Why no identifiably good Kung Fu in MMA events?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

Rebuts.

Merryprankster
You make many very good points, testing of the art is always a difficault concern for a fighter. I just wanted to clarify a couple of points i made as they seem to have been taken a little poorly, which im sure is my fault for the way ive worded them.

Merryprankster posted…
“How often do you try to actively, and at full power:
eye spear
throat strike
joint strike,
etc.”

This is a very good question and IS of concern in good kung fu but the answer is actualy quite simple… Its easyer to hit these targets if your TRAINED that way. It obviously takes practice but just as a Thai Boxer can use elbows to cut the skin on the eyebrows causing blood to blind there opponent so to can a Kung Fu practioner hit nerve points during combat. Its simply accuracy practice. Certainly takes time but ive seen the results first hand.
The main reason why NHB people dont belive in these techniques is simply becouse there illegal in most competions hence not trained. You cant really think its so much harder to punch the throat or joints than it is to hit the face or stomach?

This leads though to the next point which several people have picked on.
I wrote this in my first post.
“In traditional arts at high level every strike is aimed at a lethal target so it becomes like reflex.”
I can understand why some people have picked on this point but i will just say a few extra things to clarify it.
For a start obviously you CAN tone down the lethality of what your doing but you must remember the arts are designed for breaking not for playing. This is really what i was trying to say Kung Fu conditions the reflex for a very different goal to sport martial arts. I realise that a good practioner should be able to adapt his technique but really why should he?
This is where in sport martial art competion it starts to go in the ring fighters favor, as the ringfighter is fighting in his element where as the traditional fighter is forced to think twise about every movement.
I was not trying to state that TCMA is to dangerous for the ring so much as not designed for it. This means that TCMA has a hard time adapting to the requirements of sport fighting.
Again i have no problem with NHB, i just dont see why I as a TCMA practioner have to constantly justify it to them.

22

Eh, no need. I think you pretty much answered the question.

That does create a bit of a problem I suppose.

So we can knock at least one up to the rules really ARE too limiting :slight_smile:

Yeah, if you wanted to travel… to Brazil, you could probably find something.

**** the athletic commissions! This wasn’t a problem a few years back! :slight_smile:

23

Actually Jon, I completely disagree with you. The eyes, pressure points and the throat are all small targets, as are the elbows. MUCH smaller targets than the face or stomach. I really believe it is that much harder to hit the throat of a person with telling effect than their head or stomach. The target area is MUCH smaller.

Comparing thai elbows to specific pressure point attacks is VERY different. I draw the elbow across the face, aiming for the eyebrows, but if I miss, no worries, I’ll just open up a cut somewhere else. I’m just trying to HIT you in the face with the elbow, eyebrow gash is a bonus. Trying to hit a small pressure point on a moving opponent is very different… fly with chopsticks kind of thing.

I can train to attack eyes and throat or joints all day, but if I haven’t used it on a fully resisting opponent, how do I know it works? How can I be sure that this is the fight ender or as powerful a strike as I think it is?

The reason we don’t believe these techniques is relatively simple. The first UFC’s allowed pressure points… they didn’t seem to do the trick. Secondly, most of us have been whacked around grappling and punching quite a bit. I imagine that at some point we would have been hit or poked in these pressure points and something would have happenned.

I haven’t. Until I see it work on a fully resisting opponent, I won’t believe it. Show me, and I will!

But that still doesn’t answer the question: Why the lack of Kung Fu in NHB? And you are still falling back on the “too dangerous for the ring.” Do you really believe that?

24

I’ll be off for a bit… sleeping after 14 hours of duty!

Cheers!

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Merryprankster

Urg this is already going the way i really didnt want it to…

Do you not think i can hit things other than preasure points? Do you not think if i strike your throat even at half force and miss my precise target it wouldnt hurt? Do you not consider that maybe presure points and soft area striking are bonus to combat and not the be all and end all of it. Do you really think its so difficault to train to hit things other than competion targets? Also just as you have stated with your rebut of my Thai elbow comparison what makes you think if i punch a point on your body and miss its not going to hurt anyway? The fly with chopsticks reference is out of place as well, presure points are on the body they dont float around in space.
As i tried so hard to state its a reflex for us to use movements which are not legal in most competions, why should we change our art simply to make it work in a ring?
Christ ive personaly elbowed someone in there fist as they were throwing a punch. By your rational thats basicaly impossible becouse its not regualy trained at your club? Let alone the whole accuracy small target issue.
This comment i find very odd…

“The first UFC’s allowed pressure points… they didn’t seem to do the trick”

So they then went on to ban them for what reason? If they ‘didnt do the trick’ why not just let everyone use those non working techniques? You seem to openly disparage the existance of presure points. Maybe you should study some science and look up accupresure.

"I can train to attack eyes and throat or joints all day, but if I haven’t used it on a fully resisting opponent, how do I know it works? How can I be sure that this is the fight ender or as powerful a strike as I think it is? "

Stick your finger into your eye socket [not hard obviously] now try striking your voicebox with something hard and small like a knuckle, pretty painfull aint it? Its not hard to realise either of these two points can work. Just becouse you personaly havent used it does not mean it has no use.
Ive used accuracy quite effectivly in fighting im not sure why you seem to think its so difficault. Maybe becouse your used to fighting in sparring gloves?

“But that still doesn’t answer the question: Why the lack of Kung Fu in NHB? And you are still falling back on the “too dangerous for the ring.” Do you really believe that?”

Fine you want to bully a strait answer ill give you my own personal reason why i wouldnt fight there, i cant speak for every other kung fu fighter.
The day you get me in a cage fighting someone else for no reason other than my personal fame and fortune… That will be the day i have lost my morals as a martial artist and become simply a fighter. I dont fight unless i HAVE to, its that simple.
As for the “too dangerous for the ring.” i tried very hard to distance myself from that. My point which ive tried now several times to make is that our reflexs are geared differently meaning that we are at a disadvantage. We can adjust its just that this means we have to either retrain ourselfs or think twise about every movement. Why should we???
Im sorry to get angry and post in this way im actualy not trying to start a war. Im just REALLY tired of people trying to pick holes in things just becouse they fail to understand them.

26

Well I wan to fight professionally in the future, and
Bak Mei says he wants to too. I do cross train in BJJ
though and will continue to do so.

27

Merry ‘P’,

I think why a lot of TCMA don’t feature in NHB/MMA events is probably a product of the transition of oriental culture into a mainly western cultural framework over thelast 30 years or so.

Just to explain, as its been hours without sleep - so please make allowances for the crap reasoning - it’s in part a western attitude to the culture of TCMA. The esoteric is very seductive, and for many it is that filter that draws them into TCMA in the first place.
That is the origin of many of the ‘excuses’ or rationalisations for either not competing or worse, of failing.

It just isn’t the the kind of thing that’s ‘done’ in TCMA. It follows then that the ‘our skills are too deadly’ etc etc get trawled out.

Of coure full contact Kung-Fu events have been going on as sports in HK for many decades, but, it is mainly westerners who buy into the esoteric excuses for not pressure testing ‘Kung-Fu’.

It’s much easier to have vicarious, by-proxy or otherwise fantasy ‘fights’ and then take the moral highground by quoting mysticism and estoteric practices.

To compete in a rings environ, TCMA would have to adapt - and to change. And there is great resistance to that: San-Dar and San-Shou competitions aside - as I’m talking mainly from a ‘traditional’ perspective.

If for example, ‘Pankration’ was taught and trained in a high classical Greek cultural way, you’d have a completely different art - something approaching TCMA complete with ‘Chi’ in the form of Pneuma, single-blow challenges in the form of the ‘Klimax’ challenge, Gods (Hermes, Heracles etc) traditional medicine and ‘philosophy’.

Horses for courses…

Steve.

28

Part 1

Jon,

I know this wasn’t directed at me, but as Merry Prankster is asleep right now; I’ll give it a go. (Hope you don’t mind Prankster, i’ll be civil I promise) :wink:

"The fly with chopsticks reference is out of place as well, presure points are on the body they dont float around in space. "

hehe, the thing is it’s the body that floats around and moves in space. Have you ever tried to hit a trained boxer while he was bobbing, weaving and striking. It’s very diificult to hit him period, nevetheless a small point on his body. I think the chopsticks analogy stands.

“As i tried so hard to state its a reflex for us to use movements which are not legal in most competions, why should we change our art simply to make it work in a ring?”

Oh please, many arts like Muay Thai, Kyokoshin Kai, Seido Kai, Jui jitsu, JKD etc have had no problem doing this. In the process they have improved their arts by adding contests where they can test themselves against 100% resisting oponents. It’s is extremely difficult for a McDojo to proliferate in these arts because of the competition aspect. San Shou guys are trying to do this for Kung Fu.

“Christ ive personaly elbowed someone in there fist as they were throwing a punch. By your rational thats basicaly impossible becouse its not regualy trained at your club? Let alone the whole accuracy small target issue.
This comment i find very odd…”

Of course nothing is imposible, but as a fighter I would use and train the techniques that had a higher percentage of actually working.

"So they then went on to ban them for what reason? If they ‘didnt do the trick’ why not just let everyone use those non working techniques? You seem to openly disparage the existance of presure points. Maybe you should study some science and look up accupresure. "

The truth is the Nevada state athletic commission didn’t like them; for whatever reasons I do not know. And to get sanctioned for the big money events the UFC had to abide by there ruling. Really now, Pride in Japan still allows them, all of the events in Brazil allows them and I have yet to see a pressure point strike disable a fighter.

End of Pt. 1

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Part 2

"Stick your finger into your eye socket [not hard obviously] now try striking your voicebox with something hard and small like a knuckle, pretty painfull aint it? Its not hard to realise either of these two points can work. Just becouse you personaly havent used it does not mean it has no use.
Ive used accuracy quite effectivly in fighting im not sure why you seem to think its so difficault. Maybe becouse your used to fighting in sparring gloves? "

I really don’t doubt that these techniques do work and can happen. I have to ask you though, have you tried it against a guy who standing outside of your range and blasting you with leg kicks. Have you tried it against a fighter that puts so much pressure on you that you are either knocked out or covering to save your life. Have you ever tried it against a guy who takes you to the ground and starts reighing blows on you from the top. You see a MMA arts fighter has; he has dealt with all of the above where as most traditionals have not. Its part of their training and what I believe gives them the greatest advantage.

I still have to ask though, are these techniques all you have. There are no other targets on the body where you can aim? That really sounds extremely limiting to me.

"The day you get me in a cage fighting someone else for no reason other than my personal fame and fortune… That will be the day i have lost my morals as a martial artist and become simply a fighter. I dont fight unless i HAVE to, its that simple. "

Oh come on now, why the Holier than though speech. Fighting in the ring for most is a profesional endeavor. Haven’t you ever wanted to make a living off something you love doing? Why do kung Fu fighters have more morals than Muay Thai, Kyokoshin, BJJ, Boxers, Wrestlers, Seido Kai figters etc. Your trying to tell me that there hasn’t been a few kung Fu fighters that have wanted to compete? I have seen them - Jason Delucia, Scott Baker, Asbel Cansio, David Levicki, Felix Lee Mitchell; they’ve all given MMA a run. Are they now heathens, shunned and looked down upon in the Kung Fu community. I bet if these fighters have won, it’d be a different story.

"My point which ive tried now several times to make is that our reflexs are geared differently meaning that we are at a disadvantage. We can adjust its just that this means we have to either retrain ourselfs or think twise about every movement. Why should we??? "

Hold on, I saw something on the web a little while ago about Kung Fu’s targets. I’ll looked it up later and get back to you on this one.

End Pt 2

30

Jon -

“You cant really think its so much harder to punch the throat or joints than it is to hit the face or stomach?”

I would agree with MP - it’s MUCH harder to hit the throat, for example, than the face. For obvious reasons, there are very strong instinctual movements in humans to protect the throat. A fighter with any training at all will also be tucking his chin, etc. The throat is also ‘deeper’ than the face, and will require a much more committed attack.

“Do you not think if i strike your throat even at half force and miss my precise target it wouldnt hurt?”

The negatives confuse me. :wink: But honestly, the throat is way more durable than you give it credit. We had a long thread about this a while ago. If you’re just hitting the throat with normal striking mechanics, you’re not going to get the results you want even with a clean hit. You have to learn some very specific mechanics for the peculiar anatomy of the throat. And yes, if you bungle the attack, it’s not going to have much effect.

“As i tried so hard to state its a reflex for us to use movements which are not legal in most competions…”

I believe we covered this point allready, and you agreed you could exercise full control over this, as collaborated by your previous statement: “Do you not think i can hit things other than preasure points?”

“Stick your finger into your eye socket [not hard obviously] now try striking your voicebox with something hard and small like a knuckle, pretty painfull aint it?”

Actually, no it’s not. The eye socket thing isn’t even slightly painfull, though it is unnerving. The throat thing is similarly unnerving - remember, everything there is cartilege, it has incredible abilities to bend and bounce back.

…

MerryP -

There’s some great ‘vital attacks’ that are ‘idiot-proof’ like your elbow (ie. no matter how bad you screw them up, they’re still going to do something). Personally, I’m not going to stand around punching people in the face, chest, or stomach. But I have much better options at my disposal than groin, throat, and eyes which are all highly commited, NOT idiot proof, low percentage attacks which I believe have unreliable results even when they work perfectly; not to mention most techniques to these spots keep you planted and in front of your opponent, which is the last place I want to be.

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MMa and Kung Fu

Is it possible that Kung Fu guys just compete in Kou Shou and San Shou competitons because that is what’s avaliable first? I mean, when someone competes, they go to thier Sifu and asks where they should go, and almost alwways they get the local Kou Shou and San Show circut, right? Once in ther, there is a never ending level of challenge, and by the time they make it to the top the’re getting tired of full contact fighting and stop competeing.

Just the same, when the averaged MMA goes to thier teacher and wants to compete, they get put into the local circut favored by thier teacher as well. MMA guys just happen to have different circutes, and probually would’nt know who to contact about fighting in Kou Shou and San shou anyway, and if they did it would be a bit of research, learning new rules and adapting thier “Fight game” to the new system. It’s much, much, MUCH easier to just continue fighting in the circut common to your martial circles.

The other thing, how come K1 guys are rarely if ever seen in San Shou, kou Shou and MMa cometiton and Vica versa?

Probually for the same reason as previously stated.

As for kung Fu guys not being in the UFC are’nt there a buch of stupid rules in that circut?

I heard you can’t hit a guy once he’s on the ground unless YOUR on the ground too, something totally against any TCMA system I have ever seen What about knee strikes (Taking a guys knees out)? What about jiont (Wrist elbow shoulder) locks and throws followed by you standing and kicking the crap out of the fighter wile down? What about doing that in low postures. I don’t think you can do any of that stuff in UFC.

Also, does the UFC allow you to use sticky body skills to crowd and jam your opponent wile you snake a throat grab around his gaurd and simutaniously trip him? What about elbowing guys in the base of the head wile they shoot in on you? are you allowed to do that?

If I can’t hit him wile he’s down, unless “I’M” down too, does’nt that force me to abandon my game, and fight my weakness against his strength? “Now”, i’m NOT doing Kung Fu anymore anyway, I’m doing MMA stuff, so why bother even signing up to fight in that circut?

The closest contsts “I” have seen for Kung Fu guys to actually do what they are trained to do is Kou Shou and San Shou, and even that has it’s restrictions.

So, since all circutes are restriced, If it was me, I’d fight in the circut that allows me to used as much of my traing as possible, NOT stop and fight in an arena I’m not prepared for, or one that forces me to literally quit my game and start someone elses to be good. Heck’ I’m not Kung Fu anymore then, am I? So even “IF” I got good at it I would never be recogniosed as a sucsessful Kung Fu fighter anyway, I’d be seen as a sucsessful MMA.

THAT is why you don’t see Kung Fu in theses types of tournaments. It’s also why you DON’T see MMa’s in our tournaments. Different circuts, different training. No one is going to go out there and pit their weaknesses against another’s strength, it violates basic common sense combat law.

Comments anyone?

Royal Dragon

32

I jes read all of this…(in record timing :smiley: )

To Archangel:

"That will be the day i have lost my morals as a martial artist and become simply a fighter. I dont fight unless i HAVE to, its that simple. " -Jon

“Why do kung Fu fighters have more morals than Muay Thai, Kyokoshin, BJJ, Boxers, Wrestlers, Seido Kai figters etc. Your trying to tell me that there hasn’t been a few kung Fu fighters that have wanted to compete? I have seen them - Jason Delucia, Scott Baker, Asbel Cansio, David Levicki, Felix Lee Mitchell; they’ve all given MMA a run. Are they now heathens, shunned and looked down upon in the Kung Fu community. I bet if these fighters have won, it’d be a different story.”-Braden

What is Muay Thai, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling?(I dont know about the rest)

They are sports

TCMA, Traditional Chinese “Martial Arts”, what are they?

Martial Arts, not just Combat, not just self defense, but a way of life(not to all, but to some, such as jon)…

Would a kung fu person be looked down on?

Hate to answer a question with a question, but would a person of Catholic religion be looked down on if they sinned, but didnt’ go to church often? Probably not…but how about a Priest? Someone who goes to church often, and has made it a part of their life…would they be looked down on if they sinned? Probably…

Think of Martial Arts as a religion, even though it is not, it is similar in a way, they are taught a “Way of life”…if someone wants to make it a way of their life, then good, they most likely would not “Fight for fame and fourtune”…but someone such as the people u named, they have not made it a part of their life, atleast not the “Fight only when needed” aspect…but they are taught that…jon is a person and their are many others who DO follow this rule…Think about it, if Everyone did follow this rule, it’d be a much more peaceful place wouldn’t you say?

However, i do agree that participating in a ring tournament WOULD boost your combat skills, but thats not everyones “Cup of Tea”…I’m going to study Hung Gar Kung Fu, and maybe aiikido, and i want to participate in some sort of UFC type thing, im also going to practice some kind of wrestling n ground fighting tho too, look for me in several years, i may win the middle weight belt =) maybe light weight

So to answer the original question beleive the reason why “Alot of Kung Fu Guys” dont fight in UFC, is because “Alot of Kung Fu Guys” follow the morals their teachers teach them…

In boxing, or muay thai, what are you taught? How to fight in the ring, what do you do? Fight in the ring…In Martial Arts, what are you taught? Self defense, AND Morals to live by if you choose to, they ARE good morals, so i dont see a problem with someone following them…

If your going to retaliate with something like “The morals are good by Whose standards?”…

You tell me, would you rather have an ENTIRE world of boxers, muay thai’ists, constantly fighting in the ring and on the street for reputation?(not saying all of them fight, but more would) Or an ENTIRE world of Martial artists, that DO follow the morals of dont fight unless needed…i’d personally move to planet CMA :smiley:

Hope i didn’t offend anyone in these posts, n helped u guys understand…later guys, Happy New Year, ''02

33

damm (heh, no astrix *)

I messed up, BRADEN didn’t say my second quote, ARCHANGEL did

34

i got so hung up on what i started talking about, i forgot i was going to add basically what royal dragon said as well for the kung fu guys who DO fight

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Royal Dragon

“Is it possible that Kung Fu guys just compete in Kou Shou and San Shou competitons because that is what’s avaliable first? I mean, when someone competes, they go to thier Sifu and asks where they should go, and almost always they get the local Kou Shou and San Show circut, right”

Very well could be. However, how many Kung Fu guys do compete in Kuoshu or Sanda. By my impressions so far it seems that alot of people in the CMA community look down at these fighters claiming “it’s not really kung Fu”. I have done my research on these events and I really think that they should be available to every Kung Fu kwoon. Unfortunately they are not.

“Just the same, when the averaged MMA goes to thier teacher and wants to compete, they get put into the local circut favored by thier teacher as well.”

Well, not really. Most MMA guys come from another art; they usually start out as wrestlers, BJJ fighters, Thai boxers etc. . Then they decide to go into MMA. So Sanda and Kuoshu fighters have the same opertunity as any fighter that wants to compete. MMA is not “exclusive”.

“the other thing, how come K1 guys are rarely if ever seen in San Shou, kou Shou and MMa cometiton and Vica versa?”

Well here your talking about money. K1 is the richest tournament in Martial Arts outside of boxing. If you are good enough to be in K1 , being a pro you want to stay there. A few fighters have gone to MMA, fighters like Gerard Gordeau, Mo Smith, Satake, Schilt. They haven’t gone to Sanda/Kuoshu because it does not pay nearly as well and it is a little obscure outside of the CMA communtiy; I really think fighters should though. Its a great venue. Now to as why no Kung Fu guys in K1, It is the richest tourney so youd expect the best standup fighters to be there. This might not sit well but it seems that the Kung Fu pro fighters have not reached this level yet.

“As for kung Fu guys not being in the UFC are’nt there a buch of stupid rules in that circut?”

Well there are alot more rules in the UFC now, the Nevada state athletic commision requires these rules to be sanctioned. However, none of these restrictions are allowed in Sanda or Kuoshu either. MMA even with all its rules, still has less restrictions than any other tournament save Brazil and Pride.

All of the scenarios you listed are legal in Pride Japan and the Brazil events.

“So, since all circutes are restriced, If it was me, I’d fight in the circut that allows me to used as much of my traing as possible”

That is still a MMA circuit. i really don’t understand this argument since Sanda/Kuoshu are more limiting than MMA; and every scenario you listed is illegal in Sanda/Kuoshu as well.

“THAT is why you don’t see Kung Fu in theses types of tournaments. It’s also why you DON’T see MMa’s in our tournaments. Different circuts, different training. No one is going to go out there and pit their weaknesses against another’s strength, it violates basic common sense combat law.”

I disagree, if you put a Sanda/kuoshu fighter into MMA they are not limited at all. Everything they can do in one of their tournament they are allowed in MMA. Conversely, a MMA fighter is extremely limited if he fought Sanda, the rules basically take away one of his ranges and sunmissions.

36

Apprentice

"What is Muay Thai, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling?(I dont know about the rest)

They are sports"

Except for Boxing, The origins of these arts are derived from warfare, from Martial arts. Go tell a student of Mas Oyama that kyokoshinkai karate isn’t a martial art, or maybe the Thai militarty that MT is not a martial art. Modern wrestling was derived from the Greek martial art of Pankration which was used int the Greek and Macedonian armies. Seido Kai, go check out some of the hard school dojos in Japan and tell them its not a Martial art.

The fact is these are all martial arts, with a sporting ( testing/ scientfic ) side to it. All of these are deep with tradition and history, with wrestling being even older than kung fu.

“Think of Martial Arts as a religion, even though it is not, it is similar in a way, they are taught a “Way of life”…if someone wants to make it a way of their life, then good, they most likely would not “Fight for fame and fourtune”…but someone such as the people u named, they have not made it a part of their life, atleast not the “Fight only when needed” aspect…but they are taught that.”

Again, “fight only when needed” is a noble gesture indeed; but this is completely different. I cannot see your analogy of SINNING or betraying ones school by deciding to fight in a tournament. Why is it wrong? It’s not fighting out of malice or anger, it is a professional endeavor and I cannot see why anyone would feel wronged or hurt if a student wanted to fight in a tournament. Again, it’s not fighting out of anger or malice; two proffesional fighters entering a contest of skill, fighting within rules. Does that mean that Kuoshu/Sanda fighters are sinners as well.

Another example: Mas Oyama, the father of Kyokoshin Kai Karate dedictated his entire life to Karate. This is not an exageration either; He lived Karate, it became a part of him and he is now one of the most respected martial artists who ever lived. His students with his blessing compete regularly . In fact they went into Thailand and fought the best Thai boxers in the world. He obviously knew that the only way to improve would be to test yourself against the best. Competing was a tool for him and his fighters, they used it to hone their skills and find weaknesses within their own style. Tell me, do you look down upon him? is he a sinner?

37

Apprentice
Thank you kindly for understading where im comming from its nice to see at least someone else believes in similar morals to myself.

To others
Ive clearly stated several times i can hit many more things than JUST preasure points. The difference is i do know there there… If you think my training started in day one trying to poke people in the eye your wrong. I worked my way up to using preasure points and nerve strikes and many of the nerves are either on the arms or the body. These are actualy quite easy places to strike and even if i miss the point im aiming at it still does good damage. The fly with chopsticks reference i still hold to be way off the mark. A body may sit in space but it aint no fly and sure as hell doesnt move like one.
Watch any police riot and you will get to see the police applying a whole bunch of mostly crappy preasure point techniques on demonstators. If the police can use them under preasure with minimal training what makes you think there so impossible?
As for this whole never being hit in a preasure point when sparring… Are you telling me the whole time you have been fighting no one has ever been nailed in the funny bone? Or taken a blow a bit wrong on the sholder and had to stop while there arm went dead?
Braden this really worried me
“Actually, no it’s not. The eye socket thing isn’t even slightly painfull, though it is unnerving. The throat thing is similarly unnerving - remember, everything there is cartilege, it has incredible abilities to bend and bounce back”
Your telling me you can stick your finger in your eye and it doesnt hurt! ok i find that a little strange considering mine start to hurt when my eyelash go’s in them, let alone when there activly poked.
As for the throat i told you to strike the voice box this is impossible to flex and can be crushed without much effort with a sharp strike. If your really not concerned with getting hit in these areas i propose that you either dont feel pain or are basicaly exagerating your abilty.

This has notably turned into a blatent kung fu bash, there are only a few sticking up for cma as noone else is willing to bother trying to justify something they hold dear to a bunch of people bent on trying to redicule it.
If you dont think think Kung Fu is any good becouse you dont see it on pride i dont care… I dont think pride is anygood becouse i cant see it working on the street vs multiple opponents or weapons.
Its a dumb argument…
As an add on to that…
What makes you think it IS moral for a martial artist to fight in a NHB tournament and deliberatley try to hurt someone in public for nothing other than money?
Kinda wreaks of thug if you ask me.
I really dont like this, i dont go around trying to state how ineffective i think NHB is outside of a controlled enviorment so why are you guys constantly hunting down us cma artists?
Like i say, if you dont like it shut the hell up and enjoy what you do. Dont sit here and tell me about it, ive already made up my mind.

38

To Merryprankster

There is no doubt kf masters mixed it up with other styles, learning from other styles was common, however it was done in a training atmoshpere not an exhibition. Now I’m being general because my argument is based on China’s social values. Sure ther were some, that fell out side the box. Most old school KF instructors just don’t teach martial technique, they delve into the KF mindset.

Now if you’re wonderring why KF guys don’t do MMA events I can give you my reasons. Generally not interrested, Don’t feel the need to go ego trippin, the pay sucks, comfortable in my training practice.

I don’t necessarilly think these reasons just apply to KF. As I said it is debateble as to whether MMA are the best testing grounds.

Our school practices Shaolin Warriorship which includes a certain mindset, martial training with and without weapons. We do a lot of weapons training, so how does that fit into MMA events. Now here we start to see a differrence in why people train. I’m all for getting together with other styles to test skills, I’m just not big on fighting for sport or exhibitionism.

39

The why is obvious, KUNG FU SUX!!! BJJ RULES.

Next question please.

40

Jon,

You are the only person on this thread getting angry. Don’t become so attatched to your argument that when people disagree with your argument they in turn, become disagreeable to you personally!

I don’t believe the things you say are true because the wieght of the evidence, in my opinion, doesn’t back up your viewpoint. You see it a different way. That’s fine. It doesn’t affect me one way or the other, personally. We disagree. I feel like you are getting frustrated because we refuse to “see the light.” Follow your own advice: there are many paths to the same peak, yes? This is a disagreement over training, not something to get upset over. Martial Arts are a tool to use, whether it be for personal development, martial skill, or a combination of both. Don’t let the tool use you.

Bottom line is that several of us arguing the opposing idea understand what you are saying, but happen to disagree with you. For instance, I have been on the receiving end of LOTS of attacks to the throat, whether by blood choke or wind pipe choke. I’ve dealt with fist chokes where the body weight is completely on the wind pipe and the knuckles are digging into it as deep as they can go. I’ve had forearms burried across my windpipe with great force, and I’ve had people EXPLODE into those chokes as though they were trying to force my windpipe into the back of my neck. Oddly enough, they didn’t end the fight. Neither did the eye-gouge that I enjoyed during a wrestling match in high school, although I will admit to having lost my depth perception for a day. My personal experience tells me that what you say is possible, but not probable. No worries, it’s just different.

I would like to try to return this to the topic: For the record, you still haven’t committed to what that MEANS as far as the original question. You maintain that the “real deal,” isn’t used in ringfighting because the rules are too restrictive. Here is the problem I have with that blanket statement:

If the rules are too restrictive then you are saying one of the following things:

  1. Kung Fu, generally speaking, is too dangerous for use in the ring.

  2. Kung fu, generally speaking, relies on many techniques found outside the realm of kicks, punches, knees, and elbows to the head, midsection and legs, standing grappling and ground grappling. In fact, they rely on these other techniques SO much that the rules inhibit a Kung Fu fighter to the extent that he would have to DRASTICALLY modify what he does so as to be unrecognizable and incoherent as a fighting method and strategy.

Which one of those two things are you trying to say?

That said, you answered the question: You believe it is a betrayal of what the martial arts stand for and symbolize to jump in a ring and fight to see who’s better than who. Fair enough.