I’ve come to the conclusion that Kung Fu fight strategies (ie, how your style chooses to deal with a particular attack/series of attacks/category of attacks) seem to be very similar to those in “sport” arts. The “dance and jab” style of boxing, for instance emphasizes capturing the centerline and using it as your path of attack and slipping as you move establishes your line to your opponent while taking you off his. Combinations once the opening is found drive your opponent into a defensive vice offensive posture so you can finish things. Wing Chun, while using different methods to clear a path of attack, uses the same principle of capturing the center and forward pressure. Different tactics, similar strategy.
Shuai Chiao might enter with a strike or block or evade something, but then wants to throw you. Hard. Not unlike a Judoka or a wrestler, etc.
It seems to me that the fight strategies themselves are not incompatible with ring fighting–while specific techniques might be illegal, the overall strategy would still seem valid. I’m sure that a good CMA guy could modify that eyestrike/throat strike into a shot to the face, a kick directly to the knee to the thigh, a knee to the groin to the stomach, etc.
What do you think? I know that there are good people out there who train hard that could apply these strategies in the ring, like the WT guy who is in the Danish article on the WC forum (it’s a link in a post). So where are they? Or do you think I’ve got this all wrong?
I think you’re right. Even if you can’t grab or claw or finger jab your opponent with the gloves on, it doesn’t mean you can’t do anything. You still have 95% of your tools available.
I have thought the same thing. Most kung fu styles have high level fight tactics and strategies that would pose a nice problem for ring fighting styles. The eye and throat strike argument for not fighting in tournaments is just an excuse because I train to have less deadly or harmful strikes along with the ones you would use if someone attacked you with a knife. I would like to see how a bagua guy would do in a boxing or kickboxing ring. The problem with fighting with gloves on is that it makes a lot of the grabbing and hand techniques that kung fu trains hard or impossible to pull off.
I think you’re right. Although I don’t know where this idea that kungfu was about eye and throat strikes came from. Er… well, I do… it’s just not correct.
“So where are they?”
Those with the inclination and ability are in the ring competeing.
It’s not all about eye and throat strikes–but if that is a common follow-up to something, then you’ll have to “train it out” for the ring. That’s all I meant. Sorry.
Of course, posts like “if I were on the ground, I’d just eye-gouge him,” don’t help
Braden–if you have some links to some mma fighters who claim a Kung Fu background who have competed a lot, and seem to use the kung fu they’ve learned, that’d be cool. I already know about Jason DeLucia.
Well, we both know how much merit THOSE kinds of posts have.
Are you asking if there’s kungfu guys in the ring, or are you asking if there’s mixed martial arts guys in the ring who have some background in kungfu, or are you asking if there’s kungfu guys in a certain ring event, or are you asking if there’s mixed martial arts guys who have a background in kungfu in a certain ring event?
These are all different questions. Some of them are kind of silly.
Specifically, I’m asking if there are web links to guys who claim a Kung Fu background who are fighting in MMA events that you might know about. And more specifically, I don’t want somebody who’s done 2 years of oh, I don’t know, Hung Gar, then 8 years of boxing, and 4 years of BJJ, and fights like a boxer who does BJJ
You know… Vanderlei Silva LOOKS like a thai boxer when he fights… Guy Mezger LOOKS like a kickboxer with an american kickboxing background. That sort of thing. I mean, they have a certain look to their styles that is identifiable.
I’ve only ever seen one “kung fu” guy competing that used an “identifiable” sort of kung fu maneuver, and he tried to chain punch into his opponent.
Before you’d ever see “an ‘identifiable’ sort of kung fu maneuver,” you’d have to know what you’re looking at. For the most part, what you’d be looking at can’t be viewed through a technicentric eye.
Any style can fight against any other style in the ring.
There are rounds, rules, scoring systems and similar to boxing.
Most of the MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) Guys, crosstrained in a large variety of MA(Karate, TKD, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ,etc) to be able to compete better in the ring.
I can watch a guy and tell if he’s BJJ/Judo, wrestling, kickboxing, or thai boxer, sumo etc. If I look at something I’ve never seen anything like it before I’d start asking some questions: “Gee–that looked different. Wonder what that was.”
Now an experienced CMA guy might be able to identify it–and if that’s “Technicentric thinking,”–tough. There is a flavor each of these arts has–Renzo Gracie has an OBVIOUS BJJ background–even if I didn’t know the Gracie name, but I did know/see/do BJJ, I’d be able to tell that. But if some guy says “I’m a [insert style here] guy,” and I’m watching him BOX, it’s not going to have that CMA flavor, is it?
So, I might no be able to tell, but somebody should be able to tell that it’s CMA and not kickboxing, yeah?
MMA is mixed martial arts. Like the UFC or pride. It’s the PC way of saying it
I honestly have no idea what “mixed martial arts” means. Every definition I’ve heard was kind of silly. Is what red_fists said what you were looking for?
You’re talking CMA in general. I’m talking Tai Chi.
Two totally different things in terms of Tai Chi’s
tactical universality that your technicentricism
prevents you from appreciating.
Tai Chi isn’t about techniques. It’s about energy
management, and movement principles based
on very simple ideas and concepts, and how the
indivdual expresses them as aspects of
their own physical dynamic.
red_fists -> Thanks. I’m familiar with the popular concept. But it doesn’t change how meaningless it is. Technically speaking, you study a MMA, as does anyone studying a northern preying mantis style, etc etc etc; however a guy calling himself MMA would never agree with this.
I just want to hear MP operationally define the term with regard to what he is asking in this discussion. I want him to say specifically “I mean only the event UFC” or “I mean any event which is open to any style”, or whatever. Before he does that, he can prove any possible response I give (even any theoretical response - that is, any response that would even be true in a universe different than ours) to be false by simply using a different definition of “MMA” than the one I assumed when I replied. That’s why in math, logic, and science the first thing you do is provide operational definitions.
