Do you find this to be the case? Most people now know about wrestling, Muay Thai and boxing etc. Kung fu doesn’t seem to be respected much anyomore, especially when I talk to people involved in MMA. Has anyone else found this?
DEFINITELY…but we only have ourselves to blame…
Are you talking about inside of the martial arts world or without? In the sport fighting arenas I dont think so but thats because most of the kungfu guys there are crosstraining, in essences saying what they know isnt good enough, and most of them dont train hard enough.
Red - If that’s true, then why is Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ, or Wrestling respected?
Braden, I was working with a wrestling friend the other day, something I have been talking to merryprankster about. Anyway, I realized that your average kungfu guy does not work out nearly as hard as your average grappling guy. This is of course a generalization. I think this translates directly to the upper level of fighting as well, those guys who fight professionally. Walk into any kwoon on any given day and see if they are working or sweating as much as say a high school wrestling team?
I would also say that some of those styles you listed tend to attract more aggressive people, again a generalization.
Most people now know about wrestling, Muay Thai and boxing etc.
Put those three sports together and you have Chinese San Shou, which has been beating muay thai fighters at their own sport in recent competitions.
Red - I understand. Just that that wasn’t your original argument.
To elaborate, the question was asked about why kungfu styles weren’t respected. You outlined a quality they had which was the reason. I, albeit poorly, tried to indicate that respected styles also had this quality. The conclusion I meant you to draw was that your original argument was faulty.
ShaolinTiger - Sanshou is boxing, wrestling and muay thai? Do you mean it is those training formats, or it is those competition formats?
Braden, I am not sure I follow. Are you talking about the idea that kungfu people often cross train in sport fighting? If thats what your hitting at, I would say that was an incorrect belief on most of these guys parts. I just dont think they have studied their kugfu hard enough.
If you go to a school and find the teacher teaches muay thai and bjj, is it safe to assume that the teacher and students believe that muay thai “isn’t good enough” and that they “haven’t trained hard enough” in muay thai? Or is this limited to kungfu?
I think I see what you are saying. Those sporting arts that are most commonly found in the arenas, are often used by MMA people or crosstraining people and it seems to be more acceptable to them. Kungfu guys are often loud mouthed about how what they have works but dont train hard enough in that particular art to make a good showing of themselves.
This seems to me more just a matter of trends really. I thnk its ok for kungfu guys to crosstrain if they so choose. Some arts are very focused on certain aspects of fighting or ranges. Wrestling for instance is a good example of a very focused grappling art.
I will probably get a lot of heat for saying this but I would also venture to say that grappling arts slide much easier into the sport fighting, BUT proper kungfu training can adapt to it.
Anyway, let the berating begin!
I find that many people who have now witnessed MMA etc do not rate Kung Fu at all. In fact, the mere mention of ‘Kung Fu’ as a fighting art normally provokes the response of smirking and/or a rendition of the song ’ Everybody was Kung fuuu fighting…', or an ‘Achaaaaaa’ sound in a mock Bruce Lee voice. Can be very frustrating.
Frankly, I don’t see the disrespect you’re talking about. Except on the internet and/or from people with very little/no martial training. In the real world, I haven’t noticed this at all. Which is to say, no more than for other arts.
As for the “MMA scene”, a ground game is very important here, and kungfu guys don’t have it and (along with many other arts) largely haven’t adopted it. The reason for this is partly the attitude of kungfu practitioners, but just as much a function of happenstance regarding what arts/teachers formative figures in pre-MMA were exposed to. The latter is a far more interesting, and far less spoken about, topic of discussion. Really, it’s no more complex than that. It’s worth noting that kungfu practitioners have historically, and continue to fare extraordinarily well in hard contact fighting sports without ground fighting.
It’s also worth noting that, at this point, the “MMA scene” is made proportionally of people who don’t train. Not an attack on MMA, but simply a statement pretty accurate to anything that becomes popular. With this in mind, you might not want to be too concerned with what “they” say. On the other hand, their observations, and particularly the observations of some of the MMA vanguard/old boys or generally their “upper” stratum, might well be worth including in your own analysis of your training.
I have a TKD brown belt buddy, and another BJJ, Muy Tai friend. The both have respect for Kung Fu. I don’t see the disrespect.
If you are talking about these internet junkies that post all day long, you are talking about a very limited and focused audience.
Regular people don’t even know what Kung Fu is. Go out and start asking. I have not met one single person to this date, outside of these type forums, that knows what Xingyiquan or Baguazang is.
As far as real life. People are a LOT nicer and more respectful in person than on these forums. Or in thier cars for that matter! 
I think respect comes from backing up the claims made for your art. For example, Wing Chun guys go on about how efficient and practical their art is but then go on to say how it takes years of training and learning concepts and how to apply them to make it all work. There’s a disconnect between the claim and the reality.
I think if you’re looking for respect from the MMA crowd then sport is the answer. Things like sabaki challenge and shidokan give karateka a place to earn some respect and San Shou may be the place where the CMA get some respect from the MMA crowd.
If you really need to feel respected be thankful your chosen art doesn’t have the initials TKD in them.
Sanshou is boxing, wrestling and muay thai? Do you mean it is those training formats, or it is those competition formats?
Speak English man! I’m not sure what you are trying to say. I’ll take a stab at it anyway.
Sanshou has all of those elements and more. IMO the great thing about san shou is that they are combined into one art, the training is not divided. Ex. when people train Braz jj and muaythai they study 2 seperate things. they forget the middle ground and that is a huge grey area. San shou is seemless. kick punch clinch throw/ kick catch throw. kick punch takedown/ even knees are now being allowed in competitions. IMO it is the closest thing to standup MMA training that you can get. And MMA guys are taking notice. Ask Shonie Carter or Frank Shamrock. Many are now scrambling o learn more about san shou because they made the assumption that all CMA was flowery wushu (I like wushu but its not fighting!)
Sanshou was the standup art they were looking for all along. a diamond in the rough.
I think I mostly have to agree with Braden and CD Lee on this, I dont see a whole lot of the disrespect except maybe on some of these forums. The guys I know who train MMA have all the respect in the world for what I do.
Braden I posted in the wingchun forum on te idea that grappling was around while all these crazy striking arts were being created and that the loss of the ideas were through poor teaching or understanding and not lack of knowledge in the first place.
the loss of the ideas were through poor teaching or understanding and not lack of knowledge in the first place
Have to agree with you there. I’m into Korean arts and way back when in ancient Korea (1950’s - 1960’s) when these arts were being developed they all had a grappling and ground fighting component. Even TKD had them but somewhere along the way they gots lost.
Rogue, its my belief that that is pretty much true for many striking arts. I think that at some point “striking” came into vogue, it might look cooler or maybe became a sign of someone who had some phat skeewz. I believe that some of these arts still have the concepts buried in them, but until people in the TMA start taking grappling as a serious enough threat as punching or kicking, they will remain hidden.
ShaolinTiger - A competition format is a compilation of rules and setting defining a martial sport. A training format is a collection of drills and exercises. The two are quite different, but it was ambiguous as to which you were referring to.
Your response, since you discuss training methods, indicates you were speaking of the training format, at least. Though I suspect you’re not making the differentiation outlined above to begin with, which is exactly my issue with your post.
It could be that your sanshou is a combination of the training methods of boxing, wrestling, and muay thai. However, that doesn’t mean everyone else’s is. Sanshou as a term refers to a specific aspect of training which has been an integral part of most (all?) traditional chinese martial arts for hundreds of years. For instance, ‘sanshou’ is an integral component listed in official lists of the components of yiquan training - but they are not doing the same things in their ‘sanshou training’ as you are in yours. In this sense, ‘sanshou training’ is the same sort of a term as ‘weight training.’
The conclusion from this is that it is not necessarily accurate to say sanshou contains boxing, wrestling, and muay thai. Moreover, if that’s what your sanshou contains, then what you’re doing is not kungfu.
Red
I think it’s important to distinguish between grappling and groundfighting. And I think it’s also important to distinguish, in both cases, between submission and non-submission based fighting.
Defining grappling as an emphasis on controlling your opponent’s posture and balance, I would agree completely that any martial art founded in practical usage contains (contained before it was lost?) heavy doses of grappling. In fact, I’d go so far as to say I’d find it dubious anyone could apply their art against a comparable or skilled opponent without alot of training in this.
Defining submission grappling as a subset of the above that uses the control itself, or as an avenue to obtain further postural manipulations which, in themselves are attacks… I don’t think this was ever necessarily a part of every practical martial art, although the vast majority probably contained at least some training in this.
Using the same scheme, I think formal groundfighting training was, historically, reasonably rare, and submission groundfighting very rare.
Note that I don’t mean to include in groundfighting, techniques where you remain in a standing or semi-standing (eg. knees) position while your opponent is prone; nor by submission groundfighting, those submissions which are entered directly from a standing position following a takedown (eg. here you are not ‘fighting’ on the ground to win). Of course, with this kind of training, you’ll have submissions fail and people scrambling up or at one another, which I would call informal training; hence the ‘formal groundfighting’ disctinction above.
There, now is that thorough or what. ;p
The conclusion from this is that it is not necessarily accurate to say sanshou contains
boxing, wrestling, and muay thai. Moreover, if that’s what your sanshou contains, then
what you’re doing is not kungfu.
Well, this is an interesting statement. Is not San Shou a MMA ‘format’ that allows different styles such as western boxing and MT to co-exist in a competitive contest with other styles of Kung Fu?
Braden, your quesiton begs the question from ShaolinTiger - what do you mean by ‘kung fu’?
I think you have great point.