Are the people who practice and focus on San Shou competitions practicing Kung Fu?
I ask the question because it’s been made clear that success for tournaments of any kind require intense focus on the rules of those tournaments, to the exclusion of other types of techniques and training–you get good at what you train for, in other words.
Can a San Shou competitor claim to be doing Kung Fu?
Well, it comes from china, requires hundreds of hours of intense training, and can be used in a myriad of ways (many effective self defense techniques, character building intensity, etc).
I’d vote yes.
dsf
I say its kung-fu too.
kung fu=skill acquired through time and lots of practise, so yes 
But again it depends what you mean…
david
I train both… I will admit that some of my koushu translate bady in the ring… but that is because I don’t train my kuoshu techniques like I do my boxing… due to gloves some grabs are rendered useless but the fundementals are still there… footwork is still there(or should be) concepts still there… for instance my style teaches attacking on angles thru sidestepping… that wont have a problem in the ring if u drill it for the ring(which i need to work on)… some of the ‘softer’ ways of blocking that i am taught(hooking the leg etc) translates well… it may not look like Mei Hua Chuan but i think its Kung Fu…
it wont work if you don’t work on it…
denzhen2001—
let’s use it in the ‘common’ application of Kung Fu being more or less equivalent to Chinese Martial Arts.
Let’s ask a better question in case we get the Kung Fu is a system and San Shou a competition format–Does San Shou demonstrate that CMA produces competent fighters? (ie, that they can fight, and fight well?)
This question always confuses me.
Sanshou is a competition format; something you compete in. Kungfu is one of many training systems; something you train in. They are different categories of things, so inclusionary and exclusionary statements about them don’t make any sense.
MP, no problem The answer is still yes for me. It’s something created in China and exported all over. It’s a ring sport and a combat skill.
I think Kung Fu has many faces and enough diversity for everyone to enjoy [edit: San Shou being one of them]
david
Braden–I appreciate your point, and edited my comments while you were posting… sorry.
But, let’s phrase it thusly–can somebody who trains for San Shou–more or less only for that–be considered to be doing Kung Fu?
Well I am going to disagree with every one here and say no they are not doing kung fu.
1/ You need to play to the rules to win.
2/ You wear golves…I do not care what anyone says once you put gloves on you hit like a boxer. It also stops any real grabing or palm strikes.
3/ Most pro guys (from what I read) in san shou are not even from kung fu.
Also lots of the chinese pro guys are not kung fu but are taking parts from other non chinese styles such as boxing and TKD.
I read a break down on some top Chinese san shou guys and they all did boxing TKD for kicks and mongolian wrestling for throws!!! I think this is because they are fast tracked and its quicker than spending 5 years learning mantis.
In all my san shou fights I can not think of one other guy I fought who would have called him self a traditional kung fu guy!!!
Many called there style freestyle kung fu some were just thai boxers some were just kick boxers and (sadly) now some guys are starting to train in san shou as a style rather than a format!!!
I can only think of 1 guy I ever saw take a traditional Kung fu stance on the lei tai (I know his teacher but I can not remember his style). He (a tall think guy fighting a stocky kick boxer) stood in his same stiff stance with a fruriouse look on his face as he got knocked over repeatedly by the kick boxer!!! A brave guy but not a fast learner.
Haveing said all that I belive that there is a lot to be gained from both training for san shou and competeing in it. It is also huge fun and as long as you know what you are getting into can provide a huge confidance boost to your training …going up against thai boxers,kick boxers,other kung fu guys and if not winning then at least not getting knocked out.
as far as the san shou movement in the US… I think san shou proves that the US can produce competant fighter under sportive “KUNG FU” rules(but i’m just thinking about it on a larger scale here)… as for how many come from and train ‘traditionally,’ I don’t think many but I could be wrong…
actually San Shou is modern wu shu, so i should say “wu shu” rules:rolleyes: 
… and why isn’t it gonna be in the olympics??? but thats another thread…
Edit- just read the previous reply - and I stand in my ‘traditional fighting stance’ especially when I get tired:D
I wasn’t specifically looking for the US, but good point SunTzu.
It depends what they’re doing.
It’s like if you ask “Can someone who’s eating ice cream be eating dessert?” Ice cream and dessert are not the same categories of things, so you can’t make the above a question about equivalency. You have to know more about the ‘person’ than the fact he’s eating ice cream to answer the question. Dessert is what you call when you eat a sweet foodstuff as the ending course of a multi-course meal in the evening; if we follow convention anyway. If someone’s eating ice cream as a snack in between classes, they’re not eating dessert. If they’re eating ice cream as a sweet foodstuff as the ending course of a multi-course meal, they are. In other words, whether or not eating ice cream happens to be eating dessert depends entirely upon whether or not the person happens to be fulfilling the requirements for ‘eating dessert’; in other, other words, the only information the question explicitly supplies (that ice cream is being eaten) turns out not to contribute whatsoever to any meaningfull answer.
Sub ‘sanshou’ for ‘ice cream’ and ‘kungfu’ for ‘dessert.’
Or, simply, whether or not someone training entirely for sanshou is doing kungfu is dependent entirely upon whether or not the methods that constitute their training happen to be kungfu [def: one of many systems of training methods]. (So, the sanshou part of it contributes nothing to the meaningfullness of the statement, and once you remove it, you can a simple statement of equivalency).
If someone is mixing and matching training methods; say for example they circlewalk and do a hubud lubud - do we say they’re training in bagua or kali? Provided they spend enough time in each ‘art’ in question, and cover at least the fundamentals, I think everyone would be happy saying they practice both/all of them.
Interesting, but i think this comes down to words and the meaning they have for you.
Kung Fu can mean many things: Skill developed through hardship and time, a general blanket name for all types of chinese martial arts, ‘traditional CMA’ as oppose to ‘Wushu’… all of the above, none of the above…
It’s like asking is Muay Thai like traditional Thai MA? (Krabee Krabong i think???). I’m sure there are a lot of differences, even though it may have come from that source. For a start MT doesn’t trian in things like swords, sword and shield… no headbutts (as far as i know, correct me if i’m wrong) etc.
For me, is it Traditional CMA?: Nope. Is it CMA?: Yup. Does it produce good fighters?: Yup. Does it show that CMA produces competent fighters?: Yup, in some respects. Does it bother me what others think?: Nope 
david
Well? (answering questions with questions)
What is Kung Fu supposed to look like? Doesn’t kung fu include kicking, striking and throwing? Does KF really need to look like a run run shaw film? You can’t transfer ability, footwork and movement to san shou? Does it really matter that you strike with a punch rather than “tiger claw”? Is it not still a strike?
a kick is a kick, a punch is a punch, a throw is a throw… as my coach once told me ‘if it works use it’… if a judo teacher can teach you throws why not??? If a TKD guy/gal can help you with the kicks, why not, etc. Is it really that important that it be ‘kung fu’??? anyway in the comming years san shou will be its own style… you’ll go to a gym and they’ll teach Mantis, Wing Chun and san shou… oh, they already do that…
DAGONIT… sifu said it first…:mad:
Braden–
But Ice Cream is commonly a dessert food–if we follow convention, anyway. This is why people use phrases like “yeah, I had dessert for breakfast.”
It doesn’t tell them if they are eating a dessert COURSE, but it does tell them if they are eating a dessert FOOD.
Similarly, is a person practicing more or less FOR San Shou comps eating a “Kung Fu Food?” OR are they eating “Some other kind of Food?”
Secondly if you don’t like the comparison based on an apples and oranges sort of reason, then what about the addendum–Does San Shou demonstrate that CMA produces competant fighters?
Just to amend my post I can now think of 1 tradtional chinese guy that I have fought in san shou…He beat me to. He was a Wing Chun guy and he just kept ducking rushing in and grabing me just above the waist then pushing me off the lei tai…thats n ot what I call wing chun!!
I still say that most guys doing san shou are not from kung fu. Cung le , Marvin Perry are the most obviouse 2
Also Braden san shou is becoming a style in the same way that semi contact karate/kung fu became freestyle karare.
Their are lots of places that will teach you somthing called san shou in America (again Cung Le) and 2 weekends ago I fought this guy (and beat him in straight rounds LOL) who when I asked him his style told me san da!!! Thats the first one i have met in the UK and its somthing I find depressing.
I think that this will go the same way as wu shu dancing where trad guys can no longer compete… The guys who only train in san shou will have the training and the rules so well stitched up that trad guys who train in the whole system will no longer be able to compete!!!
Does San Shou demonstrate that CMA produces competant fighters?
if the san shou fighter is from CMA, than yes it proves the CMA produces good fighters… just like if the fighter if from TKD than it shows that TKD produces good fighters…
… and its not nessesarily a bad thing that its becoming its own style… san shou is san shou just like kickboxing was karate or whatever now its just kickboxing…
The guys who only train in san shou will have the training and the rules so well stitched up that trad guys who train in the whole system will no longer be able to compete!!!
than they should train san shou if they wanna compete… just like if a san shou guy wants ta compete in forms than he should train his forms…