BTW - Is Royal Dragon right about striking a grounded opponent being illegal in most MMA venues? I seem to recall Sakuraba (who I think is awesome) standing back and kicking the legs of confused Gracies trying to play their guard.
In PRIDE, you could not strike an opponent that is on all fours if you were standing. However, I believe that has changed (don’t quote me). If you were to lift one hand or foot off the mat, say to grab a leg, though, you could get whacked. I presonally dislike this rule and hope that it HAS changed.
Sakuraba would use this rule to his advantage to turtle, and then they would stand the fighters back up if the other guy decided he didn’t want to go to the ground, but, as I said, I believe that changed.
Now, if you are on your BACK, you can get kicked and punched freely.
Are WWF style elbow drops legal ? 
Braden
You’re right, standup fighting encompasses so much more than what K1 tests, it does not take into account standup grappling at all. K1 I believe is more than kickboxing though, maybe it’s best striker.
Oh ya, the pride rule has changed, you can strike a downed opponent. It’s only the UFC that does not allow it.
Ah… so he could pelt their legs while they were in the guard, but if they turtled he’d have to stop?
That makes sense. Well… it doesn’t make sense, but it explains what I saw, heh.
I still think Sak is great though. He always seems to have control over his center, even though he moves really fast. I don’t see that quality in many of the fighters of those venues.
Depends on the event Paul
Although, thanks to athletic commissions, in most places, elbow strikes to the spine are not allowed. Lord only knows why…
Athletic commissions don’t like blood… and given the danger of blood-borne pathogens, I can understand why…although MMA events tend to be freer than most other events about blood. Anyway, the point is that elbows have this tendency to open cuts up on the face and since that bleeds a lot, the athletic commissions don’t like it.
Ah well.
Braden,
Yup. Some of those guys in Pride and UFC events are kinda ugly to watch… you’ll notice that the better ones have a game plan and some skills though… Sak, Renzo Gracie, Couture, Tito, etc.
To Archangel
I agree with most of what you said.
I’m not arguing the need to test ones skill, I just don’t think you need to do it in a stadium filled with people. Isn’t it enough for you to know where you went wrong or right or how much you improved, or do you need a stadium full of people, of whom most don’t no squat, to lagitimize your progress.
The only difference with the likes of football and basket ball these are occupation, even still there is a whole lot of ego tripin at all these events. But what does that have to do with KF in the MMA.
To Braden,
The windpipe can be crushed just by squeezing it. The problem with these types of techniques is you can kill someone relitively easy. It just takes a split second. Most people would like to avoid going to jail for manslaughter for killing a training partner or anyone else for that matter. Now I’m not saying KF is too deadly for MMA(unless unrestrained), but some of you MMA and grapplers are dissillusioned to think something like that won’t harm you and cause you to cease fighting.
Rules…
Just reading your posts on rules, I can see why this would affect anybody let alone a KF guy.
Unless I “Train to compete” I think I would do poorly in these events. As well my training would take on a whole new methodology. Right now I have no concern for what I can and cant do because of rules, I’m just limited to what I can pull off given the skill of my opponent(at my school). To adjust my training to take “advantage” of certain rules would put me into a gaming mode. Then it becomes no more credible than TKD point sparring. Yes its more brutal, but the rules narrow the scope of reality thus becoming unreal.
There is nothing wrong with MA’ist getting together and testing skills but makeing an event that caters to a crowd just serves to feed the ego. Now maybe some don’t ego trip, but most do.
Maybe people aren’t confident enough of their skills.
I don’t really follow these events, but as far as I can tell each time a KF guy has entered he has lost badly. Sorry if thats not true, please correct me. Muay thai, wrestling BJJ etc have all been proven to be effective in this arena. People are unsure of whether KF is suited to these rules, so who’s going to enter a competition where the rules may or may not be beneficial and EVERYONE who’s gone before them has lost? Who wants to be the next person to be humiliated and bring ridicule on themselves and their art? Why they’ve lost, I don’t know, but I do know this:
KF is based around kicks and punches, yes? Therefore a top level Kung Fu man should be able to fight against any other style using just kicks and punches. (maybe substitute kicks and ounches for basic strikes) OK, you can’t use pressure points, but neither can MT. An example:
Competitor 1: Muay Thai fighter / boxer with groundwork skills.
Competitor 2: Kung Fu guy. No extended groundwork skills.
Now, as I see it , in stand up they are matched, right? people might disagree but that would be a style vs. style debate, and what I am saying is that THERE IS NOTHING IN THE RULES that would give the MT man an advantage, as yes, the more lethal KF techs are outlawed, but still the MT man cannot do anything the KF man cannot. So TECHNICALLY, within the rules, they are matched. Even more so with a boxer, because then his stand up is inferior as far a range of techs goes.
The lack of ground work is something that is a part of KF training in general. But still the KF man should have trained anti takedown techs etc. for entering this type of tournament.
So, as far as I see it, there is nothing in the rules (bearing in mind I only know what I know from conversation) that would give a KF man a disadvantage. Which brings us back to the question. It’s not the rules, IMO. Its the morals, in Jons opinion. Well, I wouldn’t say morals, I would say mindset. If you’ve been trained and have embraced a way of life which discourages violence at all costs, but still fully prepares for it as a worst case scenario, then obviously you are not going to enter a NHB comp. for money. And I would hazard a guess that the really high level practitioners are the ones who have embraced this way of life.
And that’s maybe why there’s no-one from the KF world who’s entered the UFC or similar who’s actually good enough to win.
“Rasslin’s better than kung fu!”
Haven’t we heard enough of this stupid sh*t?
It never goddmn ends, does it? Time and time again someone drags out this dead horse so everyone can have a whack at it. And puh-leeze, don’t give me that “this is a serious inquiry” garbage. (MerryPrankster, you should know better than to pull that old polemic with me, or to resort to ad hominem attacks–which is often the last refuge of someone who doesn’t have facts on their side. And yes, this is a TROLL topic and you fcking well know it.)
Us old-timers (at least as far as KFO is concerned) around here have seen this thread again and again rear its head in some manifestation. This is obviously just another attempt to stir the waters with all the new members we have now. It’s poor form, and beneath you.
Then again…
OK, I read the first few post and I came up with my initial response: because most people entering these things aren’t much more than average MA.
Paul the guy robbing you ate the ATM may not know BJJ, but he may know how to take you down. You should know how to put him down without being taken down. That means fighting grapplers. Fighting kickers, boxers, wrsetles, karate. Tai Kwon Do, Mantis, everybody.
The people displaying their skill in these events I do not relate too, just like I do not relate to the Monks I saw on channel 13 doing cartweels and breaking thin lumber over their heads. I do not relate to the guys swinnging an aluminum foil broadsword either. These guys will always represent MA to the outside world, but they do not represent me and what I study.
I represent myself.
Know this though, there are people training hard, underground, keeping it real.
I want to come out, bring it above ground. That is one of my missions right now. I’m training. The three year goal has been cut to 2. Progress.
Peace
Happy New Year. Don’t let pajamas guys get you down. Find a good sifu, train hard.
Your logic as presented in the first post of this thread is flawed.
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There are legal ramifications to fighthing in the street, and the danger of being cornholed. (Quite true.)
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Therefore, structured fighting in the ring is the only way to test your MA skills. Oh, and by the way, why aren’t there any identifiably good kf stylists who rassle?
Quite wrong. Why must rasslers always default to the ring–an excrebly commercialized venue–to prove their mettle and question the worth of others? And why do they consistently believe that others who don’t want to fight in these cheesy gladitorial contests are by default inferior in mind and body?
It speaks more to the psyche of rasslers (decked out in their colorful Nascar gis) than the efficacy of their style.
But then again, that’s another tenet (dead horse) many rasslers don’t agree with: person over style. For many of them, it’s the reverse, which again speaks to how they view the limitations of the individual over the stylistic “purity” of their style.
Let’s see, you’ve beat this f*cking horse for several pages now. --And I still stand by my first statement. This is a troll topic and it’s a silly way to start off the new year. But then again, I’m slowly but surely becoming inured to the ways and means of rassler mania --especially after seeing this same topic in one manifestation or another for almost a calender year.
As a well-known wag once put it: (was it Chesterton? [sp?]), and to paraphrase: “You are trapped in the well-lit prison of one idea.”
Enough already. Puh-leeze. :rolleyes:
The Horse is DEAD
Isn’t there like 1000 bullets in its head alone
It is no longer alive
It is not twitching
It has slipped of its mortal coil
Leave it in peace, all of you. Or take it to the glue factory.
Although IMHO, every MA should have some knowledge of groundfighting.
ALL STRIKES TO DOWNED OPPONENTS AND THOSE ON ALL FOURS IS NOW LEGAL IN PRIDE, FOR THE LAST 6 MONTHS I BELIEVE
MP, I have lost so much respect for you…haha…just kiddin. Great thread
I’ll have to come back tonight and read all this…just too much to consume at work
for anyone interested in seeing some MMA, goto http://www.sherdog.com/videos.shtm and download some of the videos…i suggest Frank Shamrock, Sakuraba, Vanderlei Silva, Royce Gracie, Igor V…also http://www.superbrawl.tv/multimedia.htm has some complete and good fights
Merryprankster
Im only posting this to let you know my rant was not directed you specificaly so much as the many people who had felt the need to try and take many of the things i had said way out of context.
Your question started off being asked very nicely with little or no disrepect intended.
Following what you had asked i posted some reasons i felt why i personaly hadnt seen kf fighters of a good level in NHB, or more to the point why they dont compete reguarly. Im no authority and never stated i was speaking for the whole KF popuation it was just my opinion.
This was then met by a bombardment of negativtiy and ‘you cant prove that’ type arguments.
Im not out to ‘prove’ anything, i was asked for my ideas i gave them.
My reasons for getting heated are simply that im not sure what the point is of asking for information if you have already made up your mind?
Can you not understand how this might annoy me?
I realise this is not all you but its kind of silly having this whole prove it argument when your talking about seriously hurting people. Ive been hit in preasure points i know what they do, ive personaly used made use of my art and one member of my club managed to fight off six drunk football freaks who were beating up his son by himself. I know my arts work for what i want them to, i dont ask for anything more or expect it. If people WANT to fight in public and in tournaments I have no problem with that. Like it or not though they DO have to adapt to sport and not everyone wants to move away from a styles battlefield roots.
I just dont get this whole if its never been in a ring infront of millions of people it obviously cant be real argument.
Just becouse we dont like to fight for money or ‘who’s the best’ type scenarios does not mean we never test the arts in private against other skilled practioners. Its just its usualy done in a different way and mostly behind closed doors. Sometimes in the spirit of learning or testing and sometimes its just simply a no holds bared fight. People in the latter situtions are often seriously hurt. Not saying I do this personaly im just saying it certainly happens. I know my sifu has had a few challenge matches its fairly common in TCMA.
i just believe that for me its preferable to not adapt an art and fighter for ring fighting, as to me this is not indicative of realistic street self defence. It could even provide the student with a false confort zone.
Also i didnt mean to offend anyone with my whole moral stand on public violence. Ive said many times i have no problem with NHB its just… for me, its against my morals and not my thing.
Braden
We may just have to agree to disagree on this whole eye throat thing, ive been hit in the eye lightly during sparring and it stopped me in my tracks. Certainly long enough to be exploited badly if i was on the street. I could also say the same for my personal experience with being hit in neck. Ive never been hit hard and i really would not want to be.
Budokan…nevermind
Sports combat is not street combat. And I don’t think anybody would say that it was. But it certainly wouldn’t do any harm being a good tourney fighter against most of the *******s on our streets and in our pubs. But you got to have trained realistically too.
Gang members
Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]Apprentice, royal dragon;
They have a word for “good morals,” in the combative sport scene. It’s called “sportsmanship,” and my wrestling coaches and BJJ instructor won’t have it any other way.
[/B]
Problem is at any BJJ tourney you will see tons of gang tats. But wait, Japanese Yakuza practice Goju Ryu karate (+ others) the triads practice wing tsun. So I guess it is not that different.
In the early 70s at the time what was called full contact karate was the way of testing things.
Names like Mike Stone, Bob Wallace, Jeff Smith and many others where just as known as those now for the other combative events.
The kung fu people that I knew at that time where busy adapting what they did to the ring. In many instances I think this adaptation really deconstructed their style. How many times have people wondered or asked why doesn’t KF look like KF when used. I think part of the reason is that the adaptation by teachers to make their art more in tune with the times.
instead of training and developing their style they trained for the next event. is it the same ?
The post that I read concerning KF or CMA seems to me to be made by people who have never really had a chance to feel or see good CMA in action. I can appreciate the skill and power of those that do compete in these events but also notice that claims of world championships usually leave out China and other places.