Are San Shou competitors practicing REAL Kung Fu?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

Use an analogy that works better then. Like ‘wooden posts’ for kungfu and ‘being black’ for sanshou.

Does what about sanshou show CMAs produce good fighters? It’s existance? No. That someone who does well in sanshou does well in another contest? No. That the best sanshou guy is a good fighter? No. That the average sanshou guy is a good fighter? No. Why? Because we don’t know simply from ‘sanshou’ that the person happens to practice a CMA. As has been pointed out, alot of sanshou people actually happen to train in kickboxing, wrestling, and boxing.

What if a high school wrestler decides he’s really into MAs when he graduates; starts taking boxing lessons and attending a university wrestling club. A few years later he decides he wants to compete, looks around, and decides sanshou is the venue for him. He really works hard boxing and wrestling to prepare himself for this venue, then he starts competing. Some people would have you believe he is a kungfu man, which is clearly ridiculous.

Conversely, take someone graduates high school having never done a martial art. He decides he wants to take one up, and finds a seven star preying mantis school he really likes, and trains there for three years, then decides he wants to compete in sanshou. He works really hard in his mantis class to prepare, and then starts competing. Some people would have you believe he is not a kungfu man, which is clearly ridiculous.

What if we take this same guy, you might ask, only he doesn’t join the preying mantis school, he joins some class called ‘sanshou.’ Well, what do we say about him? We would say the same thing about him as if he took a class called ‘martial arts,’ which is to say it would depend entirely on what he was learning.

Traditionally speaking, sanshou is a term used for a generic training method used to achieve skill as part of most (all?) traditional chinese martial arts - basically equivalent to the term ‘sparring’ in english. Eventually, someone had the idea to get different fighters from far away to fight one another, and charge people to watch; and just like the people who got this idea here called it ‘fighting championship’, over there they ended up calling it ‘sanshou.’ The specific rules and culture caught on over here, and kept the same name, and now we have all this confusion.

Some people/school/classes call themselves ‘sanshou.’ In my mind, this is very similar to some people/school/classes calling themselves ‘MMA’ - in both cases it’s a label that arose to describe someone training with a specific tournament format in mind (yeah yeah I know the objection allready; spare me for sake of discussion ;p ). Is it right to say that an MMAist is a wrestler? Well, it very well might be. And on the other hand, sometimes it’s not. Same deal with sanshou and kungfu.

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Check your PM’s Braden :slight_smile:

Although I still disagree somewhat with your issue that they are these completely seperate entities. The fact is, they are intertwined, in the same way that Sport BJJ and Vale Tudo are intertwined. Exactly the same? Nope, but related and intertwined to some degree? Yup.

I’d REALLY like to avoid the semantics argument–you’ve made it abundantly clear that a CMA stylist COMPETES in San Shou, and that you do not think they are necessarily the same thing.

There’s no need to argue about the nature of the analogy since we both understand each others points. Namely, that you see them as totally seperate entities–one a system, and one a venue, whereas I see them as being somewhat intertwined–not indistinguishable, but bearing more relationship to each other than you will give them.

23

Braden

Does this apply for other venues as well. Is boxing a style or is it just a competition for people that punch. How about Muay Thai, anybody can compete in the ring; is it just a competion for strikers?

24

Ok looking at it from another totaly differant point of veiw.

A guy who is very good at wing chun and who can fight very well in the street may well suck at san shou as he wears gloves and can only is constrained by the (at times really stupid) rules

Now a guy with minimal training but who is fit and agresive and whom understands the rules may well have a better chance than that wing chun guy.
this same guy would probably get his arse kicked by the wing chun guy in the street.

I feel that san shou is still very young (in the form we are talking about) and has a long way to go.

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feel that san shou is still very young (in the form we are talking about) and has a long way to go.

like what???

26

AA - So long as it’s not required for people training in the art to compete in the venue, and it’s not required for people competing in the venue to train in the art - yes.

If a pure Muay Thai’er decided he would benefit from hard competition work on his hand techniques and started entering boxing tournaments, you wouldn’t say he trained in boxing. And if an american kickboxer decided he wanted to explore in formal competition how well he could keep people from clinching and infighting, so started competing in Muay Thai, you wouldn’t say he trained in Muay Thai.

Unless, I guess, if you thought the act of training in a competition with such rules was sufficient standards for being a practitioner of the art - just like I mentioned above in the case of someone practicing kali and bagua; it would make sense to say they do both provided they spend sufficient time on sufficiently fundamental stuff. So if you think stepping into a boxing ring is sufficiently fundamental stuff to be considered a boxer, then the whole argument makes perfect sense - call them a boxer.

Bringing it back to the topic at hand - stepping into a sanshou ring is most certainly not sufficient standards to call yourself a practitioner of any TCMA I’m familiar with, though.

27

MP, I think that San Shou and Kung Fu are two seperate entities. Sure, if you want to use the literal translation of the word, any martial skill that takes lots of hard work could be considered Kung Fu, even BJJ. However, that is not what I think you mean. San Shou is a sport that is sanctioned with Chinese rules. From what I have read, and if I am wrong I stand corrected, any style practitioner can participate in San Shou. Aren’t some of the competitors from Muay Thai? I think since it is sanctioned by the Chinese, it gets labeled as Kung Fu. Plus I’m sure most of its practitioners have a background in traditional Kung Fu. The rules are what makes it San Shou, not the techniques per se. Anyway, just my two cents for what thats worth. Good topic by the way.

28

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Let’s ask a better question in case we get the Kung Fu is a system and San Shou a competition format–Does San Shou demonstrate that CMA produces competent fighters? (ie, that they can fight, and fight well?)

Let’s ask a better question in case we get the BJJ is a system and NHB a competition format–Does NHB demonstrate that BJJ produces competent fighters? (ie, that they can fight, and fight well?)

Maybe, but not necesarily

29

Water–don’t be touchy–I happen to agree with you.

I always take the sting out of your statements :smiley: As you once mentioned, I’m no fun!

30

…you see them as totally seperate entities–one a system, and one a venue

I agree with this.

Let’s face it, we tend not to separate the person from the style from the competition venue – because we want to say “person x, trains in style y, therefore they will win/lose in venue z”.

This type of discussion may have some relevance when talking among two friends about specific examples that both are knowledgible about… but the greater level of abstraction more more we have to keep in mind the real distinctions to be made between the person, the training, and the competition venue.

-crumble

31

Oh my god, the things said in this thread, I guess ignorance does’t stop people from having opinions.

Yeah, boxers, Thai boxers, kickboxers and wrestlers can and do compete in San Shou events, they almost always loose to people trained in REAL San Shou. Marvin Perry is pure San Shou and from Kung Fu originally, trained in long fist with Yang Jwing Ming and then with Jason Yee in pure San Shou fighting. Cung Le did OK with his wrestling and TKD until he had to play with the big boys, then he trained with Chinese national team to learn real San Shou.

punching, kicking, throwing, kick catching are all techniques found in tradtitional Chinese martial arts and I guarantee you when you see high level san shou you see throws and catches you can not see outside of CMA. Kung Fu isn’t about tiger claws or blowing up chickens at 30 yards with Chi blasts. Never has been.

People who complain about the gloves usually couldn’t beat a San Shou fighter if they took off the gloves anyway. Mike Altman only won one national title in San Shou yet won like five Kuoshu events. He completely outclasses the so called “traditional” guys

If you think San Shou fighters can only fight in the San Shou format you haven’t seen San Shou fighters beat Muay Thai fighters under their rules or my team fight shootfighting or submission wrestling even. San Shou is about the quickest and most realistic road to acquiring skill in basic fighting techniques

32

Suntzu

When I said It has a long way to go I mean that rules need to be clarified and set and agreed upon. I use a new set of rules every time I fight!!

Also people (in the UK at least) need to think about what they are doing before they fight san shou.
I have seen to mjany guys who did not have the stamina for it run out of steam by the end of the first round. I am also tired of the guys who come into it from a semi contact back ground clearly never haveing done any full contact before.

(not sure if all this applise out side the UK)

33

lkfmdc–

Great post–but is San Shou, Kung Fu? That is, if you train San Shou, are you training Kung Fu?

I am not challenging that it is or isn’t. I just want to know what you think.

34

Mike Altman only won one national title in San Shou yet won like five Kuoshu events. He completely outclasses the so called “traditional” guys

I think that has more to do with training methods… most ‘traditional’ schools(IMO) shun modern training methods… weight training etc… so that might have something to do with him ‘outclassing’ ‘traditional’ fighters… not to take anything away from Mike, he’s a cool guy… also i could be dead wrong…

Liokault - so far I’ve been lucky enuff to fight with the same rule but I’m also relativly new so it might happen soon… I was just tryin to start a convo on how to improve san shou…and the running out of steam thing I’ve seen and admittedly done… but I think that some people just didn’t know what to expect but that should be remidied after theyre first few fights… I know I’m hittin the track more now… but that’s just an individual issue not really an issue with san shou as an organization so to speak…

35

Depends on what you mean by “Kung Fu”

Is Kung Fu training in silk PJ’s, believing practicing forms is the real way to train, disdaining from heavy bag and equipment work, thinking the new technique in the next form will make you deadly and bloxing up chickens with Chi blasts? Is so, thank god that san Shou is not kung fu

Is Kung Fu Chinese martial art with Chinese fighting theory? If so then yes, San Shou is Kung Fu. People compare us to Thai boxing, but note that Side kick is a huge part of San Shou and barely exists at all in Thai. The strategy, footwork and thinking is different.

Also, different san shou schools have different theory just like “traditional” arts…

36

Merry, I think you misinterpreted my post. There’s a big Can-O-Worms implied there such as:

  1. Can “pure” BJJ win in NHB? If so, how do you define “pure”.
  2. If you must mix another art to competein NHB, does that make BJJ inefficient?
  3. Because the Gracie’s won the UFC in the early 90’s, does that imply that BJJ practitioners are riding on the coattails of old war stories or legends?
  4. What “style” of BJJ are we referring to here? (emphasis on BJJ comp, NHB, street defense?
  5. Is there a difference between BJJ taught w/ Gracie Self Defense techniques and pure sport-oriented rolling? Is one “real” BJJ and the other not?

I think you see what I’m getting at. If you substitute the term “All Arts That Compete in NHB” for Gong Fu and NHB for San Shou, you get a truere perception of the question you asked.

37

YOU MISS THE POINT ENTIRELY THEN!

San Shou is about the training method. Do you come in, dress up and spend most of your time doing forms? Or do you come in, dress however you feel, spend most of you time making contact with solid objects and working with partners?

Teh difference between san Shou and so called traditional is that now most “traditional” kung fu talks a lot about fighting but never does it. San Shou fights all the time

38

Is Kung Fu training in silk PJ’s, believing practicing forms is the real way to train, disdaining from heavy bag and equipment work, thinking the new technique in the next form will make you deadly

good point… and I think that is the biggest issue with ‘kung fu’… too many student think that there techniques will work and not enuff KNOW which ones will…

Teh difference between san Shou and so called traditional is that now most “traditional” kung fu talks a lot about fighting but never does it. San Shou fights all the time

and i agree…I was making the distinction that Mike outclassed them because he traind the way he did not just because it san shou(not that that’s what you meant) but by the way he trained… if he was a muy thai guy he would maybe still have outclassed him… because of the way they train… just steering it away from style vs style… and it also doesn’t mean that traditional techniques are worthless… just the way they train those techniques…

now I must go to the gym…

Is a NY team going to Born to Fight???

39

lkfmdc - Re: “Is kung fu silk pjs”

I think you stumbled over yourself trying to make this point. We all know very well what kungfu is - it’s a term to describe traditional chinese martial arts. There’s relatively no ambiguity here. I study baguazhang. Historical records show it was founded by one Dong Hai Chuan in the 1800s (can get actual date and place if you want). They show where he got the methods, and what he did with them, and who he handed them on to (can get actual dates and places for this too). And so on, all the way down to even little old me (ditto here). There is absolutely no question about what kungfu is, and there is absolutely no question that bagua qualifies.

Is this true of sanshou? Everything I’ve learnt suggests no.

As far as traditional stylists not knowing how to fight; I believe you have had some experience with bagua stylists, so perhaps it was a choice example for me to use here.

40

lkfmdc

“Teh difference between san Shou and so called traditional is that now most “traditional” kung fu talks a lot about fighting but never does it. San Shou fights all the time”

I think thats a huge sterio type…Like saying Wushu dancers are really doing Kung fu and CAN fight.

I count my self as a traditional CMA guy but from day 1 I have been asked to hit things hard- In 13 years or so of training with the same teacher he has never asked me to hit into the air EVER.

Also out of a 2 1/2 hour class the only time we work with out a partner is 20 mins or so of hand form at the end!!

Do not confuse Wushu dancing with CMA.

Also I read a bio on Cung Le and it went on at length about his wrestling his TKD his boxing coach but very very little about his kung fu.

Also I have been reading about Marvin Perry (who looks much better than Cung in the videos) and it talks at great length about his Thai boxing!!