Where is CMA headed?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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1

Everyone has an opinion. Thats the great thing about being an individual.

I finally just read this Ezine article by Gene Ching and Gigi Oh. (nice article btw)

If you have not read that yet, I urge you to do so in its entirety. The opinions shared by Master Zhao Changjun are the result of years of experience. My opinion is that his thoughts are very insightful as to what the future possibilities for CMA are.

Looking back at the attempted and failed entry into the Olympics, wushu has definately been effected. In connection with the large publicity that professional MMA gets, and the consumption of mass communication and media sources have given a large range of people more tools to determine what fighting is.

Its blatantly obvious that modern wushu is not fighting.

Like anything else in the world everything is constantly growing and changing. Numbered are the days when people will so be easily fooled by charlitans and frauds.

I’m not implying that there is a connection to wushu and fraudulent martial arts, rather that each have a defining line between themselves and what is actual combat.

Modern wushu however has the ability to capture the artistic soul in a person, and like all artists, there is a striving to display the beauty of their art.

Wushu and Sport Fighting are known to very large degrees throughout the world. When lined up side by side, there is a clear distinction of difference. What goes into the training and what the goals and end results are of such training.

Traditional foundational training of CMA, in my opinion, is one of the most important aspects of CMA, and what gives CMA a great uniqueness in the world.

I believe that, in regards to CMA, Master Zhao Changjun’s method of development for his students is a very good thing. This would give students the opportunity to focus on the combative or the artistic aspect of CMA, depending on how one personally develops. Not everyone is a fighter.

In regards to wushu, it would be my wish to see more freedom allowed to practitioners, a more available platform for these people to display their souls to us.

The foundational training that would give people experience in both worlds before gaining a focus, would be a great aid in free expression of modern wushu. Part of the artistic aspects of martial arts is the warriors spirit itself.

How many times have you seen a well executed form with no spirit?

Being too categorized and confined only limits what people are capable of becoming.

This of course is just what I would like to see happen. Fortunately, ill be able to watch it all play out and see what happens. However I do personally feel that modern wushu has a place among cma. For what it is.

Wushu is at a point where it can be excepted for what it is, and its own uniqueness in the world of martial arts. A more artistic expression in a format derived from martial developments.

Today traditional chinese martial arts has many opportunities to test itself outside of itself. More and more people are heading in this direction. Many of TCMA’s developed masters are very open minded and excepting of the platforms that the world has to offer.

Its the open minded ness and the desire to persevere that will keep the traditional from dying out. Mixing it up with others and pressure testing what you learn will always be the spice that makes a good fighter.

Passing on the knowledge of your art to the next generation is part of what will keep the traditional arts alive, another part is giving people with fight oriented goals the opportunity to test themselves and progress, using the material that is taught to them.

Regardless of the platform, as long as there is true pressure testing being done, we can continue to have our arts progress through the generations.

There is a wide range of sport combats available to choose from. most of these platforms have been developed within their respective regions/styles over the years of development for this very purpose.

Being able to live within the freedom that is art and the expression of your soul will always be a part of martial arts.

Whether this expression is through combat or presentation, the warriors spriit will always be one of the most important factors.

For the future of TCMA, its my belief that this same spirit will always be the driving factor behind why the traditional will never die.

Whats your opinion?

2

I think that China didn’t know how to play the game like the Koreans did to get TKD into the olympics.
Alos Wushu was a bad choice, they could have gone with San Shou or made a “new” system of Shuai Jiao that included strikes and subs and such, to take advantage of the MMA boom.

As for CMA, more san shou/sanda gyms will pop up to take advantage of the MMA trend.
The TCMA will still be there for those that want it.
Ninjutsu is still around so…

3

I think TCMA has lost it’s way a little bit…

TCMA needs to decide what it’s going to be: A Self Defense System, A Sportive Combative System, A method of Personal Development, A Path to Enlightenment, Etc… whatever TCMA is supposed to be, it has to BE IT. No exceptions.

Can there be benefits that are gained that aren’t it’s intended meaning- yes, but those benefits are – cursory at best.

For instance- if it’s supposed to be for enlightenment- could you develop some self defense skills by practicing it?— maybe- but they will be lackluster in comparison to what else is out there.

4

as far as TCMA is concerned what I think would be cool would be sanshou + an aspect of wushu. Presentation of your style.

If you are doing TCMA, there is a chance you have a form or two up your sleeve. It would be cool to see a display of someones form before they fight.

Kind of like a lead up to the fight, jump up to the Lei Tai platfrom and show us your form, balance, speed, power, etc. Then after each guy has shown off a bit, they beat the snot out of each other. not forms in the modern wushu format, but from the traditional roots.

I know this is a little shaw bros style, but I dont think its really that far fetched.

The only problem is a lot of non traditional guys fight in san shou.

however there could a seperate traditional division. where entries must have some sort of formal training in traditional chinese arts. similar to weight divisions. showcasing your mantis against your opponents hunga, then fighting on the platform.

not too sure about any sort of scoring for the forms section, would be tough.

I doubt this kind of thing will ever happen, but the entertainment factor would be pretty high in my opinion.

showcasing traditional styles against each other, through forms, training methods and other various aspects that may be unique to one style, then fighting in a full contact san shou match IMO would be a very exciting event.

Just remember, you heard it here first. :smiley:

5

[QUOTE=Lucas;900729]
The only problem is a lot of non traditional guys fight in san shou.

however there could a seperate traditional division. where entries must have some sort of formal training in traditional chinese arts. similar to weight divisions. showcasing your mantis against your opponents hunga, then fighting on the platform.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, lowering the average quality of competitors ALWAYS improves the level of their fighting on the whole. :rolleyes:

Sorry for the incredulity, but there’s a lot of us who can still perform our forms well enough to place (even if we don’t practice them) and not use a lick of it when we step in the ring. You’re going to see guys sneaking into the easier division in order to score a highlight film knockout over a less skilled opponent.

I say easier, because if you’re spending time on making your forms pretty, then you’re not using that time to train fighting. It’s been my experience that even the guys who can use their traditional art for fighting, don’t typically have the prettiest forms, and aren’t the ones spending all their time training forms.

6

thats why i suggest not going for pretty forms, if you read everything i wrote, But just a display of their traditional form. A display of their style. Simply a display. Doesnt even have to be a form, like i suggested, it could be anything that is unique to your style. A display.

also why i suggested that the aspect of the form itself be for an exhebition purpose, not really for grading or scoring. that would be too difficult. Just to show a traditional form of your style before you fight your opponent.

Remember this is along the idea of traditional preservation. Hell even if the form is only 4 movements. Who cares. You could totally opt out of doing the form for something else.

A lot of traditional guys only do 1 or 2 forms. once mastered dont need to spend forever training it.

I do 2 forms. I can do them very well, but I only practice them on a semi regular basis at this point. Hardly my focus at all, but I still know them very well. I always will.

One guys form may suck, his opponents may be good. Doesnt really matter, its just a display. The fight results will be the fight results.

There is such a varying degree between people out there.

We have so many people JUST showing their traditional forms, without fighting. What i propose is to do more than just show us a form. Show us your form. then show us your fighting. I’m opting for a more realistic approach to a display of your traditional style.

We are talking about traditionalists here.

what did you think of that article linked

7

also, im not suggesting guys ONLY fight in a traditional division. But they could enter here AS WELL.

Nothing to stop them from competing in other international/national sanshou/sanda matches.

hell more power to them if they succeed in both.

besides its just my daydream anyway.

8

they need to add lion dance music to sanda matches that should be the next step in kung fu
about artistic side, sure wushu is artistic and graceful but it ruins reputation of real kung fu because ordinary people generalize. if people wanna express them selves artistically why cant people do things like ballet or capoeria?
people call it wu shu (martial skill) but i call it wu shu (no skill)

[QUOTE=Lucas;900646]

Whether this expression is through combat or presentation, the warriors spriit will always be one of the most important factors.

[/QUOTE]
this is warrior spirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_bEgMqPudU
this is warrior spirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUp1D81kLW8

can i ask you, do you seriously think the average kung fu guy in north america has it

9

[QUOTE=Lucas;900646]

Whether this expression is through combat or presentation, the warriors spriit will always be one of the most important factors.

[/QUOTE]
this is warrior spirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_bEgMqPudU
this is warrior spirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUp1D81kLW8

10

[QUOTE=Lucas;900795]We have so many people JUST showing their traditional forms, without fighting. [/QUOTE]
Too many people misunderstand the purpose of the forms. Forms are used for teaching and learning only. It was not designed for training. Once you have learned your forms, you can just record it on DVD and you no longer need to train those forms from the 1st move to the last move. You should start to break it apart and dig out a lots of nice single or combo drills. Those are the information that you will need to train for the rest of your life and not the form itself.

Where is CMA headed?

IMO, it should be the integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw. You may add ground game if you prefer.

11

[QUOTE=bawang;900892]this is warrior spirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_bEgMqPudU

can i ask you, do you seriously think the average kung fu guy in north america has it[/QUOTE]

Can I ask you, do you seriously think anyone (kung fu guy or otherwise) in north america or otherwise is f_cking retarded enough to do something like that? :rolleyes:

Yeh, yeh… you speak to warrior spirit… there’s a lot of simple folk in the country side all over the world and if they pluck a banjo well, I’ll give 'em props. If they sit there and slice up their tongue with dirty rusty machetes then I’ll call them nothing more then a retard… warrior f_cking really? :eek:

12

Where is CMA headed?

The answer to the original question in my opinion is whether some here like it or not is; towards diversity. And that diversity includes within the spectrum of term CMA not only Traditional but also the sportive aspects (ie; Modern Wushu & Sanshou) and Internal styles, Chinese Wrestling and side topics like Lion Dance, TCM, etc…

The many styles of CMA come from all parts of China and will often reflect the very diverse cultural differences found in China. Something such as Modern Wushu is also a direct reflection of the times that it grew out of (the Communist era of China). Sanshou came later during that era but also reflected a changing of views in the CMA circles of China & from the Gov’t.

I believe you are also going to see a continued growth of things like the Shaolin subculture. Personally once you get past the ‘monk’ thing, what is being done in many of these circles and schools, I believe, is very progressive in that they are doing their Shaolin forms (although argumentive over the true traditional nature of them) while having their people train in other areas of CMA like Sanshou, Modern Wushu, acrobatics, Wrestling, etc… and even TKD & Boxing. From what I understand many such schools are getting into the MMA thing as well.

On the Modern Wushu topic, some here might not like it or equate it to ‘having no skill’ :rolleyes: I personally look at it with a little more open view and think your average Wushu school does a better job of training the athletic qualities of their pupils. Quite honestly I really hate to say because I really like the Traditional CMA but I think a very large portion of it is just UTTER GARBAGE. Many talk about fighting but so few really do have the ability and many are nothing more then form schools, which in my eyes makes them no different a Modern Wushu (which at least trains their people better in their respective sport).

CMA will continue to grow, although I believe Traditional is a bit on the down, and it is only because of the diversity that that is so.

My two cents.:cool:

13

[QUOTE=firepalm;900919]Can I ask you, do you seriously think anyone (kung fu guy or otherwise) in north america or otherwise is f_cking retarded enough to do something like that? :rolleyes:

Yeh, yeh… you speak to warrior spirit… there’s a lot of simple folk in the country side all over the world and if they pluck a banjo well, I’ll give 'em props. If they sit there and slice up their tongue with dirty rusty machetes then I’ll call them nothing more then a retard… warrior f_cking really? :eek:[/QUOTE]

I agree. shamanistic rituals such as shown are backwater and don’t represent much more than a willingness. A larger stronger fighter could easily control someone or render them unconscious. It just takes slightly more work. lol

even pcp head cases that are 100% impervious to pain can be controlled and taken down.

self inflicted wounding as a mark of warrior spirit is erroneous. It’s merely a display of pea**** feathers. lol

14

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;900909]Too many people misunderstand the purpose of the forms. Forms are used for teaching and learning only. It was not designed for training. Once you have learned your forms, you can just record it on DVD and you no longer need to train those forms from the 1st move to the last move. You should start to break it apart and dig out a lots of nice single or combo drills. Those are the information that you will need to train for the rest of your life and not the form itself.

Where is CMA headed?

IMO, it should be the integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw. You may add ground game if you prefer.[/QUOTE]

TTT for the truth.

15

If the core movement ideas, the very rudimentary physical manuevers, if they aren’t present when you fight, then you aren’t doing kung fu. It doesn’t matter if you wear boxing gloves or bare knuckle it, the core way of movement, the fundamental training instilled to produce movement, if it is not there, then you aren’t well trained.

16

Wushu is nothing more than a floor exercise… the olympics already have that. I even saw girls throwing batons with streamers up in the air, doing flips and catching it with their feet. Honestly, who needs Wushu?

As for where CMA is headed? Down the drain if it doesn’t get it’s act together quick fast.

I was at a small BJJ tournament in San Juan yesterday. This is a small island. From the four or five schools that showed up to compete, there were 20 to 25 competitors. All strong, athletic men. Even the heavy guys sporting bellies were explosive. A good portion of us not only fight, but have fought in the past 45 days. One guy fought Tai Boxing Friday and won the heavy weight BJJ division yesterday.

This is a very small corner of a very large planet and yet the level is being pushed here. There’s no excuse for CMA’s pathetic capability in the ring, cage or mat when there are so many Kung Fu schools in the U.S.A.

I don’t know who to blame… the style, the teacher, the students. I’ll blame the teachers and the students. Because that’s what makes a style. And they have made CMA a laughable side show that can’t perform.

Sorry.

17

[QUOTE=Ray Pina;901112]Wushu is nothing more than a floor exercise… the olympics already have that. I even saw girls throwing batons with streamers up in the air, doing flips and catching it with their feet. Honestly, who needs Wushu?

As for where CMA is headed? Down the drain if it doesn’t get it’s act together quick fast.

I was at a small BJJ tournament in San Juan yesterday. This is a small island. From the four or five schools that showed up to compete, there were 20 to 25 competitors. All strong, athletic men. Even the heavy guys sporting bellies were explosive. A good portion of us not only fight, but have fought in the past 45 days. One guy fought Tai Boxing Friday and won the heavy weight BJJ division yesterday.

This is a very small corner of a very large planet and yet the level is being pushed here. There’s no excuse for CMA’s pathetic capability in the ring, cage or mat when there are so many Kung Fu schools in the U.S.A.

I don’t know who to blame… the style, the teacher, the students. I’ll blame the teachers and the students. Because that’s what makes a style. And they have made CMA a laughable side show that can’t perform.

Sorry.[/QUOTE]

ray, you’re asking an apple to be an orange.

is ring fighting the only standard for martial arts?

should snipers only be snipers if they competitively shoot at things?

I see a need for testing applied methods. I don’t agree that testing venue needs to be sportive competition and that it can be done in house.

If the standards are poor, taht will show in a reality based situation at some point I would thing.

sportive combative is what it is and it is not the gold standard of martial arts as much as anyone would really like it to be.

most ufc, nhb and amateur level stuff is frat boy dross on a lot of levels and frankly quite a lot of martial artists can’t be bothered with the poor attitudes, peeing into peoples salads or masturbating onto their pillows as is the way of the ufc set as shown on television. lol, its disgusting really and I can see why a lot of martial artists would never want to associate on any level with those kinds of antics.

not too mention, just because you “roll” regularly with some other dudes doesn’t amount to anything either. It’s just training, isn’t big money and isn’t world class, so in that sense, all the amateurs out there don’t have any more bragging rights than anyone else.

Anyway, CMA will be fine. San shou splintering and so on will do fins in their own venues and not everything needs to be defined by mma which has it’s own standard and it will do fine with it’s thing. But cma doesn’t need to be that. It can still be what it is and still have tremendous value to anyone who undertakes the practice of it.

18

My response has/had nothing to do with competitive fighting.

Wushu is not martial arts. It’s performance. I respect the skill and ability of those who practice it. It is aesthetically beautiful. So is drunken boxing, three-sectional staff and chain whip forms.

None of that has anything to do with CMA remaining relevant, from a martial arts perspective. Actually, the continued focus and emphasis on forms and “traditionalism” (read Chinese costumes and customs) only further alienates CMA from the practicing, functional martial arts world.

Again, this is discussed here all the time. I don’t think it is a secret or a surprise to anyone that your average Kung Fu player has very little to no experience comparing his or her skills realistically with anyone, let alone high-level boxers, kick boxers, MMAers, Vale Tudo, Tai Boxers… in short, people who have made hand-to-hand combat their life and business.

When you’re technology is generation 1 Atari and you are competing with X-Box 360… you don’t compete. You go away.

Kung Fu has already been wiped off the martial art map. It’s irrelevant. Its only lifeline now is the historical/Shaw brother appeal. And that will fade away as more realistic arts continue to gain favor. Chuck Lidel has more meaning to 13 year olds then Bruce Lee.

This isn’t a hater response. This is reporting… just in case you didn’t get the memo or continue to look through your rose blossom, shaolin glasses.

19

[QUOTE=Ray Pina;901150]My response has/had nothing to do with competitive fighting.

Wushu is not martial arts. It’s performance. I respect the skill and ability of those who practice it. It is aesthetically beautiful. So is drunken boxing, three-sectional staff and chain whip forms.

None of that has anything to do with CMA remaining relevant, from a martial arts perspective. Actually, the continued focus and emphasis on forms and “traditionalism” (read Chinese costumes and customs) only further alienates CMA from the practicing, functional martial arts world.

Again, this is discussed here all the time. I don’t think it is a secret or a surprise to anyone that your average Kung Fu player has very little to no experience comparing his or her skills realistically with anyone, let alone high-level boxers, kick boxers, MMAers, Vale Tudo, Tai Boxers… in short, people who have made hand-to-hand combat their life and business.

When you’re technology is generation 1 Atari and you are competing with X-Box 360… you don’t compete. You go away.

Kung Fu has already been wiped off the martial art map. It’s irrelevant. Its only lifeline now is the historical/Shaw brother appeal. And that will fade away as more realistic arts continue to gain favor. Chuck Lidel has more meaning to 13 year olds then Bruce Lee.

This isn’t a hater response. This is reporting… just in case you didn’t get the memo or continue to look through your rose blossom, shaolin glasses.[/QUOTE]

contemporary wushu is not the entirety of the state of kungfu.

As well, your post reads as if you don’t fully understand what it is your are saying.

How do you feel about boxing? It is fairly old has no wrestling, no takedowns, no locks and no throws. Is it anachronistic by your viewpoint as kungfu or rather cma practice is?

how about wrestling? It has no striking, no stand up whatsoever? Throwback or useful still?

how about judo or taekwondo? olympic sports both! with plenty of martial action. No good?

You say you aren’t a “hater” but there’s nothing in your posts to indicate otherwise.

20

Excellent point Ray,

CMA guys do not stand a chance in any competitive event especificall if they say their art is a ‘killer’ art. It just does not stand up. iF someone is doing their New Age CMA then all good and well, Let them enjoy the high.

Guys like Cartmell, Cung Le and a small few are getting the mileage out of thier art and that, at least, is good press that for those who train, the skill is definately there!

This is what CMA has come down to! Empty Farce, invisible self protection and other weird stuff;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk

Even karate is onto this invisible force!