Ok not quite San Shou, there are no points for strikes, only for going down or out of the area.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8699108735950649955&q=old+guy+fighting&pl=true
I know nothing about the two fighters, except the young guy is 96kg and I think they both do TCC.
If your nice I will post the fight where I get my nose broken by an elbow…but I have not uploaded it yet.
The clip is from the recent 2006 festaval of CMA in Oxford by Dan Docherty.
Okay, I like this clip - I see some decent strikes and kicks landing. But going to green cloud’s comments in the cung le thread - can you look at these two guys and tell they do tcc? their footwork doesn’t look unique to me and their striking looks like the standard strikes you see in any style. If it weren’t for what they were wearing, I wouldn’t have even guessed they were kung fu guys. However, when I trained CMA, we looked the same way when we fought.
so where is the kung fu uniqueness?
What were the rules on elbows knees and strikes to the groin?
The tall guy never looked like anything but a breathing punching bag.
My theory is that this IS what ‘kung fu’ looks like. I mostly base this on the fact that there is not much evidence of kung fu, in practice, looking like much else.
No knees, no elbows no groin shots.
Its basicaly san shou rules, but no points for strikes.
It’s hard to argue with your logic. Why all the different style and emphasis on differing principles if it all looks like this?
I feel the same way.
As I’ve said before, if you’re going to perform well in a competitive format then you adapt to the format. It’s somewhat difficult do demonstrate the subtle internal aspects of the crane with 12oz gloves on and a no elbow rule.
Kung Fu is predominantly about making and exploiting bridges, which is all but impossible with boxing gloves on, and if you can’t stamp, knee etc then full longarm footwork becomes less useful. San Shou is a skill in and of itself, and not an easy one either. I would like to think that my San Shou students have a chinese flavour to what they do, but at the end of the day kickboxing is kickboxing.
I actually fought in that event 5 years ago 
I’m thinking of using it as a place to blood my guys for San Shou, as it’s low key and local.
Isolationism and Xenophobia. Every little village has a style, but they won’t show it to the other villages, so nothing ever gets weeded out.
Hey seven star the fact is these guys were ok, but not great. The white guy should not have even been in the ring. It’s hard to say what style those guys do, but one things for sure you can’t judge a book by its cover. Just because they had on kung fu uniforms doesn’t mean they know kung fu or that they are even good at kung fu.
One thing is for sure real kung fu guys that can actualy use there stuff in the ring are very rare. As for judging Kung fu’s effectivenes It is hard for the average guy to understand it. Like little school boys everyone gathers around The bube tube and talks about the effectivenes of the styles in the ufc. You know just like when you guys were kids when you watch wwf wrestling, swearing that wwf was the end all beat all.
Seven star I understand why you would think that kung fu is useless since you havent seen too much of it on TV. Well the fact is like Ross said the UFC(tv) is not the real world.
The fact is Kung fu is not main stream. Real kung fu still is a very esoteric style and very few student’s ever get a chance to see the real thing. It takes years to get to the point where any true master will trust a student with the sectets. That’s why you don’t see much of it in the UFC.
Kung fu is not main stream we are the one percenters of the martial arts population. For instance On Long Island where I live there are only 5 to 6 traditional kung fu schools as opposed to the 300 some od karate, jiu jitsu and kempo school.
Just do the math seven star, that and the fact that the traditional kung fu people of very influenced by the old ways and would rather keep to them selves. That’s a fact. Now you might say hey, why don’t you guys try to change that? The fact is there are to few guys like me that are trying to popularize kung fu but it’s hard to do when you are fighting comercializm. It seems that most schools now a days follow the popular trends and TV is to blame.
But realy if you are trying to judge kung fu by what you seen on TV well then I guess you are like the masses. you’r influenced by what you see on TV
It’s not about judging. it’s about you, really. and several others out there. I’ve seen kung fu effectiveness - but it seems really few and far between. TMA is my background. However, that’s not the point. You keep referring to real kung fu guys. Where are they?
please stop making assumptions and just answer the question.
As far as TV being to blame, that should help you guys, to an extent. You see kung fu in the movies and on tv all the time. Good or bad, you get a lot of exposure. you rarely see tkd on tv, yet it is one of the most widely practiced styles in the world. Same with judo.
I am for real
You are avoiding my point, Kung fu is effective but not main steam. You don’t see a lot of it since it’s not main steam, I asked you to do the math. As far as Tae kwon do and judo are concerned there is just of hand full of schools in my area that is why I didn’t mention them, pay attention.
Make a long story short, even reality shows on TV are not real life. If you are measuring what is affective by what you see on TV than you are not being realistic.
Here is reality the majority of people do not have the time or lack of brains to compete in these events, most of us have 9 to 5 jobs. Becoming the Ultimate fighting Champion is not realistic.
Unless you your self live this kind of life style as a warior this is not a realistic mode of MA training. You should know this since what you do for a living is not MMA full contact.
Most of what you see on TV are well conditioned athletes that spend 6 to 8 hours a day training because it,s their job. When it come to the average guy who is not a stacked muscle bound steroid monster that guy needs to have an edge over the guy that’s going to take his head off. That’s where Kung Fu is very effective, it’s for the street and it gives us the edge over the big guy.
Kung Fu has shown it’s effective in the ring. We call it San Da, and yes we incorporate boxing punches because we are wearing gloves, but take a Champ like Cung le and put him in the UFC and now everyone focuses on his past training not his recent training that made him a champ. Recent meaning over 20 years of San Da SAn Shou.
My point is youre damed if you do and youre damed if you don’t. If I were to become the UFC champion You would imediatly focus on my Tae kwon do training wich I don’t even remember since I haven’t done it in years. Give me a break and stop being so obtuce.
Wow. That was an a** beating. That white dude got beat like he owed him money. He was tough though, kept getting up.
Well this aint the Movies Kids
I Agree with Liokault Here. People generally have a jaded and naive perspective on how Kung Fu “Looks”. there is the Practice,cardio, endurance training. Then there is the controlled sparring, and the demonstrating of techniques to a person who is just standing there offering no resistance or counter, THEN you have the actual match. Pretty interesting huh? you learn all those fancy moves and are so wrapped up in the jacky chan and jet li style fighting you see in the movies, THEN when you actually get in to a fight or you are in a match like this one that was posted, you see right off the bat that the instincts take over and a fight becomes the lesser of how you were practicing the fight to begin with. Sure you throw in a few good techniques like the winner of this fight did, and you also saw the punch that the winner of this fight recieved and almost got knocked out with, but in the end. It’s a couple of guys trying to knock each other out or throw each other to the ground.
All in all i thought it was a decent match, and the Winner seemed to be very respectful. what country was that match shot in?
As always ,,TWS
It’s England
No, you pay attention. the TKD and judo comment was not in relation to schools where you are. I’m saying they aren’t in the spotlight like mma and kung fu, yet they are STILL the most widely practiced arts in the world. As far as kung fu not being mainstream, I think that’s a cop out. I’m not trying to find how many kung fu schools there are. I asking where the real guys are. I want to see a fighting clip of one vs someone who is not real. I wanna see how different it looks. show me this difference of which you speak. The bottom line, IME is that fighting is fighting, period. It tends to look very similar, despite the style. Hell, even the capoeira instructor at our club looks like us when we spar. His movement is different in some instances, but he elbows, knees, throws, and kicks just like us. He only really plays differently when he’s playing with other capoeira guys, however he does use feinta, esquiva and to a small extent, the ginga.
Make a long story short, even reality shows on TV are not real life. If you are measuring what is affective by what you see on TV than you are not being realistic.
effective in the venue in question, yes, you can. TMA has not been effective in said venue. However, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t effective period, obviously.
Here is reality the majority of people do not have the time or lack of brains to compete in these events, most of us have 9 to 5 jobs. Becoming the Ultimate fighting Champion is not realistic.
screw the ufc. you seem to bring it up as much as mma guys do. However, I do believe fully that every ma should at some point in time fight at least once. doesn’t matter if it’s muay thai, san da, judo shiai, international rules kickboxing or mma. But they should compete in SOMETHING.
Most of what you see on TV are well conditioned athletes that spend 6 to 8 hours a day training because it,s their job. When it come to the average guy who is not a stacked muscle bound steroid monster that guy needs to have an edge over the guy that’s going to take his head off. That’s where Kung Fu is very effective, it’s for the street and it gives us the edge over the big guy.
that’s ridiculous. what is your fascination with tv? I’m talking about every day guys. I train daily. I lift several times a week. I’m not on roids. muay thai, bjj, judo… has given me every edge I’ve ever needed. Kung fu is not special in that regard. put the average guy in boxing and wrestling, and he will have that same edge.
Kung Fu has shown it’s effective in the ring. We call it San Da, and yes we incorporate boxing punches because we are wearing gloves, but take a Champ like Cung le and put him in the UFC and now everyone focuses on his past training not his recent training that made him a champ. Recent meaning over 20 years of San Da SAn Shou.
man, you can’t really be this anal… it’s not about us ignoring his cma. It’s great that he trained cma. But the whole point that started this all is that he’s NOT a pure CMA. you can’t deny it and neither can anyone else. that is why his success will not do anything for the cma world.
My point is youre damed if you do and youre damed if you don’t. If I were to become the UFC champion You would imediatly focus on my Tae kwon do training wich I don’t even remember since I haven’t done it in years. Give me a break and stop being so obtuce.
actually, no I wouldn’t. there is a big difference between doing something a few years and forgetting and spending more than 10 years of your life doing something. he started wrestling in jr high and did so through college. And was a national champ. see the difference there? And since we’re being anal, it’s OBTUSE.
exactly.
The only thing greencloud is missing is some hundred year old stories. I thought we weeded these types out a few years ago.
Cmon, give us the good stuff.
Genki Sudo looks more kung fu then Cung Le.
Is the UFC the only NHB event/format that exists? I think Ive seen plenty of chinese beat up in PRIDE.
I think greencloud is red5angel.
:eek:
In my mind, I look like Jet Li when I fight. Seeing it on video is always a rude awakening.
I am still not sure what is up with this: From what I can tell there are a couple key factors at play
Most kung fu schools train like crap, they dont condition hard, do a lot of forms, dont do a lot of partner work with applying concepts, and dont get into heavy hitting and what it feels like to have someone trying to take your head off. KF is not the only martial art guilty of this, in fact most are I would hazard since its just easier to teach and make money that way, but it does totally dilute your art.
Many Kung Fu students also do not compete in actual semi legit fighting formats, such as san shou, kick boxing, MAYBE continuous fighting depending on the rules, etc. This leads to tons of people that base their skills around how an average joe is going to act and react to technique, not how a trained fighter is going to, since they dont have a lot of exposure to them first hand.
This is a big one, and I may catch flak for this, but regardless it is true for the most part. One BIG integral thing people miss is that chinese arts (for the most part, there are exceptions but not many) in general differ from others in that time is not considered a factor in your training, only the end result and the path. This leads to what you complain about Sevenstar. The training is not setup to make you a good fighter fast, and often if it is, it is at the expense of the depth that makes CMA amazing. Add in that the finger training, hand training, body training, and styles of movement and power generation alone can take upwards of 10 years of consistant practice and you begin to see why there are not many students out there that exhibit these properties. Just finding a student that will work hard on anything fairly reliably for more than a year can be difficult, not do the math for 10 year guys. I am lucky in that the 2 schools I have trained in both had several guys there that were past the 20-30 year mark, and so I have seen how it works when it works, against san shou trained fighters, grapplers, the works. Chinese martial art is awesome to behold, and they can do some things that I havent seen done in any other style of MA, but it is slow to develop and you must train properly to use it.
Add to that that many people, including teachers see a scholarly pursuit of MA practice as “higher class” than being a hands on fighter, and things get really convoluted.
To sum it up, it is out there, I have seen it, and believe I practice the right way to develop it, but most schools do not have it. Chinese arts in particular are susceptible to this more than most due to their reliance on hits and movement styles that utilize shapes that are not as natural for people at first, so if you dont train it right, it just goes to crap. That being said if you cross hands with a guy that does have it, you have a rude awakening coming for you. I would encourage you not to discount things just because you havent seen them, but that is really in the end up to you, I am happy with what I have seen.