Why no respect....

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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The difference here is between TCMAists that don’t fight and those who do. TCMA itself is not at issue here.

San shou to me has always been about CMA fighting. Most, if not all, of you who do San shou come from CMA backgrounds.

“the best way to promote San Shou is to downplay it’s association with CMA.”

You can’t say that it not happening and you can’t say that aligning itself with TCMA has hurt it. To say it has aligned itself with kung fu is not accurate, it came from CMA, It was never anything separate to begin with. Its not logical. If tcma hurt it, its because san shou players want to change their image to resemble MMA, instead of trying to project their own.

It seems San shou wants to divorce itself from the crap schools( and there are many, that can’t be denied). This is understandable. Except they are doing it by trying to be like the “cool” kids and jump on the bandwagon with all the other fighting venues and dissing their nerdy “cousins”. Its kind of childish. The personal attacks are childish, too. I’m trying to turn a new leaf and stick to the discussion and not go high school all over the point.

Unfortunately, when you lump all those crappy schools under the umbrella term “traditionalists” you also include all the good schools that do fight. So you get people like me complaining and pointing out that san shou is kung fu.

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Oh and to get to the actual topic, pre-hijack.

San shou needs just 3 things.

  1. It needs better marketing.

  2. It needs to be given more prestige, aka better marketing.

  3. And it needs more coverage, aka better marketing.

Its doesn’t matter what its aligned to. You give the average person a reason to think San shou is what to watch, that and only that is going to bring in the fans, the money and later the respect.

Aligning it kung fu after only increases the mystique factor. Fans eat that up.

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  • “It seems San shou wants to divorce itself from the crap schools( and there are many, that can’t be denied). This is understandable” -

Abel seems to have stolen the correct :slight_smile:

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well, If you’re going to quote me then include this.

“Unfortunately, when you lump all those crappy schools under the umbrella term “traditionalists” you also [tend to] include all the good schools that do fight. So you get people like me complaining and pointing out that san shou is kung fu.”

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Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]

Sorry, we don’t. I’m not trying to be a jerk, just poining out the cold hard facts.

People whom actually fight.

MMA, Submission Grappling, Brazillian jiu jutsu, Catch as Can wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, San Shou, Full Contact Karate, “Dog Brothers” style weapons fighting.. [/B]

well most of those are sports i would like to see how good many of these guys are in the realworld such as high level bodygaurds etc…not saying kungfu has high level bodygaurds i’m just saying the socalled realworld fighters we here about i’m betting aren’t all that real…how many real fights has royce gracie had agianst opponnents bigger and more skilled than he that are trying to rip his head off and rape his loved ones…just generalizing

also Dog brothers…the guy in my avatar harry wu one of his students has a student who is a member of dog brothers and he says all the hop gar kung fu he learned he knows it is very usefull so you’re a liar:)

just playing with you but i’m not lieng
peace

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diego, cheers for the entertainment :rolleyes:

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MMA, Submission Grappling, Brazillian jiu jutsu, Catch as Can wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, San Shou, Full Contact Karate,

well ib besides dog bros the rest are just sports…okay boxing is a fighting art right…lol

gaurantie you mike tyson in his prime would get rocked by a skinny dude with a knife…you disagree?..why

48

diego

MMA, Submission Grappling, Brazillian jiu jutsu, Catch as Can wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai.

Ok bud if they are just sports, why don’t prove your theory, go down to your local clubs where they do the above arts and throw down a challenge telling them you will kick their arse with your dim-mak claw!!

Its very easy to make sweeping statements of what is or is not good on the street without actually putting yourself in the line of fire.

as for san shou and full contact Karate I would not like to comment on their effectiveness on the street as I have had no personal experience of these arts.

49

Um…

Mike Tyson is a bad match up for anybody. Blinding fast hands and a bad attitude, plus knockout power, plus resilience. Obviously the guy with the knife has evened the score, but only if he knows what he’s doing–cause if you’re close enough to stab with a 5 inch blade, you’re probably close enough to get KTFO. If he misses a guy like Mike or doesn’t land a truly disabling blow he could be in a world of hurt.

A better question might be–how many people would like to be staring into the face of a guy who’s “been there, done that” many times and has had some pretty good showings?

Yeah, I know the street is different and certain things might get you into trouble, blah blah blah, but these “sport” (said derisively because we all know that any ‘sport’ is automatically inferior to REAL MA’s) people had to have a specific mental mindset to compete and win–toughness, confidence, a general fight plan, experience in overcoming the jitters, and a willingness to keep pushing until you succeed…and once the fight is on, it’s a FIGHT–a physical confrontation --a place where they’ve been many times before. Self-defense has already failed at that point.

That said, we’re never going to find out who the best streetfighter in the world is. Every time they pop up, somebody shanks them or fills their bodies with lead.

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" Yeah, I know the street is different and certain things might get you into trouble, blah blah blah, but these “sport” (said derisively because we all know that any ‘sport’ is automatically inferior to REAL MA’s)"

Just my IMHO on this comment: I have absolutely no doubts about the effectiveness of “sport” fighting in any circumstances.In my view,there are no more “real” MA’s.Some have the sport section,some don’t.It is only a question of personal choices and preferences.Some people are not attracted to the sport format and there is nothing wrong in this.

O.K. Some tma guys are snob about sport styles ,I concede. But many sport fighters are complete jerks about the issue and are overly agressive.

What will we do or think about this in 20 years?..

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But many sport fighters are complete jerks about the issue and are overly agressive.

It’s funny you should say this because most of the sport fighters I’ve met/trained with are as nice as you get. They aren’t aggro at all. In fact, I’ve met more guys who train in some sort of TMA and don’t do a sport art that think “they’re all that.”

Heck Tiger Schulmann and his brother practically started two fights at grappling tournaments that I know of, (I was there for both) and I’ve got a friend in Kenpo who will sit and tell you stories all day long about guys with attitudes because they “know” what they’re doing, don’t like a call, your looks, your joking comments, insert issue here and have never been in a physical confrontation (sport or otherwise) in their lives.

Sport competition has a way of keeping you humble. It attracts its fair share of *******s (honestly, what doesn’t?), but most of them get weeded out by the time you get around a little bit because everybody gets their ass whipped by somebody.

In this case, it’s an issue of preference. If I have to take elitism in some form, because I agree with you that it exists across the board, then I’ll take a sport with some ****y guys, rather than flat out snottiness from people who 99% of the time, have never “walked the walk.”

In 20 years what will we think? Honestly that question may not exist. There will be a much lower fence. The truth is that MMA as a format, San Shou as a format–these are the waves of the future. People are going to start arguing about individual fighters rather than styles and overall training methods. People will earn respect through their actual fight records and/or ability to train top-notch students with records - as it should be.

Some may not fight or train fighters–but they’ll start admitting it up front. My boxing coach flat out said–"You aren’t going to become a pro with me. I don’t train pro’s I’m not interested. You’ll learn the basics and you’ll learn them well, and I’ll get you some fights when you’re ready, if you’re interested.

He fills a niche, he knows it and he admits it. I think this dual scenario is where we’re headed–the division between fighters (at all appropriate levels of competition) and hobbyist (at all appropriate levels of competition), with everybody understanding that up front.

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I did’nt say “all sport fighters are …Bla bla”…
But,some of them (Many) who post here and other places (They say that they are fighters anyway!) are exactly that.

" In 20 years what will we think? Honestly that question may not exist. There will be a much lower fence. The truth is that MMA as a format, San Shou as a format–these are the waves of the future. People are going to start arguing about individual fighters rather than styles and overall training methods. People will earn respect through their actual fight records and/or ability to train top-notch students with records - as it should be."

Honestly,this is again showing one side of the fence.The sport fighting side and,when you say that…“these are the waves of the future. People are going to start arguing about individual fighters rather than styles and overall training methods.”…You are in contradiction with your own idea here!..It is OK if there is no more styles separations only if the sole existing styles are MMA and sanshou.So there will be no more room for different ideas and tastes?..

I always wonder why not simply accept and respect what others are doing.I would not be interrested in fighting in the ring but that does not mean I think those who do it are stupid and low life.

As I said before: The martial arts world is a lot bigger than it’s sport side only.there are maybe 10000 TMA’s practitioners for 100 MMA’s pro and semi-pro fighters.The wave of the future is nowhere where the MMA’s propagandists would like us to believe.

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In general OJ most guys who train for the ring don’t have a problem with traditional fighters and what we do. It’s also been my experience that traditional guys and combative guys usually don’t have problems with each other or ring fighters either. As long as each is honest about what they do and realizes the strenghts and weakness’ of what they do. Personally I would never go to a guy who trains only for ring fighting about self defense. Training, conditioning and technique yup, but not self defense. But then it’s also silly to go to the local kata champ and have him coach a fighter for his next bout, but maybe he could help the fighter with being more relaxed and flexible in his movements.

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Re: diego

Originally posted by Internal Boxer
[B]MMA, Submission Grappling, Brazillian jiu jutsu, Catch as Can wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai.

Ok bud if they are just sports, why don’t prove your theory, go down to your local clubs where they do the above arts and throw down a challenge telling them you will kick their arse with your dim-mak claw!!

Its very easy to make sweeping statements of what is or is not good on the street without actually putting yourself in the line of fire.

as for san shou and full contact Karate I would not like to comment on their effectiveness on the street as I have had no personal experience of these arts. [/B]

okay now i wonder if you a troll or real…but anyway i knew you would misread me for some reason.

point is i would rather be the skinny dude with the knife then strictly mike tysons skills…give tyson a knife and let him use his boxing skills…i would rather have philipino knife fighting skills than boxer skills in a knifefight…now reread my post and think about it.

i would love to have royce and all the mma champs skills but in a knifefight i wouldn’t rely on my fighting-sport skills alone…i would go seek out some knife fighting maestros from the philipinnes etc…make sence?.

MerryP just answered your post aswell:)
cheers

55

Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]Um…

Mike Tyson is a bad match up for anybody. Blinding fast hands and a bad attitude, plus knockout power, plus resilience. Obviously the guy with the knife has evened the score, but only if he knows what he’s doing–cause if you’re close enough to stab with a 5 inch blade, you’re probably close enough to get KTFO. If he misses a guy like Mike or doesn’t land a truly disabling blow he could be in a world of hurt.

[/B]

obviously i agree with you as you always seem sincere and realistic with how you come across as a scrapper…my statements main point was…would you rather be mike tyson level boxer or would you rather be that unprofessionally trained skinny dude with a knife…who knows what that dude has been through may be a prison knifefight champion with great natural skill etc…my point was all this hoopla we read on the net from socalled tradionalists and non-alike i’m betting peeps who chat like this have never been in a real fight talking about boxing is a fighting art come on…wheras i’m sure tyson being straight ghettoe is prolly pretty handy with a knife…which has nothing to do with his boxing skills

so i just wish peeps would get onsome bruce lee shiat and organize and come up with that total fighting art method…freag we have enough technology and science to make some cool azz shiat if every system got together and blended…you know what i’m saying:)

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Merry said : It’s funny you should say this because most of the sport fighters I’ve met/trained with are as nice as you get.

Rogue said: In general OJ most guys who train for the ring don’t have a problem with traditional fighters and what we do.

So what’s up with ShaolinTiger00/Ralek? Huh? Bad example?

And when did I become a TMA??? I trained a modified Wing Chun and JKD for SPORT. SPORT which I ENGAGED in. SPORT is what I practiced for and orientated myself towards. I know very little of self defense, unfortunately. Not enough time to do everything, you know? My teacher is a veteran of many boxing matches, cage matches, other NHB matches, street fights and other situations that have come up in his time as a Cook County Sheriff. But because I respect TMA and its methods and some of its practioners, because I didn’t practice San Shou ™, I have “caught the incorrect”

BTW, respect has nothing special to do with martial arts. However it has everything to do with being a human being. Some of these guys are resorting to the high-school thing because they are incapable of making a logical argument.

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fa_jing, I know and am friendly with several active competitors, and they are really good guys. We talk shop, trade ideas and respect what we each do. They train for the ring and they know that I train for enjoyment and self defense. We all know they could kill me in the ring but they think it’s great that I work 50+ hours a week, do things with my family, that I’m over 40 and still find time to train, albiet not at their level. Now if I started giving them advice about ring tactics I’m sure they’d laugh their ass’s off.
Really I’ve caught more crap from the guys who “train” for competition but for some reason never make it into the ring. I doubt they even make their training sessions on a regular basis.:slight_smile:

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I don’t doubt it, Rogue. That’s why I took issue with Ross’ remark in the first place.

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He fills a niche, he knows it and he admits it. I think this dual scenario is where we’re headed–the division between fighters (at all appropriate levels of competition) and hobbyist (at all appropriate levels of competition), with everybody understanding that up front.

I think therein lies the problem with a lot of tma schools.. They sort of hide this from there students, or start filling them with mystical notions.

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"oint is i would rather be the skinny dude with the knife then strictly mike tysons skills…give tyson a knife and let him use his boxing skills…i would rather have philipino knife fighting skills than boxer skills in a "

Im sorry diego, but that made about as much sense as letting hellen keller babysit a retarded child.