LOL! Braden, Very thorough! Do you believe that it is necessary to differentiate between the three types of “ground combat” or would you say that all three of these categories are included in anyones repertoire or would you say you seperate them because they are seperate approches?
I think I confused myself there! What I am thinking is that much of those aspects of which you speak are natural extensions of the others…
It could be that your sanshou is a combination of the training methods of boxing, wrestling, and muay thai. However, that doesn’t mean everyone else’s is.
It is not boxing, wrestling and muay thai. It is sanshou and it contains all these elements. It is not a merger of 3 arts. Understood?
Sanshou as a term refers to a specific aspect of training which has been an integral part of most (all?) traditional chinese martial arts for hundreds of years. For instance, ‘sanshou’ is an integral component listed in official lists of the components of yiquan training - but they are not doing the same things in their ‘sanshou training’ as you are in yours.
:rolleyes: These times, they are a changin… wushu used to mean kungfu but now it is is the term used to describe the sport. Same with san shou. San shou now is associated with the fighting sport. like it or not.
Moreover, if that’s what your sanshou contains, then what you’re doing is not kungfu.
10 years of Shaolin Longfist and Jow Ga kungfu, A lineage that includes Ark Yuey Wong and Dean Chin, a list of forms that could make your head spin, weapon training as varied as the horse bench to the kwan do, tea ceremonies, lion dancing, and you are going to tell me what is and isn’t kungfu… Excuse me if I die laughing.
San shou is the essence of kungfu. If you don’t have fighting spirit and the basic skills to hang on the leitai with the big boys, then you need to get back to the kwoon and figure out what you are missing. All the nerve strikes in the world won’t keep you safe if you can’t stare down a fist, supress your fear and fight back. Its not about winning or losing. Its about trying.
kungfu - great skill / great skill - great effort / great effort-great doubt.
CD Lee
The secret is in differentiating between training formats and competing formats. Two very different things that often share a name. Sanshou the competition format is exactly what you said. Sanshou the training format is not. By kungfu I mean the classical martial arts of the chinese culture.
I’m not sure if that answers your question… seems like you understood my point though. 
Red
Yes, you have to differentiate between them. They can be (but sometimes are not) very different.
All of them are grappling. But not all grappling is submission grappling, nor groundfighting; and not all groundfighting is submission groundfighting.
Technically speaking, you’re right that these different things are extentions of one another. But this is in theory, and not within the bounds of a given art. This is an important distinction. It’s true that, in the whole of reality, the knowledge of submission is an extension (although, of course, it has all sorts of it’s own knowledge) of the knowledge of basic grappling (as I’ve defined the terms). But that doesn’t mean that that is the case for any given art. For instance, some arts may choose, for the sake of tactical preference, or efficiency of training time, never to make that leap.
For example, greco-roman wrestlers spend alot of time training ‘par terre’ methods (groundfighting), but it’s not submission groundfighting. For the most part, instead of going for a postural control which is a physical attack, they’re trying to flip or throw their opponent to expose his back to the ground. In terms of technique, training, and practical application and implication - this is alot different than a submission groundfighting approach you would see in judo or BJJ.
For a ‘standup’ grappling example, take leg jamming movements to your opponent’s outside, keeping your pelvis open to him (eg. http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kosogake.gif ). If you look at the middle picture, the opponent’s structure and balance are broken - judoka call this kuzushi. What’s the point of doing this? Because it impairs the strength, reactivity, and resiliency of your opponent. Judoka use this to throw/put their opponent on the ground and to attack the joints (submission grappling), as in the case here. The kuzushi is grappling, a joint attack would be submission grappling. Why not just throw someone to the ground or lock out their elbow without this kuzushi? It doesn’t work - just watch a judo match on TV to get a lesson on this. ;p But you don’t have to go from kuzushi to a throw or submission. You can go to a bodylock which does not harm the opponent, but denies him movement (you see this alot, again, in greco roman wrestling). You can also strike. Take the middle picture of that koso gake again, and instead of continuing the movements to the third picture, have the ‘judokas’ elbow thump into the opponent’s mastoid a split-second after kuzushi is established (the arm position to do this would be a bit different, but the principle is the same). This is a common technique in baguazhang. Is it grappling? Definitely. Is it submission grappling? Nope.
ShaolinTiger
“It is not boxing, wrestling and muay thai. It is sanshou and it contains all these elements. It is not a merger of 3 arts. Understood?.”
No, actually. Are you just arguing semantics? By which I mean, I might choose to call this drink a screwdriver, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s orange juice and vodka.
Or, are you making the mistake of believing that boxing, wrestling, and muay thai refer to any techniques executed during the appropriate ‘ranges’ of a martial engagement; and thus, since you punch, you’re a boxer; and since you takedown you’re a wrestler, and so on. If this is the mistake you’re making, you’re at least consistent, since it’s again due to confounding training formats with competition formats.
What do I mean by this? By ‘confound’ I mean that a term has two or more meanings, and that you switch sporadically between the meanings in your argument, and it is this reason that your argument is incorrect. For example, in this case here, wrestling, boxing, and muay thai (like sanshou) can all refer to two different things: certain training formats and certain competition formats. To elaborate since you still don’t seem to understand what I mean - I can train for three years in a northern preying mantis school, then enter a muay thai competition and say I’m doing muay thai. You can train in muay thai for three years and never enter a competition and say you are doing muay thai. Even though we are both using the same words, we are meaning very different things. This is exactly what I mean, and exactly what you’ve been confounding. Continuing with the above example, you say that sanshou contains all of boxing, wrestling, and muay thai. By this, you must mean the competition formats of all these terms. But you have concluded from this that sanshou is therefore the standup art they were looking for all along; but here you are referring to training formats. You switched meanings, you confounded. This isn’t just a logic lesson. If you had not confounded (ie. if you were logically consistent), you would have meant, ‘it is the standup competition format they have been looking for.’ But, although this is logically consistent, it isn’t true. They allready have the competition format they were looking for, and they like it better than sanshou. Not a logic lesson, but an explanation as to why I think your entire meaning, even broadly interpreted, is entirely incorrect.
“wushu used to mean kungfu but now it is is the term used to describe the sport. Same with san shou. San shou now is associated with the fighting sport. like it or not.”
I’m not sure why any of this was addressed to me, nor what relation it has to the passage it seems to respond to.
“10 years of Shaolin Longfist…and you are going to tell me what is and isn’t kungfu”
No, I’m going to tell you, exactly as I said, that if you’re doing muay thai + boxing + wrestling, then you’re not doing kungfu. I’m not sure where the ambiguity was, but I apologize for the confusion.
“San shou is the essence of kungfu…”
Again, not sure why this was addressed to me, nor what relation it has to anything I said.
I see your point. I dont want to argue too much about the state of grappling or groundfighting in ancient china since I am by no means an expert but I would be curious to do some research and find out!
Got to agree with Branden here.
San Shou is a format not a style. Many people quote their choosen competition format in the title of their style (i.e san Shou) but this does ot make it difinitive.
Kind of like Kick boxing back in the day when krate and kung fu were competeing against each other in it. Eventialy some guys started training just for competitions and started to call them selfs “kick boxing” or “free style”
As history tells us, the format will mold the style to its form.
ex. judoka have become geared towards the throw as newaza time is limited.
kickboxing is a style of its own after it shed many of the traditional trappings and favored better western boxing.
You won’t win a san shou tournament by studying wing chun. It just wont happen. You will not be prepared. (again this isn’t about win/lose but what you bring to the game)
Ask any of the top san shou teams if san shou is a style or just the rules. It is a very effective stand up style and it should be recognized.
The tape I saw of San Shou training in China, looked like a mix of Traditional Chinese training methods (arm swings, stretching, throw practice, etc) with Western sportfighting training methids. When they punched and kicked in sparring, it looked a little different from the mechanics used in say, western boxing. I saw more use of torque, to be honest. But their mechanics were clearly influenced by some sportfighting styles, while retaining some CMA flavor. So the Chinese San Shou practice is both clearly distinct from, yet clearly influenced by-- Western Boxing, Wrestling, Muy Thai, and TKD. I think SanShou is more of a format than anything else, like JKD. Here’s how I envision the training going: Line up the students - ok, jab! And every one can do the jab from their base style. Here, hit this bag - and everyone can do the strikes from their base style. Now, shadowbox! Some do a form, some punch into the air. Now, warmup - some jump rope, some do torso-stretching arm swings. Anyway, if your talking sportfighting, it is going to be hard to come up with a seriously different system of sportfighting based on TMA, that’s going to clearly beat styles that are BORN of sport. I think you can equal these but you won’t surpass them. In other words, if sportfighting is your only goal, I think you are JUST as well off studying styles born of sport as styles born of the battlefield or street.
ShaolinTiger00 - so those ten years of Kung Fu, do you regret them? Wish you spent more time on sportfighting styles? Or did you reach the same level of ability that you would have, regardless? I’m betting it’s the latter (but please answer the question!) Do you still do warmups, use principles, use mechanics of your Kung Fu practice, including in the SanShou comps? Or have you thrown it ALL out the window in favor of Western Bxoing?
ShaolinTiger
“As history tells us, the format will mold the style to its form.”
Really? Compare and consider what Ma Xianda has to say on the topic:
"For example, in 1999, there was a fight in Hawaii (China vs. U.S.A. Art of War) where my son was a referee. It was not so good. I criticized our sanda in front of the top leaders. Our sanda looked like yin yang ren (yin and yang mixed up in one body) because the sanda technique there did not contain Wushu. It only had some western boxing, and even the boxing was not that good. I was one of the first Chinese to train boxing under a western expert and I was a world champion. The kicks didn’t look like Chinese kicks. Chinese martial arts have beautiful kicks but nobody there could do them. It’s just like wearing traditional Chinese attire with a western mustache. You look “in between.” You can’t tell the difference between a sanda strike, Korean, Thai, or Japanese.
I was the first sanda champion in 1952. I was only 19. They only had three divisions - lightweight 54 kilos, middleweight 54- 80 kilos, heavyweight 80+ kilos. I was a middleweight. In that time, Shaolin, Wudang, Xingyi, Bagua, everyone came out to fight. But you could tell which system they belong too. Now in sanda, you cannot tell. No character. Even in boxing, you can tell the different styles, British from American. Now no one takes the time to learn basic Wushu. The problem is that basic Wushu training is too weak. Nobody bothers to study what is Chinese sanda or what is Wushu."
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=244
do you regret them? Wish you spent more time on sportfighting styles?
NO ! I had the wonderful opporitunity to learn them all together. My sifu provided me with the most well rounded program of CMA that I could imagine. I’ve run the gambit. Thats what the CMA experience is all about. Any kickboxer can fight full contact, a kungfu man can fight, forms, weapons, internal etc.
I did pure traditional Jow Ga for the first 3 years. I had no idea about san shou or even much about fighting or other MA period. I just knew that I loved what I did and I was becomming stronger, more agile and began to explore philosophy and human nature as well as the rich background of kungfu and Shaolin. As I was becoming more educated in fighting I knew that my sifu did not train full contact fighters and I respectfully asked him whom I should see about fighting (I was also moving north) He directed me to an excellent sifu (an amazing human being) who fought full contact, trained full contact, practiced qigong/taiji and still did traditional forms.
Or did you reach the same level of ability that you would have, regardless? I’m betting it’s the latter (but please answer the question!)
I don’t think about that. Who knows? Was I mentally ready to start fighting full contact earlier? My heart wasn’t there. Where you’re at is where you’re at.
Do you still do warmups, use principles, use mechanics of your Kung Fu practice, including in the SanShou comps? Or have you thrown it ALL out the window in favor of Western Bxoing?
I practice them everyday. I’m still able to kick above my head and remember many forms. I’ve infected the judo dojo with some of my methods for stretching the legs and knees and shoulders in ways they had never saw. Then again they’ve shown me some things!
One of the best things about kungfu is that it builds amazing speed and agility! Of course I used it, Its all I’ve ever known. There was no “this is a “boxing” jab, this is a kungfu hook” it was all just fighting. One of my fav “clever” techniques is a powerful double sweep Iron Broom straight out of N. Shaolin(the front legs kicks in hard and low like a roundkick at the ankles, once turned sideways keep spinning in same irection but your level drops very low as rear leg spins thru the target) Its a high risk move though. I’ve gained big and I’ve lost big when attempting it. thats fighting..
fa jing - i truly love kungfu.
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]
You won’t win a san shou tournament by studying wing chun. It just wont happen.
[/B]
Correction, there was a guy a while back that posted that his kung fu brother won a san shou match using wing chun.
It doens’t mater really, it’s more about experience. Of course no one who has never sparred before can go into a ring and win. It just isn’t possible.
What good will fighting about styles do? Nothing. Over the years, in my experience, I have learned that it’s how much you work at it and how much experience you really have. Styles aren’t superior jsut different.
Take my example. When I started out in kung fu I heard that a boxer who has spent little time in boxing can surely beat a kung fu guy who’se done it for a considerable abmount of time. Well about a little over a year in training i beat a boxer in sparring. Ok granted he wasn’t good but he he must have at least done it longer than I have. The second time I sparred another boxer I got beat but that’s life.
Now getting into the main topic… what they meant is that if you use western techniques and call it a cma then it’s not a cma regardless of what you say.
Hey I’m not knocking san shou but it sure as heck doesn’t use chinese fighting methods.
Correction, there was a guy a while back that posted that his kung fu brother won a san shou match using wing chun.
I didn’t say he couldn’t win A match.
I said he would not win a tournament
every dog gets one lucky day. good dogs get 2.
and no disrespect but you give me 10 boxers and 10 traditional guys and the boxers will win 9 of 10. Boxers are better fighters because they fight like they train, hard and often.
let’s make a deal…
you guys pay for my bills, food, etc. etc. so i can train 6-8 hrs a day and i’ll go fight in the ufc. not much to do with the thread, but it was an idea i just had.
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
[B]do you regret them? Wish you spent more time on sportfighting styles?
NO ! I had the wonderful opporitunity to learn them all together.
{…}
fa jing - i truly love kungfu. [/B]
Your whole reply was quite enjoyable and well written.
'Nuff said! Just asked so that people could see in your posts what I was already seeing. Since everyone sees what they want to see…
Wow… more of the myth of the non-competitive TMAist.
TSN has been showing clips of the northern preying mantis guy who took middle heavyweight at the last Clash of the Titans. Tim Cartmell put up free mpegs right on the internet of his neijia-trained men taking out MMAists (unanimously?) at his invitational. Mike Patterson’s xingyi fighters have years of top-ranking tourney experience against muay thai-ists, all documented on his webpage. There’s clips and photos of Su Yu Chang’s northern preying mantis disciple taking heavyweight muay thai belt in thailand a couple years in a row… What’s it gonna take guys?
Braden don’t misconstrue my words.
Competitive fighters win. Most traditional MA don’t compete full contact.
So you’re saying the good fighter is going to win, regardless of style? 
lol calm down dude I did say a match. I was gonna bold it the first time but I thought that would have come acrross as rude.
I know what you mean.
ShaolinTiger00 wrote…
Put those three sports together and you have Chinese
San Shou, which has been beating muay thai fighters at their own sport in recent competitions
Oh really…
The last time Thailand (Muay Thai) vs. China (San Shou) tournament happened on December 5, 2001 in Bangkok, Thailand and the results of the fights ended up to be opposed to your statement. A few months before this tournament, a team of Thai fighters (5) went to China and the Thai’s lost on controversial decisions expect one, which ended with a Thai fighter knocking out a San Shou fighter, all the fights were under San Shou rules. Now a few months later on December 5, 2001 this new tournament was on Thai soil and the results were devastating towards Chinese San Shou. A team of 5 San Shou fighters went to this tournament and 4 lost due of KO’s by the Muay Thai fighters, and the only Chinese victory came by decision, also just like in China all the fightes were under San Shou rules.
Oh really… YEAH REALLY
so far, result of series has been
September 7, 2002
China 6/Thailand 1
May 4, 2002
China 6/Thailand 1
December 10 ,2001
Thailand 5/China 2
December 5, 2001
Thailand 4/China 1
September 23, 2001
China 5/Thailand 2
September 8, 2001
China 4/Thailand 3
little know fact: Thai boxers suck at math. Sanda beats Thai 4/2
Thank you sifu Ross, for keeping the kickboxing community well informed.
Isn’t it amazing how no one’s ever seen Thai_Kick and Clark Kent in one room together? Yet, no one’s made the connection. Thai_Kick is really Clark Kent!!!
