Why no identifiably good Kung Fu in MMA events?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

Reemul;

Again, another person who doesn’t really think that ring fighting “fits,” with TCMA. A perfectly fine answer in my mind. There are ramifications, but other threads to cover that some other time :slight_smile:

Question. You write: I’m all for getting together with other styles to test skills, I’m just not big on fighting for sport or exhibitionism.

How is fighting for sport, to challenge yourself, different from getting together with other styles? Fundamentally, that is what you are doing, except you are doing it in public.

Word of note: Fighting in the ring isn’t necessarily an “ego trip.” Entering a competition is just as much about challenging yourself to improve, or rating your skill level vs others, as it is about winning. And don’t give me the"improvement isn’t about being better than the other guy…" If that were true, then martial arts wouldn’t be, in large part, about training to defend yourself be being better than the other guy who’s attacking you. :smiley:

42

COMPLETELY OT

Apprentice, royal dragon;

They have a word for “good morals,” in the combative sport scene. It’s called “sportsmanship,” and my wrestling coaches and BJJ instructor won’t have it any other way.

Apprentice: Your analogy of planet CMA, vice combative sport plays to the idea that ring fighters are low brow and morally inferior to those who have adopted a CMA mindset. They aren’t. They do their fighting in the ring, and behave like gentlemen towards each other afterwards. They have the discipline and drive to prepare their body and will to win in gruelling competition with each other, and at the end of the day, behave in a respectful manner. At least the good sportsmen do.

I’ve seen plenty of folks in “traditional arts,” that are ‘bad sports.’ Moral development is moral development, whether you call it good sportsmanship or a KF mindset or something else entirely. TMA training does not imbue the practitioner with superior morals any more than ring fighting imbues them with inferior ones.

43

MY bad, i DID know that wrestling was a Martial art(known as grappling) why i said it wasn’t? dont know,
however, i did NOT know that Thai n what not was NOT a martial art…thanx for telling me though, knowledge is power

I’m starting to think, that the more ‘sporty’ arts, such as the ones in UFC just happen to go good against eachother, and the ones in San Shaou(sp?) go good with eachother…so the blending of these more oftenly is kind of a bad thing for the practicioners…i think MORE kung fu people from san shaou n such, the ones that wish to compete should try against arts that aren’t like theirs, and that way they can learn to adapt to different styles, but of course, its a matter of choice

44

Steven T,

You seem to be saying that the lack of TCMA ring fighting, in your view stems from a sort of western view about what is and isn’t done in TCMA’s. Is that correct?

Do you also believe that the rules are so restrictive as to seriously limit a KF practitioner, generally speaking?

What are your thoughts on the following?

  1. Interest in the esoteric includes a fascination with Eastern Philosophy/cultural which seems so much more “spiritual,” than Western (if you can call lack of both rigorous logic and curiosity, philosophy…another topic for another time though)

  2. The martial arts, thanks to the “spiritual” folks in the west become about “self-improvement,” to be valued WAY above martial skill.

  3. Fighting, and especially for sport, becomes a crass rude thing, that “WE,” just don’t do, because it’s just “so much meat.”

Has this been a pattern in your view, and does it tie in with/contribute to, the lack of Kung Fu ring fighters in MMA?

45

So far I’ve got the following score card:

1 for rules too restrictive in MMA

3 for, TCMA’s just really aren’t interested in this. Of these:
1 believes it is a shame that they aren’t interested
2 believe it is anathema to the principles of TCMA

3 KF guys who’d like to go and beat the **** out of people and do a proper job of it too. :smiley:

46

Thats absurd

Improving your fighting skills is not based on being better than “the other guy” because you are not " the other guy" and therefore your frame of referrence is entirely inaccurate. Just because you can’t beat someone doesn’t mean that you lack improvement.

MA events are all about Ego trippin

There is a difference between training and fighting in a ring for a crowd. Fighting exhibition is totally based on Ego tripin. Everyone is there to “Prove something” to others, I don’t need such events to know whether I am improving. I don’t need to prove to anyone else that I can fight. My ability is more important than whether or not anyone knows about it. I don’t need to be known as “The champ”.

Training with other styles isn’t about proving you or your style, it’s about getting a different perspective, and dealing with it given your particular training.

I do think a good KF guy could hold his own in MMA. I just don’t think alot care for it. They don’t see it as the ultimate testing grounds.

Now when you where describing all the chokes that people have had on you, it sounds like someone was taking it easy on you or didn’t know what they where doing. The windpipe choke is an interresting example of someone pulling the technique to keep you alive. When first applying it, your opponent could have just crushed your windpipe with a quick motion(if the tech. was a tiger claw), or they could have ripped your windpipe out, rather than slowly trying to choking you. This is what people are referring to when dicussing discrepancies of grappling vs KF. Now you have already admitted that you had these chokes applied, so doing what I have described is well within the possibility that you have outlined.

When I sparred a grappler for the first time I put my hand on his throat to let him know I could, he didn’t think much could come of it so I gave him some incentive, I grabed his windpipe to the point that my fingers touched my thumb behind the pipe, so much for him going for the jointlock. Again the MMA and NHB type events are a narrow scope of MA, they are just the glorrified portion of it.

47

I’m surprised the grappler let you have the throat that easy. Most of us submission types are trained to protect our necks and faces pretty well. Interesting. Or alternately, I am impressed that you have such skill. No sarcasm intended.

And, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I reject the hypothesis that ring fighting is an ego trip. I also reject the idea that we don’t train to be better than the other guy. We do, or else we aren’t training to defend ourselves, we’re just fooling ourselves while we train.

48

To Merryprankster

So you view improvement as being better than everyone else. So how will you ever know you have improved and others haven’t deteriorated. Do you plan to fight everyone in the world.

If MMA and NHB events aren’t about ego trippin, then why the crowd. What does the crowd have to do with training. Are members of the crowd go to jump in.

As for letting me get at his throat, he didn’t have much say in the matter. Some of us KF guys actually train (conditioning and technique) and are versed in grappling as it pertains to our systems.

Just because you train to protect certain areas, doesn’t mean your invincible. I train not to be taken to ground, doesn’t mean I won’t and doesn’t mean I will be out of my element either.

49

yep, nothing like beating that dead horse one more time. I could try to defend kung fu, but it’s not worth the effort. Think whatever y’all want.

If you guys are into rolling around on the ground with other men for hours on end, more power to you. It’s not for me.

50

By the way

Not dissin here but
if you determine your improvement based on beating the other guy, your sites aren’t high enough.

51

Paul, you’re completely missing the point.

Why do YOU think there’s been a lack of quality Kung Fu representation in MMA events?

That’s the point of the thread. I could give a rat’s ass about arguing over the effectiveness of Kung Fu or training or whatever. I’m trying to answer that one question. The side discussions are just that: Things that pop up in the thread.

Are you related to Budokan by chance?

Reemul, some people like to watch fights, hence the crowd. If you think I compete at BJJ events to win the adoration of the crowd and get a medal around my chest that says I beat everybody, think again. But, you are welcome to believe what you like.

Thanks for the small lecture, but I am perfectly aware that some Kung Fu guys train diligently and are quite capable fighters. I’m perfectly aware that there are good Kung Fu guys out there and probably quite a number of them capable of kicking ass, just like there are crappy wrestlers and BJJers who are lazy and can’t be bothered to improve.

I would suggest that if you aren’t training to beat the other guy, you are fooling yourself. But again, we simply disagree. That’s fine.

The hostility about this subject is remarkably intense. Not you specifically Reemul, just in general. I’m kind of amazed. I’ve made a concerted effort to 1. Not go the MMA is SOOOOOO much better than Kung Fu route, which is not only unprovable, but not particularly useful, and 2. Try to ensure that there isn’t any “well, that technique wouldn’t work crap…” I mean if it goes that way, not much I can do about it, but it sure doesn’t answer the question well!

BTW, thanks for providing your perspective on why KF seems to be not particularly well represented in MMA events.

52

To Paul

I don’t think Merryprankster is saying that KF can’t hang, just that the good ones don’t show up. I have to agree.

53

To Prankster

I’m revisiting the idea of forming a group of different styles to get together and train. But not in a the compacity to where there is a crowd. Fighting in front of a crowd tends to fuel the ego. No one wan’ts to be beaten or embarrassed in public, thus the ego trip begins. IF people are ego tripin they tend to go instinctual rather than methodical. After your matches, do you celebrate?

54

Reemul,

I’m sorry. I just reread my last post. The small lecture bit sounds pretty snotty. My apologies. It’s late and it’s been a long (84 hour) work week.

As far as do I celebrate? Not really. I admit to being pleased with myself, but usually, it’s because of something specific “Hey, I used that new guard pass I’ve been working… or you know that new sub combo? Finally pulled it off!”

That sort of thing.

Funny story… I went to a tournament in Disney World where I was in a match with this guy and I did something stupid and he got me. Since he was down 5-0 and there were only 10 sec left, he was very excited and rightfully so! He was jumping up and down and with arms to the sky screaming yes! At the top of his lungs. I got up and started laughing because he had a wild look in his eyes… it was really humorous, in a nice, celebratory way. He was pretty happy he won, not that he’d beaten me, and it had a pretty good vibe about it. Anyway, he saw me laughing with him, and he realized what he was doing and started laughing too. THAT’S the way celebration should be, if it’s done at all :slight_smile:

55

No apologies necessary

I didn’t think much of it.

56

Hahaha.
Nope no relation to Budokan as far as I know.

I don’t think a lot of kung fu guys are that interested in NHB fighting. Not really sure why.

One thing though is that just for fighting in the ring with gloves on, you have to change the way you strike. At my school sparring is done two ways- bare knuckle and with gloves on for sanshou training. The two fighting styles are different, then you start to add ground fighting and what do you have? Something that doesn’t really look like stereotypical kung fu.

Our techniques are deadlier than a mther fcker. heh.

57

Reemul

“Just because you can’t beat someone doesn’t mean that you lack improvement.”

Very true, some guys just have your number. But if you are not learning from your mistakes and he is beating you the same way everytime, it does tell you something. Actually fighting is the best way to gauge your improvement though, IMO.

“MA events are all about Ego trippin”

All about Ego trippin? come on, not any more than a hockey, basketball, football or any contest done in front of a crowd. Hell if your going to go so far, I’ll say a Wushu demonstration is ego trippin as well.

“I don’t need such events to know whether I am improving”

Tell me then, how do you know? How does a basketball player know he’s improving, easy by his performance during a game. How do you know, your learning calculous 101, easy by passing the final exam.

“I do think a good KF guy could hold his own in MMA. I just don’t think alot care for it. They don’t see it as the ultimate testing grounds.”

I agree, I could see a good Sanda/Kuoshu guy with some groundfighting training could do very well in MMA, they are very good fighters. Is MMA the street? Of course not, nobody is saying it is, however I do believe that MMA is the best LEGAL event that displays the best overall fighting ability.

58

Hi Merry ‘P’,

Sorry about the brief reply, been up all night with a sick child.

Short answer (for now) is ‘Yes’ you’ve about summed up what I think is a major but maybe not so obvious contributory factor(s).

A lot of Chinese actually don’t see KF the way ‘we’ (qualified remark) do in the west - thanks to David Carradine, the ‘60’s’ et al.

There is plenty of full contact in HK and Singapore and now mainland China but very few TCMA ‘westerners’ would in my belief put themselves up for a western model NHB, Pankration or MMA scenario. For too many it just wouldn’t ‘compute’.

I beleive it is a reflection on a general lack of reality based training and practice in many TCMA (in the west) - even in many Chinese schools in the west.

I accept of coures that other causes are at work, but would like to offer this one for consideration or otherwise.

Regards,

Steve.

59

Whoa, these kinds of threads really take off, huh!? :wink:

Assorted comments -

**Apprentice - Re: Sports, Martial Arts, Ways of Life.

These all have rather specific definitions. Kungfu can be used as a sport just as easily as wrestling can. (Koushu and sanshou are sports, for example). Wrestling can be a way of life just as much as kungfu can, or poetry, or anything else. It’s about how the individual approaches it, no ‘cultural transmission’ has the patent on being a sport, martial art, nor way of life.

**Archangel - “This might not sit well but it seems that the Kung Fu pro fighters have not reached this level yet.”

I was under the impression that K1 follows ‘kickboxing’ rules rather than ‘standup’ rules. Extrapolating ‘kickboxing’ results to ‘standup fighting’ results holds no merit whatsoever.

**Jon - “Braden this really worried me…Your telling me you can stick your finger in your eye and it doesnt hurt! ok i find that a little strange considering mine start to hurt when my eyelash go’s in them”

Please use some common sense. Sure it’s irritating when your eyelashes get in your eyes. Is it the kind of irritating that is going to have any effect on you fighting? Stick your index finger into one of your eyesockets right now. Go ahead, it’s perfectly safe. Be gentle. Just stick it in enough to barely hook the lower rim of the eyesocket. Are you in agony? I’m doing it now, and it’s not even slightly irritating. Push it in a bit further. Still not the slightest bit of pain. Stop there, since you CAN cause yourself serious damage going further. Chances are very high that you won’t though. There are some ways to martially damage the eyes. Sticking your finger into the socket isn’t one of them.

“As for the throat i told you to strike the voice box this is impossible to flex and can be crushed without much effort with a sharp strike.”

I’m not sure what anatomy you’re learning. I’ve taken sharp strikes there and it sucked bigtime but did no serious damage. To damage the front of the throat, you have to get in and around that wall of cartlige which you think is so fragile - something you cannot do with a normal strike.

“If your really not concerned with getting hit in these areas…”

Please don’t put words in my mouth. :slight_smile:

60

Thanks Steve, I appreciate the response, ESPECIALLY if you’ve been up with a sick child all night!

I kinda figured you would feel that way.

Paul, thanks for the response. Question for you-- have you tried MMA gloves? Would it make a difference in how you strike or can you not speculate?

Also, HOW does your striking differ with gloves on?