[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1093500]((Kanazawa was/is good. He also started doing taichi to become softer, if I recall correctly))
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Indeed, as did Oyama, Nakayama and many others.
[QUOTE=trubblman;1093619]That’s one of the most laughable comments I have ever heard on here. Maybe I am misreading this but if you know FMA who arent good fighters unarmed then you dont know that many. My experience with FMA people is that they tend to be very effective without weapons.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you did misunderstand.
Perhaps I wasn’t as clear as I could have been.
FMA that go directly from armed to unarmed are NOT as effective as fighters that start off stricly empty hand.
The “armed to unarmed” relation needs to be modified.
As for who I know that are FMA- my exposure has been to Pekiti-trisia, and the Inosanto line and the DBMA.
And while there is a “pig headness” on the PT line about empty hand work ( by some), the consensus from the people I have meet in the DBMA and Inosanto line is that while empty hand work does translate some FROM the armed work ( in particular the stick work), it is not AS effective as focusing primarily on empty hand, which is of course common sense.
[QUOTE=trubblman;1093621]It is well documented that the ultimate goal of most chinese martial arts was not fighting prowess ‘per se’.[/QUOTE]
Please, do tell about this “well documented” view.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;1093620]yip man wanted people to go and fight with Vt, it is well known that his better fighters got more attention[/QUOTE]
And you of course heard that from the man himself?? Thought not. 
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093617]Agreed to a point, but I’m asking why YOU want to fight?? When there are other skillsets to train that develop this ability.
And FWIW I think self defense and fighting ARE polar opposites. There is nothing in my self defence manual that justifies maiming or seriously injuring my attacker. A simple running technique normally works!! :D[/QUOTE]
Point 2 first. I agree, self defense and fighting are polar opposites. Fighting is what happens when you self defense fails.
As for the maiming or seriously injuring your attacker, what makes you think you have the skills and ability to maim someone? That is hubris and is usually the sign of a person who doesn’t fight/spar/roll as a part of their training. Humility is a major by product of competitive training because you learn how easy it is to lose. Your maiming skills are just a part of your imagination.
I want to fight and train to fight for a bunch of reasons.
That is why I train an art that allows me to roll and compete with effective techniques that can be applied safely to my opponent / training partner.
I roll because it is very satisfying win or lose.
I roll because in today’s society it’s good to have a place where you can test yourself physically against partners of different skill levels.
I roll because its fun and I roll because it helps keep the demons at bay.
People are the products of millions of years of evolution and just because we consider ourselves civilized it doesn’t mean those primitive urges don’t exist. Rolling gives me a way to satisfy those urges in a safe environment with like minded people.
I like rolling because it makes me feel superior to those people who don’t train. (Not a good reason but it’s true).
I roll for the sense of accomplishment and the sense of failure. Because it feels good to strive and overcome and because losing shows you where you need to improve and keeps your head from getting too big.
I roll because it hardens you up. Grappling is a physical intense exercise with the mental aspect of chess.
I roll because it gives me a good foundation for self defense. And no I don’t buy into the BJJ is a complete martial art propaganda.
I roll because it is good to get primitive some times.
This was an honest answer and I hope that clears some things for you.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093635]Indeed, as did Oyama, Nakayama and many others.[/QUOTE]
This is the reason I have always liked the Okinawan styles more, I think. Particularly Shorin Ryu.
They seem to be what we would consider soft-hard styles. Most likely due to their White Crane influence.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093643]And you of course heard that from the man himself?? Thought not. :([/QUOTE]
And where did you hear about the weapons leading the system? From the man himself? Thought not.
Don’t play superiority games pretending that your lineage and knowledge of Wing Chun is more complete or something.
I know how to create a thread in order to try and get people to see my lineage-superior-non-fighting world view, too. I choose not to (and I choose to fight, too).
Down the lineage chain, many people have quoted Ip Man telling people not to believe him and test what he is teaching out for themselves. To me, that reeks of a Sifu promoting individualistic growth and self-reliance in his students.
[QUOTE=JamesC;1093646]This is the reason I have always liked the Okinawan styles more, I think. Particularly Shorin Ryu.
They seem to be what we would consider soft-hard styles. Most likely due to their White Crane influence.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, my exposure to Okinawan Goju and even Uechi ryu, made me realize truly how much the southern systems influenced them at the “advanced levels”, systems like Hung Kuen, Southern Mantis, Fukien White crane, Five ancestors and such.
[QUOTE=couch;1093634]Ah! You’ve discovered something.
Wing Chun training {often does not equal} ability to fight.
So where’s the missing link? Not some Sifu. It’s the training approach itself.[/QUOTE]
I disagree AND agree. YES it is totally down to the individual to take his/her training to a level that enables quality sparring/fighting as it is the student who has to turn up at the hall and train. BUT I think the role of the Sifu and kung fu brothers/sisters is just as important.
-
The Sifu will have a set curriculum for such competitive purposes (if he believes in competition!) and will be able to work on an individual basis with the student to create a competitive fighting machine. Again, I personally don’t think you will find a Traditional Sifu who will do this, especially if he is of Chinese origin.
-
Without a constant stream of new and skilled training partners you will never achieve your best level or standard to compete.
Again, I personally would pferer to pass on students to a fight camp per se as I think they will develop more quickly for sports orientated comps there than they will doing SLT for 5 years. 
[QUOTE=m1k3;1093644]As for the maiming or seriously injuring your attacker, what makes you think you have the skills and ability to maim someone? That is hubris and is usually the sign of a person who doesn’t fight/spar/roll as a part of their training. Humility is a major by product of competitive training because you learn how easy it is to lose. Your maiming skills are just a part of your imagination.[/QUOTE]
Tell me if it’s part of may imagination if I have actually been there and done that? Do I have to have served in the Armed forces to have seriously hurt anyone? Or do I now need to produce a clip or photos??
Seriously too, I believe I am humble, and if I’m honest it was only a few occassions but enough to make me re-think my reasons for training Martial Arts and the importance of self defence (ie. do not hurt the attacker!!)
[QUOTE=m1k3;1093644]I want to fight and train to fight for a bunch of reasons…
…This was an honest answer and I hope that clears some things for you.:)[/QUOTE]
Thanks for actually answering the original question, and I for one appreciate the honesty.
[QUOTE=couch;1093653]Don’t play superiority games pretending that your lineage and knowledge of Wing Chun is more complete or something.[/QUOTE]
Wasn’t my intention, but why shouldn’t I??? 
Lee Shings Wing Chun is very very underestimated because he was not a commercial Sifu and my own Sifu learnt directly from him for over 35 years whilst working in his restaurants and developing charitable activities for Londons Chinese Community. So, I personally believe what I have seen IS more complete than others out there. I’m not saying superior, but I will say more complete!! 
[QUOTE=couch;1093653]Down the lineage chain, many people have quoted Ip Man telling people not to believe him and test what he is teaching out for themselves. To me, that reeks of a Sifu promoting individualistic growth and self-reliance in his students.[/QUOTE]
Yes it does, and it also ‘reeks’ of a Sifu who washes his hands of his teachings, he can always blame you for your own mistakes. But he didn’t teach everyone in this manner, so I’m told. My point is, we can never know what he said because too many do not even believe his closest students or even his own sons words!! I’m trying to be realistic here.
And no, I wasn’t told that empty hand originates from our weaponry by Ip Man either, but I do believe that my Sigung was taught that way, as it was taught to my Sifu who taught the same idea to me and every student he teaches. And actually across the board the Lee Shing family teach that way. It’s just that some have not been as public as others.
I know it all sounds a bit ‘lineage proud’, but hell, shoot me for being loyal 
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093637]Yes, you did misunderstand.
Perhaps I wasn’t as clear as I could have been.
FMA that go directly from armed to unarmed are NOT as effective as fighters that start off stricly empty hand.
The “armed to unarmed” relation needs to be modified.
As for who I know that are FMA- my exposure has been to Pekiti-trisia, and the Inosanto line and the DBMA.
And while there is a “pig headness” on the PT line about empty hand work ( by some), the consensus from the people I have meet in the DBMA and Inosanto line is that while empty hand work does translate some FROM the armed work ( in particular the stick work), it is not AS effective as focusing primarily on empty hand, which is of course common sense.[/QUOTE]
I believe and agree with you sanjuro. Some styles though are more conducive to development of good stand-up empty hand skills than others. Some factors will include the preferred range and style of fighting and more importantly the training method used by the style.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093616]Sorry but you are mistaken imho. Wing Chun competitions are not universal. Fighting UFC style in a cage is universal. I’ve always thought the best place for Wing Chun fighting is in the officiallly sanctioned Sanda (Sanshou) arena, but that’s just me.
[/QUOTE]
Of course WC competitions are “not universal”. Actually they are “not existent” throughout most of the populated world. sanda/sanshou is a decent arena.
Beacuse I’ve had the fight trained out of me by now! I no longer have the hunger to taste blood my friend, that died a while ago when people got seriously hurt. :o
You know they actually make gear whereby you can train without getting seriously injured. I know this is virtually unknown to the WC world, but just throwing it out there.
Have you trained stamina of your Wing Chun sansau? Constantly applied under pressured attacks from numerous individuals? Let’s say 108 times in one go? If not, why not? I think that assesses your skill in application more so than one on one but that’s just my opinion.
Not following here. This sounds kind of weird. What do you mean by “trained stamina of your Wing Chun sansau?” English please.
Are you talking about sparring sessions with multiple opponents? Sure. Hate to break this to you but a lot of times striking coaches who train fighters seem to find all sorts of diabolical ways to deplete your oxygen supply during sessions.
That deserves no response whatsoever. Good luck at your own wheel turning masquerades.
It deserves no response because you have no intelligent response? Seriously, outside of at least sparring with known quality opponents who can fight, how exactly is it that you measure quality in a fighting art?
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1093741]You know they actually make gear whereby you can train without getting seriously injured. I know this is virtually unknown to the WC world, but just throwing it out there.[/QUOTE]
What you mention here had a massive impact on forming my earlier opinions of competitive fighting when I was younger, and I feel it is still very relevant today.
If you feel no/less pain sparring because of said pads etc are you actually training for real or creating bad habits?
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1093741]Are you talking about sparring sessions with multiple opponents?[/QUOTE]
Yes. Let’s say the infamous tan da against 108 different attacks
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1093741]It deserves no response because you have no intelligent response? Seriously, outside of at least sparring with known quality opponents who can fight, how exactly is it that you measure quality in a fighting art?[/QUOTE]
That’s exactly my point, why are we so hellbent on labeling Wing Chun as a fighting art? Why do we have to fight eachother to prove what we do will work well enough in a real situation?
You only know it’s real when it’s real. No competition can emulate that ‘real-ness’ :eek:
You only know it’s real when it’s real. No competition can emulate that ‘real-ness’
True, but they get far closer than anything else.
qft
,
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093767]True, but they get far closer than anything else.[/QUOTE]
I accept that 100% Always have.
But why?? Especially when most of the older, maybe more traditional Martial Arts say otherwise?
I was first taught Shotokan, and something I was told on the first day had a massive impression (again I was 9!) It was my first Sensei who said “If you want to be Bruce Lee, leave now because we don’t teach you to fight others or your fellow students, we teach you to fight yourself”
My only Wing Chun Sifu said something very similar, using the analogy that Martial Arts is specifically for self development, conquering your own demons if you like through training, not fighting. Learning how to help the helpless etc etc
Looking over the thread, many people are talking of sparring scenarios and how it helps their art or makes them feel good/better/safer etc but I still view sparring as a light and protected (pads etc) activity. It isn’t ‘real’ and never will be.
It’s not the best way to judge your Wing Chun skill imhhhhho but is is ONE way, I’m not arguing that point. The best way is through the curriculum and that should (and commonly does) include weaponry. That is where we’re all heading. The peak of the mountain imho. Not empty hand pattacake drills… :o
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093656]I disagree AND agree. YES it is totally down to the individual to take his/her training to a level that enables quality sparring/fighting as it is the student who has to turn up at the hall and train. BUT I think the role of the Sifu and kung fu brothers/sisters is just as important.
[/QUOTE]
So what exactly is that role if they don’t train quality sparring / fighting in class?
- The Sifu will have a set curriculum for such competitive purposes (if he believes in competition!) and will be able to work on an individual basis with the student to create a competitive fighting machine. Again, I personally don’t think you will find a Traditional Sifu who will do this, especially if he is of Chinese origin.
This is simply handled in fighting schools. They have a “regular” class, and a “competition” class. Or if numbers are low and time slots are scarce, they split “regular” class into groups, and people spar with their same level skill.
- Without a constant stream of new and skilled training partners you will never achieve your best level or standard to compete.
Without classes set up with a realistic goal there is nothing attracting new and skilled training partners.
Again, I personally would pferer to pass on students to a fight camp per se as I think they will develop more quickly for sports orientated comps there than they will doing SLT for 5 years.
Only elite level fighters have “fight camps”. They need $$$ to bring in training partners and specific coaches including strength and conditioning, technique specialists, nutritionists. There are many, many resources being deployed to focus on one person.
This is not the model for any amateur level competitor. The lower level competitors rise up out of regular classes to competition oriented classes. There you still have usually one resource as a trainer focused on many people.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1093803]So what exactly is that role if they don’t train quality sparring / fighting in class?[/QUOTE]
Do you train Wing Chun??
From memory there were five areas of training that was considered mandatory.
- Form
- Equipment
- Interaction
- Weaponry
- Language & literature
Sparring falls into the ‘interactive’ bracket which also includes the basics like Chisau, Looksau etc. So as you can see there is plenty to get on with, and everything ‘should’ benefit your overall performance ability, whether that be fighting in comps or demonstrating in front of The Queen! If not, something has gone wrong imho.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1093803]Only elite level fighters have “fight camps”. They need $$$ to bring in training partners and specific coaches including strength and conditioning, technique specialists, nutritionists. There are many, many resources being deployed to focus on one person.[/QUOTE]
Now THAT’S what I’m talking about and this would be my approach if I was to start a career in coaching fighters (which I would never do!) But we have regular posters on here who claim to be the bees kness at fighting with their Wing Chun yet can not show any evidence that they take this approach. Actually, few can supply clips of themselves!
Which brings me to the question, why do you want to fight?
The answer imhhho should be FOR MONEY!!!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093800]I accept that 100% Always have.
But why?? Especially when most of the older, maybe more traditional Martial Arts say otherwise?
I was first taught Shotokan, and something I was told on the first day had a massive impression (again I was 9!) It was my first Sensei who said “If you want to be Bruce Lee, leave now because we don’t teach you to fight others or your fellow students, we teach you to fight yourself”
My only Wing Chun Sifu said something very similar, using the analogy that Martial Arts is specifically for self development, conquering your own demons if you like through training, not fighting. Learning how to help the helpless etc etc
Looking over the thread, many people are talking of sparring scenarios and how it helps their art or makes them feel good/better/safer etc but I still view sparring as a light and protected (pads etc) activity. It isn’t ‘real’ and never will be.
It’s not the best way to judge your Wing Chun skill imhhhhho but is is ONE way, I’m not arguing that point. The best way is through the curriculum and that should (and commonly does) include weaponry. That is where we’re all heading. The peak of the mountain imho. Not empty hand pattacake drills… :o[/QUOTE]
I retired from competition when the demands where too much for me and my family.
For some, like Dale Franks, they compete will into their 100’s
But before I retired I had competed in full contact formats of different types for almost 20 years ( one and off).
I truly do NOT think that you can develop your MA to THAT level without it.