Wanna Fight? - Real Mentality?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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QUESTION: People who really want to FIGHT- what do they flock to? I’m not asking why…I’m asking what, today, do they flock to? My answer is Muay Thai & BJJ or some MMA style

The real question on this forum should be - why do they flock to that?

My answer - Because of the mentality, the toughness, of the TRAINING. Do you think the FIGHTERS of old, the one’s who used Wing Chun on the street (or any kung fu / traditional art) trained like Muay Thai or BJJ fighters do today? I’d say yes, and even harder than anyone knows today…they pressure tested it in real situations.

When I was younger (I’m 30 now) I trained 2-4 hours per night, hardcore, with others who had egos and and who brought tough mentalities to the table. I went to a professional job with black eys…and hmmmm…why did I stop?

I’m prompted to write tonight because I was watching some of my Muay Thai fights on tape and I was inspired. I only train in Wing Chun now, and I love it, but I feel something is lacking. I know what’s lacking - it’s the mentality in the class!

HOW DO WE GET THE BAD ASS MENTALITY BACK INTO WING CHUN???

It used to be there and I’m not asking for me. I’m asking for the future of our art. I’m asking how do we get the people who want to win on the street back into our ranks?

Any thoughts?

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I think the world has changed and some people are living in the past. The real world as I hear from police and the news is multiple opponents who are armed (ten on one), a lot of knife attacks and shooting is also on the increase in Vancouver. Shooting , home invasions and drive bys are the in thing today. You can be as tough as you like but there are easy ways to take out tough guys. Real world fighting isn’t a fair ring contest. Real world fighting is dirty stuff. Kung Fu started to deteriorate when the gun became popular after the boxer rebellion.

Maybe if Wing Chun becomes a ring sport as the money in MMA tournaments increase to boxing levels then more people will want to be super tough Wing Chun fighters in that. However I doubt Wing Chun people will have any advantage in those kinds of fights. One is better off to train Thai boxing, submission wrestling, BJJ etc. for that. Maybe those things will even get outlawed the first time someone dies in those.

Actually my first Wing Chun teacher who was a Yip Man student was already into rough and tough training with running and body toughening by hitting because he wanted to find some good people to fight the Thais in the 1970s. He was aware of how the Thais trained and wanted to incorporate those methods into Wing Chun. But he never found any good talent willing to risk fighting the Thais. His plan was to make a lot of money in the betting part of it.

Ray

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Wilson wrote:

QUESTION: People who really want to FIGHT- what do they flock to? I’m not asking why…I’m asking what, today, do they flock to? My answer is Muay Thai & BJJ or some MMA style

The real question on this forum should be - why do they flock to that?

My answer - Because of the mentality, the toughness, of the TRAINING.

**Very perceptive. Now ask yourself why so many are attracted to WCK. IME for two main reasons: 1) Bruce Lee and 2) the “designed” for a woman myth and what surrounds it. In other words, for fantasy reasons. And, of course, there will always be folks willing to take your money so that you can live your fantasy.

YongChun wrote:

I think the world has changed and some people are living in the past. The real world as I hear from police and the news is multiple opponents who are armed (ten on one), a lot of knife attacks and shooting is also on the increase in Vancouver. Shooting , home invasions and drive bys are the in thing today. You can be as tough as you like but there are easy ways to take out tough guys. Real world fighting isn’t a fair ring contest. Real world fighting is dirty stuff. Kung Fu started to deteriorate when the gun became popular after the boxer rebellion.

**LOL! I don’t think WCK came into being until around that time. :wink: True the world has changed; self-defense is much, much more than being able to fight. But our ancestors, if the stories are to be believed, weren’t doing tons of self-defense but more challenge matches anyway. IMO fighting methods have, and will always be, a part of human activity because fighting is part of our nature. As part of our nature, we’ll always find ways to do it.

Maybe if Wing Chun becomes a ring sport as the money in MMA tournaments increase to boxing levels then more people will want to be super tough Wing Chun fighters in that. However I doubt Wing Chun people will have any advantage in those kinds of fights.

**Most people, the overwhelming majority, that box or do BJJ or muay thai aren’t “super tough” tournament fighters – but they are all fighters since they fight as part of their training. And they want to fight: that’s why they took up a fighting method in the first place. IME WCK has distinct advantages when fighting MMAists, boxers, etc., particularly in that they are not experienced in dealing with what we do (yet) since they never face it.

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HOW DO WE GET THE BAD ASS MENTALITY BACK INTO WING CHUN???

this has been what Gary has pounded into our heads ,

there is a saying 30% of wing Chun can rule the world

this used to make him sick , it just makes wing Chun people lazy

he said if wing chun people had the ‘’ spirit ‘’ of the Thai’s in there approach to training , you would see wing chun as it was ment to be

now Thai can be changed to any other word , like boxing , BJJ ,anything that trains with the intensity and burning desire to be the best that person can be

yes even if you only have a few hours a week

better 1 great hour then 10 spent talking and pondering the mysteries of the ancients or keeping your uniform tidy

but there is also a question you have to ask yourself since this is a striking art not a sub mission art , how long are you willing to go hardcore ? when do you say ok I’m still in shape but it’s taking its toll on my body and it sucks to be hurt and not be able to train ,

now I agree you will never get that real hardened fighter mind until you fight and drop people , you need to feel it and have the confidence in your ability to put a man down

until you really do there will always be a small voice of self doubt

but once you have achieved it, in the street or during sparring

at what point do you say ok all I have to do is maintain my tools , keep my conditioning up and have fun

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However I doubt Wing Chun people will have any advantage in those kinds of fights. One is better off to train Thai boxing, submission wrestling, BJJ etc. for that.

Shoudn’t wing chun work anywhere? If not, maybe all those arts are just all-around better?* What is it that’s separating the winners from the losers if its not the art?

*I hardly think they are! But…

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Re: Wanna Fight? - Real Mentality?

Originally posted by Wilson
HOW DO WE GET THE BAD ASS MENTALITY BACK INTO WING CHUN???

IMHO, the individual puts it there. The individual has to have the goal and drive to have the ‘Bad ass mentality’, and many do not. You say ‘those who want to fight’, and FWIW there is a smaller percentage of WCers that adopt the ‘want to fight’ mentality and use the ‘will fight if I have to’ one. Where is the acceptance of fighting as a goal? That is where you will find the ones who want to train in WC to be good at fighting.

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Street fight is not Bar fight is not Ring fight is not Spar is not Forms. Yes there is some carryover in skills, but that does not mean much when you get down to it.

Fighting in the street when you are being attacked with odd ball weapons and multiple attackers, not to mention somebody trying to run you over with a car.. well heck it just sucks. Why would you want to risk your life like that? When any one of them can just pull a gun and waste you? If you want to be a bad a$s on the street go to private security (Merc) training not a Dojo. Learn to kill and maim quickly. Wear your bullet proof suit. Carry three guns and a couple knives. Have that can of mace ready, next to the stun gun. Now you are ready for the street of today (and jail tomorrow).

Bar fights are usually just quick drunken brawls. Bouncing drunks is pretty easy for the most part. Being the drunk can be rough, but its pretty rare to see weapons drawn… Mostly it’s bash each other a little then go to the next bar. Or if it’s a pub, buy the next round for the guy.

Ring fighting I can’t really comment on, I have only done that a couple times. But in a ring you both know the rules and have agreed to abide by them to a point. No ripping out the guys eyes or that kind of stuff.

Spar can range from weak sauce to hard core full contact. It’s an opportunity to work with a partner and improve. It is not a competition or at least I don’t think it should be one. You spar to build up speed and skills. You help your partner to learn and visa versa.

Doing technique is building the muscle memory and mind set of your ART. It really is an art folks. Enjoy the beauty of it, the flow of your body, your understanding of your environment, the moving meditation… You see for me martial arts are more interesting than sitting on a mat going Ooooommmmm. But I am doing it in the hopes of being able to maintain an enlightend state, while enjoying the life long journey.

Wilson, I would suggest you take a real hard look at what is driving you toward the negitive side of martial arts. What fear makes you want to be so violent? If you want to be able to take on multiple attackers effectivly then go buy a can of mace (and train to use it correctly).
/rant off

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Originally posted by t_niehoff

**Very perceptive. Now ask yourself why so many are attracted to WCK. IME for two main reasons: 1) Bruce Lee and 2) the “designed” for a woman myth and what surrounds it. In other words, for fantasy reasons. And, of course, there will always be folks willing to take your money so that you can live your fantasy.

In my case it was Bruce Lee’s green book to start. After that I met a Yip Man student by the name of Patrick Chow. He showed me how all my wrestling, Karate, Hung style and Tai Chi training was completely useless against him. So a hands on demonstration with me trying all kinds of things convinced me to study this art. I sam him do the same to lots of the other students who all had about 8 to 10 years of experience in different arts.

So what he knew was more than I knew. I had no idea if he could beat Thai boxers or not so I didn’t judge him on that. But even if he couldn’t , he still beat me with ease so why did I need to look further than that. To achieve what he did was good enough for me.

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Whoa…

I didn’t say I want to be violent…and I’m certainly not exploring the negative side of the martial arts. I believe, like you, that hard training and the flow of your movement is a process of meditation.

I might have used harsher words than necessary regarding “street fighting” or being a “bad ass”, but my point is really just on the mentality difference between the majority of practicioners of some arts compared to the mentality of the majority of people training in Wing Chun. Its just my stereotypical impressions made by training with people from different arts. Is this a problem? Will it be a problem? Does this need to be stressed more and can it be done through training?

Just because you have a tough mentallity doesn’t mean you need to fight, that’s not what I mean totally - I used that because it is a martial arts forum. Learning this mentality in Wing Chun training should carry to other parts of your life. Donald Trump has a tough mentality, Tiger Woods has a tough mentality, etc… Winners in anything have a tough mentality - in business, in sports, in sparring, and if it comes to it - on the street.

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Originally posted by Wilson
[B]QUESTION: People who really want to FIGHT- what do they flock to? I’m not asking why…I’m asking what, today, do they flock to? My answer is Muay Thai & BJJ or some MMA style

The real question on this forum should be - why do they flock to that?

My answer - Because of the mentality, the toughness, of the TRAINING. [/B]

What is the question?
What do they flock to or Why do they flock to that?

These are complex questions even they look straight forward.

For Why do they flock to, if we look at the spiral dynamic conscious model of human, we might be able to figure out why.

Cyclical Double-Helix Model of Adult BioPsychoSocial Systems Development

BEIGE (World1)-Survival/meeting biological needs/instinctive drives & urges

BEIGE / PURPLE Awakening of a sense of dependent self in a mysterious and frightening world where being with others means safety

PURPLE (World2)-Safety/tribal needs/adherence to ritual/obeying chief(s)/harmony/reciprocity

PURPLE / RED Awakening of an egocentric self determined to break the shackles of the family or tribe and become a powerful individual

RED (World3)-Power/action/excitement/proving individual prowess/shame/cunning dominance

RED / BLUE Awakening of a purposeful self with guilt in search of meaning in a purposeful existence and reasons why we live and die

BLUE (World4)-Purpose/obedience to authority/stability/rules/meaning/guilt/duty

BLUE / ORANGE Awakening of a pragmatic, independence-seeking self who challenges higher authority and scientifically tests possibilities

ORANGE (World5)-Competition/success/making things better/autonomy/adroit control/growth

ORANGE / GREEN Awakening of a sociocentric self who strives for belonging and acceptance and needs to discover spirit, inner harmony, peace

GREEN (World6)-Affiliation/sustainability/collaboration/consciousness/fulfillment/sharing/connections

GREEN / YELLOW Awakening of an inquiring, interdependent self who no longer needs approval yet can collaborate when appropriate with diminishing compulsions or fears

Shift from First Tier SUBSISTENCE SYSTEMS to Second TIER BEING levels (see FAQ for comments)

YELLOW (World7)-Being/functionality/discovery/integralism/responsibilities of living/connections

YELLOW / TURQUOISE Awakening of experiential self who seeks ways of being that use knowledge to restore natural harmony and balance

TURQUOISE (World8 )-Experience of holism/accept existential realities/integration of life energies

What do they flock to will then be what is available to satisfy thier needs.

IE: a person with survival consciousness live in a world/society of — A BEIGE (World1)-Survival/meeting biological needs/instinctive drives & urges.

will require a tool different with a person of

PURPLE (World2)-Safety/tribal needs/adherence to ritual/obeying chief(s)/harmony/reciprocity

and different with a person of ----- RED (World3) Power/action/excitement/proving individual prowess/shame/cunning dominance

As for HOW DO WE GET THE BAD ASS MENTALITY BACK INTO WING CHUN???

That also can link to the spiral dynamic model. What type of “world” one live in and needs, what type of the conscious one has?

Wing Chun is a ‘brand name’ where different types of people practice differently in the past, present, future , and locations. BAD ASS MENTALITY of different type of Human consciousness as in the spiral dynamic model is defined differently.

A BAD ASS in A GREEN (World6)-Affiliation/sustainability/collaboration/consciousness/fulfillment/sharing/connections

will look like a BAMBI for those who lives in a PURPLE (World2)-Safety/tribal needs/adherence to ritual/obeying chief(s)/harmony/reciprocity

Thus, Fighting for survival, Fighting for safety, Fighting to gain power, Fighting to compete.. all have different related mentality.

Will a person was born, raise, and educate in a
GREEN (World6)–.Affiliation/sustainability/collaboration/consciousness/fulfillment/sharing/connections

understand, capable of exercuting, practical or appropriate to behave what belongs to the BEIGE (World1)-Survival/meeting biological needs/instinctive drives & urges?

What kind of Wing Chun do one learn? What kind of Wing Chun one wants to learn? What kind of Wing Chun one needs to learn?
do you trained with complete your move totally or do you trained with not complete your move?

IE: do you completed a full Biu Jee to other’s qqq, do you completed a full Biu Jee to other’s qqq and hold there for a while. Or do you never complete you Biu Jee to other’s qqq? What is your training? what is your habit? What is acceptable by you? What is appropriate for your society? Is it about want to FIGHT or is it about want to drop the other guy? There are legal responsibility one has to be seriously aware off in different location of the world.

CAN ONE BRING THE BAD ASS MENTALITY OF 1850 back into Wing Chun? Do one want to bring the Survival consciousness of 1850 where KILLING others is for survival, Getting trouble with Qing gorverment in Canton means fleet off and hide in South East Asia back to 2004?

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Ahhh, the Pheonix rises from the ashes of ‘goodbye’. It is good to see that you have not been consumed by the fire.:smiley:

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Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Ahhh, the Pheonix rises from the ashes of ‘goodbye’. It is good to see that you have not been consumed by the fire.:smiley:

it will turn into yellowpikachu soon!

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Originally posted by Wilson
[B]Whoa…

I didn’t say I want to be violent…and I’m certainly not exploring the negative side of the martial arts. I believe, like you, that hard training and the flow of your movement is a process of meditation.

I might have used harsher words than necessary regarding “street fighting” or being a “bad ass”, but my point is really just on the mentality difference between the majority of practicioners of some arts compared to the mentality of the majority of people training in Wing Chun. Its just my stereotypical impressions made by training with people from different arts. Is this a problem? Will it be a problem? Does this need to be stressed more and can it be done through training?

Just because you have a tough mentallity doesn’t mean you need to fight, that’s not what I mean totally - I used that because it is a martial arts forum. Learning this mentality in Wing Chun training should carry to other parts of your life. Donald Trump has a tough mentality, Tiger Woods has a tough mentality, etc… Winners in anything have a tough mentality - in business, in sports, in sparring, and if it comes to it - on the street. [/B]

Sorry. I was reacting as much to your post as the other threads here about fighting. It’s one of those dry land swimming things :slight_smile:

I also decry the weak nature of most martial arts training, but the truth is the vast majority of people can’t handle hard core training. I am not talking about training where you get hurt, but training where you are challenged every session to do the best you possibly can. It takes a really special coach/sifu/master/whatever to provide that kind of training.

For example my college fencing team had a 30+ year history of winning. We were expected to take first place, and Coach made it very clear that if you were not in it to win then you needed to get gone. People dropped like flies, but the ones who stayed did things that were way beyond what they thought they could do. My success in business has more to do with her training than anything else I learned at university. All that said, she would never be able to run a salle for profit. They are totally different mind sets.

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Re: Wanna Fight? - Real Mentality?

Originally posted by Wilson
Do you think the FIGHTERS of old, the one’s who used Wing Chun on the street …

One cannot “think” what others " think" which is not in the same consciousness. IMHO. Unless one is living in that consciousness.

IMHO, thinking about Warrior or Figther… ect are just fantasy in the movie theather. There is no FIGHTERS in the conscious of survivals. There is only Predator or Prey and the weapon needed to survive. which one one wants to be? what do one willing to do? HOw far do one capable to strech?

My choice is I rather hope everyone live in a peacefull and sharing world with mutual respect where poverty is not a default. Evolve into that instead of go back to live in a Survivals world.

Thus, I rather to live in a democratic world and to be a Bambi and watching those movies with Warrior and Fighters. Serious. The price to be living in survival edge might be too high that I cannot afford and Fighter doenst exist there.

Are you capable to be a predetor or a prey? Well, with the world today, we might not have to chose but decide we want to live a good happy life and knowing some art named Wing Chun but will never use it. That is the blessing — never has to use it.

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This thread explains the cultural, and, dare I say it, spritual differences between the way Muay Thai is practiced in Thailand. and, well, whatever it is that you do in the West:

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/samboboy.html

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Interesting reading about the Thai training method. That’s why they won against all the Kung Fu fighters and Japanese fighters in the 70’s. A sophisticated art without the hard work that the Thais put in, won’t do the job in the Ring.

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Re: Wanna Fight? - Real Mentality?

Originally posted by Wilson
[B]QUESTION: People who really want to FIGHT- what do they flock to? I’m not asking why…I’m asking what, today, do they flock to? My answer is Muay Thai & BJJ or some MMA style

The real question on this forum should be - why do they flock to that?

My answer - Because of the mentality, the toughness, of the TRAINING.

I would say training and training methods. When done properly,that instills the other two that you mentioned. I have a saying - tma train for a possibility, whereas we train for an inevitablilty.

you MAY have to use your skill in the street. I WILL have to use mine in the ring. Consequently, I will likely have more focus because I will have to fight. no maybe about it.

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Great article!
The other day I watched a Thai boxing fight and I must say it was **** impressive. It seems to be a very complete art. The throws that they use are very quick and effective. There are also way more tools and techniques that Thai boxers can use.

Yong Chun
“A sophisticated art without the hard work that the Thais put in, won’t do the job in the Ring.”

Hmmm, I would say that the chances of beating a Thai boxer are just as slim “out of the ring” than “in the ring”.

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Originally posted by Miles Teg
[B]

Yong Chun
“A sophisticated art without the hard work that the Thais put in, won’t do the job in the Ring.”

Hmmm, I would say that the chances of beating a Thai boxer are just as slim “out of the ring” than “in the ring”. [/B]

True enough. Ray

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Originally posted by t_niehoff
IME WCK has distinct advantages when fighting MMAists, boxers, etc., particularly in that they are not experienced in dealing with what we do (yet) since they never face it.

Don’t forget that that coin can be flipped over. Also, don’t forget that “having more tools” doesn’t necessarily translate to a distinct advantage.