

I am disappointed that I was treated that way by people I’ve spent a lot of time with and helped any way I could. Not to mention that it was rude and unprofessional.

Empty Flower… I could care less other than losing the ability to point out how ridiculous most of those people are.

But now that I’m thinking about it… I’ve had continual bad experiences with kung fu: countless waisted training hours lion dancing to pad teacher’s pockets. Disqualified from a chi sau event for "too hard of contact"seconds after the head judge said my “arm flipping didn’t count” because it had no power. I have video of this. … apparently what looked powerless packed a decent punch. And then disqualified for head contact against a guy who weighed more than 45lbs than me. Who kept charging in.

You are right, the problem is I don’t think like most CMA practicianers. I believe you train martial arts to forge yourself into a warrior. And there just aren’t that many in CMA circles.

There’s lots of talk of honor… but what is it based upon?
There’s lots of talk of courage… but what’s that based upon?
There’s lots of talk of superior methods… but what’s that based upon?

Its a lot of talk. I’ve only met one man that impressed me to have something unique and valuable. And he’s a crazy, paranoid old Chinese man God bless his soul. I wish him and his style well. They’re going to need it after he’s gone. He’s the last of his kind.

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;880813]That goes without saying.

I wasn’t surprised by what happened with my master… he’s the one who taught me, if there’s someone you don’t want to train quote them a crazy price. It’s better then saying no. That is just one of the many useful things he has taught me.

I love my master. He taught me very valuable life changing lessons and technique.

I am disappointed that I was treated that way by people I’ve spent a lot of time with and helped any way I could. Not to mention that it was rude and unprofessional.

Empty Flower… I could care less other than losing the ability to point out how ridiculous most of those people are.

But now that I’m thinking about it… I’ve had continual bad experiences with kung fu: countless waisted training hours lion dancing to pad teacher’s pockets. Disqualified from a chi sau event for "too hard of contact"seconds after the head judge said my “arm flipping didn’t count” because it had no power. I have video of this. … apparently what looked powerless packed a decent punch. And then disqualified for head contact against a guy who weighed more than 45lbs than me. Who kept charging in.

You are right, the problem is I don’t think like most CMA practicianers. I believe you train martial arts to forge yourself into a warrior. And there just aren’t that many in CMA circles.

There’s lots of talk of honor… but what is it based upon?
There’s lots of talk of courage… but what’s that based upon?
There’s lots of talk of superior methods… but what’s that based upon?

Its a lot of talk. I’ve only met one man that impressed me to have something unique and valuable. And he’s a crazy, paranoid old Chinese man God bless his soul. I wish him and his style well. They’re going to need it after he’s gone. He’s the last of his kind.[/QUOTE]

Amen! And some CMA people wonder why the younger generations are turning towards things like MMA or Krav Maga…

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It’s because this new generation didn’t grow up with Kung Fu movies and Ninjas like mine did. That nostalgia isn’t there.

Kids today aren’t dumb. They see jiu-jitsu guys doing jiu-jitsu. They see boxers boxing, wrestlers wrestling and fencers fencing. It’s all open, public and competitive… the competition fuels progress. The openness cuts out the BS.

You either tap someone or get tapped. No one cares about lineage. Its the ability to produce results. That’s what matters.

CMA training? Most of it more closely resembles Chinese opera training to me, right down to the swinging of fake, prop weaponry.

Of course there will be a million Kung Fu players who will take offense and defend their training … using words over the internet. All these schools in all these cities in all these countries and not one impressive Kung Fu fighter? Am I too believe that Kung Fu draws a 100 percent pacifist group? Or perhaps that their training methods and technique fall so far below today’s combat standard that they either do not dare or qualify to compete at the highest levels?

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The problem is that, from what I’ve seen, for the most part you’re right.

especially with MMA being such a big entertainment sport now. its on tv…kids sure as hell dont miss that.

when you see a couple of very serious MMA fighters go for 3 rounds toe to toe and display some awesome skills, and conditioning…its hard to be impressed by a kungfu form. kids now see real fights, real fighters. thats what the kids are looking up to, thats who they want to become.

its not about bruce lee anymore.

I feel there are some good kungfu schools out there that are doing well. sanshou is getting more popular. that is the area i think we will be seeing a major development in the kungfu world from.

cross training. big time element. the more kungfu guys that start to learn the ground, the wider their field of vision will become.

no body wants to hear it but i’ll say it. if kungfu wants to prove to anyone that it is a viable form of martial arts, it needs to put up at the same places everyone else is putting up. against the same guys everyone else is putting up against.

sanshou is great. lets you see a guys abilities…but its just to un known.

you tell your average 14 year old kid you practice kungfu, chances are hes gonna say “kungfu sucks you need to do mma”

and in truth, i do believe that most kungfu guys are just plain scared to enter the cages. not all mind you (some do), but most are. they hide behind things like “a kungfu man doesnt need to fight in the cage to prove anything to himself” its all a big puff of smoke if you ask me.

EVERY fighter needs to go where the top of the game is if he wants to claim superiority, and prove it with his body.

im glad more sanshou guys are crossing over to mma.

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A lot of the ‘real kungfu fighters’ are the guys that are taking what they have learned after years of cma practice and are walking way with it. using it in the realm of the rest of the world. not allowing themselves to be closed off and quarentined from the rest of the MA community.

kungfu material is just as viable as any other martial art in a fight. but you cant just hide behind your own walls and play with yourself all day and think your art will survive the scrutiny the rest of the world puts towards all MA.

you can be the best long distance runner in the world, but no one will believe you until you prove it by BEATING the best that is known.

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[QUOTE=Lucas;880829]you can be the best long distance runner in the world, but no one will believe you until you prove it by BEATING the best that is known.[/QUOTE]but in the end it doesn’t really matter what others think… being the best at something doesn’t mean you need to prove it.

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this is true.

but in the same light, if it doesnt matter people shouldnt get offended and feel the need to defend.

generally that comment you quoted tho was directed to the “superior methods” kungfu guys. the “to deadly for the ring” kind of guys. and all the guys that mouth box with the best but have yet to gain a title in the realm with the rest of the tough guys sweating and bleeding for a mariad of reasons.

i dont compete, i do what i do for my own reasons. the major reason being love.

but on the fighting aspect of the martial arts community. the only way to show results is to actually fight.

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[QUOTE=uki;880830]… being the best at something doesn’t mean you need to prove it.[/QUOTE]

Um, yes it does. Otherwise you are just believing it, claiming it, bull****ting it, but it is not so.

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[QUOTE=unkokusai;880837]Um, yes it does. Otherwise you are just believing it, claiming it, bull****ting it, but it is not so.[/QUOTE]if you don’t claim to be the best at something… it doesn’t really matter if you are. people who get bent out of shape over the notions of egotistical urges to prove ones worth leads to competition… competition only satisfies the ego. the best fighters do not fight… they don’t have to.

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If they don’t fight then they’re not fighters. They’re something else :stuck_out_tongue:

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[QUOTE=B-Rad;880843]If they don’t fight then they’re not fighters. They’re something else :p[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. While I have fought in the past. I dont currently, and dont really feel like it anymore.

I like to spar but thats as far as I want to go any more.

I would have called myself a fighter about 8-10 years ago when I used to look for that sort of thing. but now i just call myself a martial artist.

I practice because I enjoy it. Its great exersize. Promotes excellent mental clarity and focus. Gives me the ability to defend myself if I need to. Its a great hobby. But since I dont competitively fight, i dont consider myself a fighter.

imo all fights are a competition. even if your fighting for your life. its you competing against another man. Hell solo rock climbing is you competing against nature.

ego flows up and down among the scales of competition of course, but its not always the only factor involved.

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I don’t think one needs “to fight.” The notion of “fighting” actually goes against all the Kung Fu principles I’ve learned. Don’t go fight, go beat somebody… that’s my master.

Thing is, it’s not that easy. Especially if you want to compare against others who are also training.

With that said, I don’t need to see Kung Fu players lined up outside an MMA cage. What I need to see are fewer guys walking around all proud with medals for doing drunken forms and then bailing out. I need to see headgear and boxing gloves and the ability to jam a real attack.

The real point of my first post was to demonstrate the remarkably different attitude between kung fu (prone to talk) and jiu-jitsu (no talk, all doing)… one is completely open, welcoming all comers. The other is exclusive, which sounds more high-level, but its based on insecurities. They don’t even want you questioning them on their message board (talking to you EmptyFlower).

Anyone can walk into Renzo Gracies and offer a challenge and on any given day there are 5 to 10 professional fighters in there who would be willing to beat some a$$. Most purple belts and up would gladly do the same. Everyone knows this, which is why it doesn’t happen and also why its a very cool, egoless vibe in the place. Everyone is soaked in sweat. Everyone is either training hard or sitting against the wall exhausted from training hard.

I love it.

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Show me a martial art that doesn’t have ANY practitioners who talk bigger than their cup size, and I’ll call you a liar and sleep with your wife.

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;880882]

The real point of my first post was to demonstrate the remarkably different attitude between kung fu (prone to talk) and jiu-jitsu (no talk, all doing)… one is completely open, welcoming all comers. The other is exclusive, which sounds more high-level, but its based on insecurities.

[/QUOTE]

I saw this when I joined Judo- basically you can walk into any club, people recognize the rank, and you can play. What’s even cooler is that a lot of clubs will host guests- meaning that you don’t have to pay if you aren’t a regular because most judo players want to randori with people that aren’t in their clubs. They welcome the challenge. The thing that most non judo/ non jiu jitsu people don’t get is that Randori/Sparring isn’t a fight. It’s a test done in a friendly manner because it’s not cool to hurt your training partners. So yeah- you walk in- people naturally want to spar against you- but it’s in a friendly way—

For all of their self proclamed humility- too many kung fu people have too big of an ego to enjoy this type of inter-club learning and partnerships.

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You are acting a bit entitled don’t you think?
Jake

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[QUOTE=Vash;880884]Show me a martial art that doesn’t have ANY practitioners who talk bigger than their cup size, and I’ll call you a liar and sleep with your wife.[/QUOTE]

BJJ, Thai boxing, Judo, even TKD has found its way into today’s top fighting venues. They have earned the right to talk… who hasn’t been known to stretch a fish tail here and there?

Kung Fu talks as if it has battled its way out of jaws of Megladon, when in fact it remains a guppy barely afloat in its own secluded fish bawl.

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it is extremely hard to find good trainng buddies who aren’t azzoles. Whether it’s throwing, grappling,joint-locking, or striking, finding someone who can adjust their levels, intensity, and still maintain control, and be totally egoless, is a rare find indeed. I am lucky-my grappling partners all have over thirty years in MA and have passed that ego stage long ago. My SPM teacher and bros all have thirty-plus years as well. Sure, there is the occaisional oops factor, but on the whole, we can play with each other without fear.
I have met some great players over the years-some NHB fighters that allowed me to roll with them, some Greco-Roman guys who let me roll with them, Peter Chema once brought over his heavyweight shuai-jiao champion-the guy was like Andre the Giant, and we played together. Each one of those guys could have squashed me like a bug. They had skill, size, strength, but they had zero ego.
Then at a Wally Jay seminar, I partnered off with some 30 something Sandan, who gave me a fractured foot from an ankle lock. Azzole.

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[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;880890]You are acting a bit entitled don’t you think?
Jake[/QUOTE]

I have a ton of students who relocated but come back in town from time to time and want to train. I usually ask for a “donation” just so they show some respect for the gym but I’d never expect someone to pay a month’s tuition for one night’s training