Where is CMA headed?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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21

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901156]

How do you feel about boxing? It is fairly old has no wrestling, no takedowns, no locks and no throws. Is it anachronistic by your viewpoint as kungfu or rather cma practice is?[/QUOTE]
I think boxing has great striking mechanics, footwork and slipping (head movement).
The thing I don’t like is its eagerness to exchange striking. But that’s its game.

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901156] how about wrestling? It has no striking, no stand up whatsoever? Throwback or useful still?[/QUOTE]
I think wrestling creates explosive, strong, sensitive flowing athletes. I think they are very dangerous people, particularly so because they excel in circumstances most are uncomfortable in … tight, face to face fighting (standing or ground). The thing I don’t like about wrestling is its eagerness to expose it’s head. But that’s part of it’s game, no striking.

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901156] how about judo[/QUOTE]
I just got beat by a 2nd Dan Judoka yesterday. He flowed off of me perfectly and three me over his shoulder. After 4:40 of ground game, he submitted me with a choke … he had an armbar and a choke going at the same time. I didn’t want to give him my arm. We both had one loss and had to fight again. He won by points the second time.

He was better then me. He has 15 years of Judo.

I’d like to fight him with full striking and ground and pound… I have 20+ years striking and less then a year BJJ. If you can read into all of that .. the fact that after one match I learned enough not to get thrown again, not get submitted, end the match having escaped his mount and regained side control, then his back, then mount and time ran out … against a Judo Black belt and I’m a BJJ white belt more than comfortable throwing the fists, you’ll see what I don’t like about Judo.

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901156] or taekwondo? [/QUOTE]

Tae Kwon Do is $hit but it’s better than Kung Fu. At least it’s stylists get good, crisp kicking and develop true sense of distance and timing because they spar often. That’s their thing.

22

now, one question.

did everyone read the article linked in its entirety and understand the divisions being drawn between traditional martial arts and modern wushu performance?

that division is kind of the framwork i started this thread on. partly why that article is important to read fully and understand.

23

I admit I didn’t read the article.

I break Kung Fu down into 3 groups:

wushu: not even a martial art. Pure performance.

The Shaolin, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Mantis, Long Fist types: Guys who go to the “kwoon”, train in Kung Fu slippers and divide the time between stance training, chi gung, form work and fully cooperative trapping drills that aren’t very realistic… which is why they aren’t trained full force with boxing gloves, how they should be.

Then you have the internal guys: these guys train single movements forever thinking they can chop a man in half, and that this is the “high level” way to train. But when you spend two hours, 3 to 5 times a week walking back and forth doing a single movement, you’re not having your will and resolve tested and fortified, the difference in every fight. You’re not developing true distancing or timing. You may be developing good mechanics, but Tiger Wood has perfect mechanics. He’s not a fighter either.

There are also the San Da guys… out of respect I would never refer to these guys as Kung Fu, because they are not like the above three. These men are training… they’re sweating. They’re working with boxing gloves. They’re throwing each other. THEY’RE FIGHTING.

Kung Fu does not deserve to claim them.

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;901202]

There are also the San Da guys… out of respect I would never refer to these guys as Kung Fu, because they are not like the above three. These men are training… they’re sweating. They’re working with boxing gloves. They’re throwing each other. THEY’RE FIGHTING.

[/QUOTE]

This is a big factor with what that article is breaching.

There are a lot of traditional guys that are sanshou guys. I mean, China having the largest population of martial artists in the world makes for a HUGE, and I mean HUGE variance in what people are doing.

China has thai boxers, BJJers, TKDers, Karateka, JJJ, Judo, SJ. etc…Its all there.

every aspect that IS martial arts is being expressed somewhere within china. MILLIONS of people. millions. That is a huge number.

but see, there are SanShou/Sanda guys that refer to themselves as kungfu guys. Because thats their foundation. Its what they know, and they are going the fighting route. Taking their foundation, their basics, training the hell out of them and stepping into the ring. With CMA. dropping all the extra stuff and just doing the ring thing.

Its all about ratio. CMA just has sh!tty ratios.

Its like saying every sport fighter out there is a Brock lesnar or Cung le. Just because the ratio says most sport fighters can fight. I can guarantee you there is a sport guy out there with a glass jaw, strikes like a wet noodle and a crap ground game.

Its just kind of the opposite. CMA has a real bad ratio, but there are people out there that are going about things the right way.

Also I think its a bad idea to base an opinion of CMA off of experiences soley in the USA. Bad combo in my opinion. The USA generally abuses everything that comes here.

Its all good though. There will always be people that look at things realistically, and love CMA.

CMA having such a bad light shed on it, IMO is a good thing. People are not able to get away with a lot of the stuff that they used to.

For instance. How many (we will use the USA as an example) guys went to asia and learned a few years of -insert random asian art- and came to teach in americal. TONS. How many of them can say they truly know their arts? Things like this dont happen as easily, but the mark left by actions like these will take decades to shed.

Now a scenario;

You have 3 people.

All practice CMA.

#1 person learns 3 years of CMA. At this point (s)he’s decided to enroll into the san shou program after close evaluation of his/her goals and abilities. (S)he enrolls, and goes about the standardized process of becoming a san shou fighter. Pretty basic. Lots of time and training and repetition and fighting. They either does well, does poorly, or does moderately. Those are pretty much the available outcomes. Permanent and dibilitating injury falling under the poorly done category.

#2 person learns 3 years of CMA. At this point they decided that modern wushu is what they love. They compete and do well, poorly or moderately. Same deal basically. Just different activity.

#3 elderly person is refered to CMA by a friend, health care provider, family member, etc. They begin to study (we will use taiji for this scenario due to populartiy) taiji with the hopes of gaining better over all health. Possibly due to current issues that could use help, modern medicine may have been having problems providing. There is a good chance this persons state of health will improve. They may also notice a wide variety of bonuses associated with their studies (ive personally witnessed this too many times to think this wouldnt happen)

This is an example of the versatility that CMA has to offer.

The old saying:

Its a life style, or its a way of life.

is true, for most loving endeavors. I think the fact that CMA has the ability to offer such a wide variety of ways of life is one of the things that makes it so unique.

Thats not to say that other outlets do not offer the same availability, there are others, CMA just happens to be one.

Rarely is this attribute of CMA even recognized, except by CMA practitioners. Even though it is a fact.

I always find that odd.

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;901202]I admit I didn’t read the article.

I break Kung Fu down into 3 groups:

wushu: not even a martial art. Pure performance.

The Shaolin, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Mantis, Long Fist types: Guys who go to the “kwoon”, train in Kung Fu slippers and divide the time between stance training, chi gung, form work and fully cooperative trapping drills that aren’t very realistic… which is why they aren’t trained full force with boxing gloves, how they should be.

Then you have the internal guys: these guys train single movements forever thinking they can chop a man in half, and that this is the “high level” way to train. But when you spend two hours, 3 to 5 times a week walking back and forth doing a single movement, you’re not having your will and resolve tested and fortified, the difference in every fight. You’re not developing true distancing or timing. You may be developing good mechanics, but Tiger Wood has perfect mechanics. He’s not a fighter either.

There are also the San Da guys… out of respect I would never refer to these guys as Kung Fu, because they are not like the above three. These men are training… they’re sweating. They’re working with boxing gloves. They’re throwing each other. THEY’RE FIGHTING.

Kung Fu does not deserve to claim them.[/QUOTE]

Wow Ray, thanks for clearing that up for us !
Here you:

26

lol.

ray, i believe you have successfully thrown away the baby when you dumped your kungfu bath after your bad experience.

too bad those wrestlers don’t punch eh? useless thing that wrestling when they have to face someone punching them about teh head and neck.

too bad about those boxers getting their limbs busted by a joint cranker with the hooks in.

too bad about those Muay Thai guys getting choked out because they can’t slip a lock.

too bad about the bjj guy getting stabbed

it’s all too bad especially that of the myriad styles of chinese martial art, none of them addresses combat…

p.s My Gun trumps everything you do and takes less than a heartbeat to do it. I still enjoy cma practice. :slight_smile:

27

Originally Posted by Ray Pina View Post
I admit I didn’t read the article.

I break Kung Fu down into 3 groups:

wushu: not even a martial art. Pure performance.

The Shaolin, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Mantis, Long Fist types: Guys who go to the “kwoon”, train in Kung Fu slippers and divide the time between stance training, chi gung, form work and fully cooperative trapping drills that aren’t very realistic… which is why they aren’t trained full force with boxing gloves, how they should be.

Then you have the internal guys: these guys train single movements forever thinking they can chop a man in half, and that this is the “high level” way to train. But when you spend two hours, 3 to 5 times a week walking back and forth doing a single movement, you’re not having your will and resolve tested and fortified, the difference in every fight. You’re not developing true distancing or timing. You may be developing good mechanics, but Tiger Wood has perfect mechanics. He’s not a fighter either.

There are also the San Da guys… out of respect I would never refer to these guys as Kung Fu, because they are not like the above three. These men are training… they’re sweating. They’re working with boxing gloves. They’re throwing each other. THEY’RE FIGHTING.

Kung Fu does not deserve to claim them.

I have fought San Shou for around 8 years, and practiced Hung Gar, (along with some Judo, Kali, and other stuff) for quite a bit longer. I might add that I have been hit harder and learned more from my Hung Gar training than from my San Shou, and that we do very little cooperative work unless it is a new skill. According to your analysis, my training program doesn’t exist.

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[QUOTE=Golden Arms;901218]I have fought San Shou for around 8 years, and practiced Hung Gar and Judo for quite a bit longer. I might add that I have been hit harder and learned more from my Hung Gar training than from my San Shou, and that we do very little cooperative work unless it is a new skill. According to your analysis, my training program doesn’t exist.[/QUOTE]

according to that analysis, a great deal of people don’t exist. don’t feel bad. :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;901150]

Chuck Lidel has more meaning to 13 year olds then Bruce Lee.

[/QUOTE]

In america, ya for sure.

However there are quite a few countries where most people, kids or adults, would say “who?” if you dropped chucks name, but would likely know bruce lee. Didnt they just put a golden statue of bruce lee in moscow?

Not to make any comparison, we here all know who each of these guys are.

but this is just to point out, that the americas are only 1/3 of this world.

There is a lot more to factor in than just what youve seen and done.

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;901202]
There are also the San Da guys… out of respect I would never refer to these guys as Kung Fu, because they are not like the above three. These men are training… they’re sweating. They’re working with boxing gloves. They’re throwing each other. THEY’RE FIGHTING.

Kung Fu does not deserve to claim them.[/QUOTE]

Faulty logic to say that because certain members of a community do not meet your (low) expectations for the community they must not be part of said community.

31

where do you guys figure private security professionals (bodyguards) fit into this equasion.

This is a whole different type of martial artist all together. They cant spend too much time on empty hand or their other skills can suffer im sure.

They certainly arent out there fighting for entertainment. However their confidence and profeciency are very important to their jobs. Generally these guys are given a target to protect.

Secret service guys come to mind. THey do a lot more than just protect the Prez.

Govt. officials, Wealthy business men, high profile criminals, etc.

all of these people procure protection at one point or another.

those that protect them arent fighting very often, but when the **** goes down, they have to make sure they win. Be it with gun, car or body, the job must be done and the contract must survive. Thats their goal. most of the time i assume they are just getting the F out of a hot area and not even having any confrontation.

just interesting to think about.

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;901202]Kung Fu does not deserve to claim them.[/QUOTE]
If Sanda guys use Judo for throwing, boxing for punching, and MT for kicking then I agree that Kung Fu does not deserve to claim them. If they use SC for throwing and LF for kicking and punching then Kung Fu should deserve the credit.

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901216]too bad those wrestlers don’t punch eh? useless thing that wrestling when they have to face someone punching them about teh head and neck.
too bad about those boxers getting their limbs busted by a joint cranker with the hooks in.
too bad about those Muay Thai guys getting choked out because they can’t slip a lock.
too bad about the bjj guy getting stabbed[/QUOTE]
do you really think wrestlers don’t try to hit each other, don’t know what it’s like to get hit, don’t know how to avoid getting hit, don’t know how to take a hit?
do you think it’s that easy to catch, hold onto and lock-up a trained boxer’s hands / arms?
MT guys spend a good deal of time training gaining position in a clinch, so would have at least as much ability to avoid a choke as any “stand-up” art
the typical unarmed BJJ guy probably has as much chance of getting stabbed as the typical unarmed TCMA guy;
just remember though, these guys are all used to one common element: training against resistance; meaning that for them to shift laterally and acquire another skill set under the same contextual parameters is going to be a lot easier than for someone who practices the majority of their art in the air or against compliant partners
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901216]it’s all too bad especially that of the myriad styles of chinese martial art, none of them addresses combat…)[/QUOTE]
TCMA always had two parallel roads; one was the stuff used by the guys who fought for a living: security guards, thugs, gangsters, soldiers, etc. then there were the guys who trained their “weekend warrior” style, which is what a lot of the former types were happy to give out when they decided that they could make a better living doing that instead of risking their lives guarding / raiding someone’s caravan
in the case of the former, empty hand combat was never a priority - weapons training was the deal, and therefore “real” TCMA was really about using a weapon to kill someone whenever possible; empty hand grew to prominence as a) technology shifted to firearms as primary; b) former MA teachers wanted to be able to show their stuff without killing someone else or getting themselves killed - all trappings of being more “civilized”…
plus, you have all that Confucian cultural mishegas to deal with, mixed in with the Daoist hoo-doo voo-doo bits…
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901216]p.s My Gun trumps everything you do and takes less than a heartbeat to do it.[/QUOTE]
not necessarily...
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901216]I still enjoy cma practice. :)[/QUOTE]
me too; but I have no illusions

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[QUOTE=David Jamieson;901216]lol.

ray, i believe you have successfully thrown away the baby when you dumped your kungfu bath after your bad experience.

too bad those wrestlers don’t punch eh? useless thing that wrestling when they have to face someone punching them about teh head and neck.

too bad about those boxers getting their limbs busted by a joint cranker with the hooks in.

too bad about those Muay Thai guys getting choked out because they can’t slip a lock.

too bad about the bjj guy getting stabbed

it’s all too bad especially that of the myriad styles of chinese martial art, none of them addresses combat…

p.s My Gun trumps everything you do and takes less than a heartbeat to do it. I still enjoy cma practice. :)[/QUOTE]

Read this carefully.

You asked me for my opinion on several arts you listed. I gave you my honest thoughts on those styles. They are my opinion, based on my experience. Nothing more. Nothing less.

However, the hostility, gleamingly apparent by your remark that your gun trumps “everything I do,” just highlights the type of passive aggressiveness I find with Kung Fu types… and it stems from what you feel to be true inside.

Someone here made a remark that there are competitive fighters not worth a snot. That would be me! I’ve yet to win a sanctioned fight!

Do I take it personally? Hell no. I know I have knock out power. I tapped 5 guys who showed up to win yesterday. Losing, and how you deal with it, is part of being a winner.

As for what’s going on in China and other parts of the world, it’s no surprise to me. There was an American in San Juan yesterday. A genius working for the CDC who just moved from Bangkok. He game me a t-shirt of some South East BJJ association. Schools everywhere. Turns out there’s a BJJ school in SHanghai and I’ll be there in March so I’ll check it out. Which is a shame. That I’ll be in Shanghai looking for BJJ instead of Ba Gua. But I know to find good Ba Gua I’d have to eat a bunch of **** if I’m lucky… and it will probably be bad. Where as the BJJ will most likely be surprisingly good.

As for me having a “bad” kung fu experience… hog wash. Again, I don’t want to flame the hater fire, but my kung fu experience has been better than most.

My initiation into Kung Fu was from an Italian that studied with several names in Chinatown. Then I got introduced to guys who fought with Norman and Milton China, Frank Yee, the Wing Chun guys at the Free Masons club. Hanging in the parks in NYC CHinatown. That alone is more than probably 90% of the people here. And that was core, 5 days a week for 5 years.

Then I learned internal from Master David Bond Chan… the man. His Ba Gua is 4th generation. From the real deal Master Wong tsong Fei. Real deal people. Real fighters. I’ve seen the old man beat young strong men. Beat me every time, every way. I had to consider that Kung Fu because everyone was Chinese and I knew they were “kung fu” styles but the training and thinking was completely different.

How can you take pride in Kung Fu and not be one of the people getting off your a$$ and doing something about it? Is that what your training has taught you? Leave it to someone else?

I’m more Kung Fu than most of you. But when the house smells like $hit I acknowledge it and do some house cleaning. Not bury my nose in the sand and make believe everything is roses.

Kung Fu is fu(king dead. And you all killed it.

Instead of typing $hit, bring it back to life.

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;901271]Read this carefully.

Someone here made a remark that there are competitive fighters not worth a snot. That would be me! I’ve yet to win a sanctioned fight!

[/QUOTE]

I disagree with you on that Ray. You may not have won a sanctioned fight. But you are still a fighter and you CAN fight. The difference being most likely you have an apptitude for the work.

There are, and we have all seen them, people who just cant get it. They either dont understand the motor skills involved, their bodies just wont move right, or some other factor is in the way.

Some people, even after years and years of practice, their fighting will always just be so, so. If that. They may have good technique at this point, but thats just from repetition.

Its just like anything else really.

Take driving for example. Everyone can drive a car. Most people do. But how many of them can REALLY DRIVE?

One of the best drivers ive ever met couldnt get his license till he was 25. He just had some roadblocks put up in his way, from driving before the law said he could. didnt stop him from driving, and now he races.

OOP, saved by the bell. Time to go home!

36

Sure. A lot of people don’t get it. Probably more than half has been my experience. You have 10 guys, two will be naturals who pick things up right away. A couple drills and they got it. But also, these guys tend not to miss training, never. Even when they’re injured they train around it.

The rest will get the techniques at their own pace. Some quicker then others, but they’re casual about it.

Maybe 3 years ago I’d say someone would stumble into a cage match that had no business there… that was me, with no BJJ training at all. Today, even at the amateur level, folks are super hard core. You have to be. That’s the thing that I’m trying to get across here… I don’t think Kung Fu people really appreciate how hard folks are training.

At the BJJ tournament I was at this weekend, God, everyone looked like race horses. Sleek muscle. Gis get torn open, and the bodies are chiseled. Not from body building, but from training. This is what it takes. The best man wins.

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Hey Ray, how long did you study with Norman Chin and Milton Chin, and Frank Yee?(I was not aware of this-you’ve never mentioned it before) How long were you in David Bond Chan’s school?

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[QUOTE=Ray Pina;901271]Read this carefully.

How can you take pride in Kung Fu and not be one of the people getting off your a$$ and doing something about it? Is that what your training has taught you? Leave it to someone else?

I’m more Kung Fu than most of you. But when the house smells like $hit I acknowledge it and do some house cleaning. Not bury my nose in the sand and make believe everything is roses.

Kung Fu is fu(king dead. And you all killed it.

Instead of typing $hit, bring it back to life.[/QUOTE]

This part of your post, Ray, I totally can relate to in many ways.

39

sorry ray, but I think you’re the only passive aggressive here and trying to cherry pick one counterpoint to go off on me is not making your opinion any stronger or more acceptable.

truly.

yes, the points are only your opinion and you insult every kungfu person out there with your one sided rants about how it’s ineffective etc etc.

Your remarks are basically taunts, so don’t expect everyone to slide up to your feet and profess your wisdom when so many of yoru statements are brimming with outright ignorance.

Your few years of kungfu training is NOTHING when compared to what there is available and the methods and how they are used. You pick out the weakest examples and hold those up as the axioms of teh whole.

This further underlines your own passive aggressive attitudes towards martial arts from china.

I can’t change your crappy experience ray. just do your thing and its probably better if you let others do theirs.

also, it ain’t about you man. You try to bring it there, but you and i are insignificant in the scope of the subject.

when you say your training is better, i say your training is irrelevant to the next step up. you then apparently try to throw that at me as passive aggressive.

To me, that only makes you looks stupid ray. I merely stated a fact, and the fact is that all h2h and sportive combative is anachronistic when compared to a firearm and you can train your whole life and be just spiffy with a rear naked but in reality,. you, and I and everyone else is nothing compared to less than an ounce of lead travelling at 300 miles a second. it’s just a fact and it outlines the relevancy of the subject.

that being that all h2h art are useless in the face of superior firepower. period. take it at face value and try to accept that not everyone is into what you are and there are plenty of people out there who train nothing but kungfu and some can kick your ass and some can’t. so what.

you take it too far with your ignorant blanket statements about slippers and your other underhanded comments.

some of what you say is well founded, quite a lot of it is just bitter rants though.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;901353]Hey Ray, how long did you study with Norman Chin and Milton Chin, and Frank Yee?(I was not aware of this-you’ve never mentioned it before) How long were you in David Bond Chan’s school?[/QUOTE]

I didn’t study with Frank Yee, my first Kung Fu teacher Sifu Mike did. His brother Mark introduced me to “Uncle Milton” over dinner. I trained heavily with his guys for a couple years, 2 or 3. That was one of my best martial arts experience… no forms. We would go ape **** on the bags for 3 minute rounds, then put on head gear and light bag gloves and chi sau full contact with head strikes but semi-fast stoppage. We would spar. Not point spar, but fight spar. Got KOed for the first time with this group.

Good guys. We would all get dinner afterwards. Unfortunately, politics over who was actually who’s student and thus who should get paid caused issues right as it was time for me to start learning from Master Chan. I will say Sifu Mark never charges us. We were simply there for each other if one had a flat, a problem, etc. I owe Sifu Mark a lot because he was the first person I trained with that kept it very simple. And knew that it was a bout bringing and controlling aggression.

Master Chan. I trained with him, I’d like to say for 7 years. I started sometime in my mid-20s up until about four months before I moved here. I moved here two years ago Feb. 1. I’m 34. So maybe 10 years.

I can say training with Master Chan has transformed my thinking and the way I approach martial arts study. I no longer care about acquiring techniques. I care about finding ways to fuel them most efficiently: Structure, mechanics, positional leverage.

At the same time, I now see how foolish a lot of martial arts thinking is… take something as standard as the Wing Chun practice of top-side fuk sau straight to an eye jab. They take pride in this. It’s stupid… when you release the top-hand to go for my eyes, my underside arm can wedge your strike high and off target while getting your eye… no control. Everyone just wants to hit faster and harder. Close your door, open their door, hit while your door is still closed.

This is why after 3 kickboxing and 2 MMA losses I’m still so pretty.:slight_smile: I may lose, but no one has beaten me up. Well, one guy bounced me off the ropes and broke my face, but that was an exceptional case (him, and the situation).