I know this may be a boring subject to most who post here, but I thought I would ask why so many of you feel like fighting is the goal of your Wing Chun training?
Whether it’s street fighting or competitive fighting, why do you want to take Wing Chun into that domain in the first place? Who told you that fighting others (and your own family!) is what training Wing Chun is about? How much do you get charged to learn how to beat your brothers and sisters?
And I have to end by asking if you would teach your own children the same?
Because Wing Chun is a martial art and not a martial dance.
Even if you ‘only’ train for self defence you need to know that what you practice will stand up to pressure. How will you know it really works if you don’t test drive it?
[QUOTE=CFT;1093370]Because Wing Chun is a martial art and not a martial dance.
Even if you ‘only’ train for self defence you need to know that what you practice will stand up to pressure. How will you know it really works if you don’t test drive it?[/QUOTE]
I understand that you relate ‘art and dance’ as polar opposites??? Hmmm…
As for this ‘pressure testing’ malarky, this is why I ask!! What pressure test!?
So you feel that you need to test your Wing Chun in a competition with rules? What for exactly? And why learn Wing Chun to do that when there are so many other arts out there these days that ONLY do the competitive thing?
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093393]I understand that you relate ‘art and dance’ as polar opposites??? Hmmm…
As for this ‘pressure testing’ malarky, this is why I ask!! What pressure test!?
So you feel that you need to test your Wing Chun in a competition with rules? What for exactly? And why learn Wing Chun to do that when there are so many other arts out there these days that ONLY do the competitive thing?[/QUOTE]You could just drop the ‘martial’ from ‘martial dance’. It wouldn’t change the nature of the dance.
Ultimately, one should test one’s skills in competition. That is what the rooftop fights in HK were.
[QUOTE=CFT;1093414]Ultimately, one should test one’s skills in competition. That is what the rooftop fights in HK were.[/QUOTE]
A bit of a laughable comment considering the nature (and basic standard) of the people who fought. That was all ‘playfighting’. Gangster banter and bragging. Nothing to do with learning Martial Arts imo and something I wouldn’t expose a student to, like ever!
[QUOTE=M1k3;1093414]And, if you don’t understand the need to compete with your martial art you probably never will.[/QUOTE]
Did I say I didn’t understand? No. I’m simply asking why you want to fight? And FWIW there is no ‘need’ for fighting competitions in Wing Chun at all. Fighting in cages and rings and leitais or whatever is already out there, and flourishing. What I’m interested in is understanding why you want to be a ‘part of a trend’ that I find a little barbaric?
[QUOTE=CFT;1093414]What do you think Wing Chun is all about then?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093414]So, why was WC developed?[/QUOTE]
Listen, my opinions are shat-on daily in this forum. You guys seem intelligent enough to come up with something far better than ‘fighting’, surely?
Does anyone care about Martial Culture? Language? PEACEFUL training??
WC, like every other Martial art, was developed to fight with.
The creator, developer, 1st generation master(s) and practioners ALL used it to fight with.
That is why in WC, we learn how to, wait for it…FIGHT !!!
Freaky eh?
Can WC be useful for others things? sure.
Cars were developed to drive people from A to B, but they can be used for other crap too.
Of course you are NOT using it for what it was intended to, but hey, it’s a free world, supposedly.
i think most people start martial arts with the intention of learning to fight, and then at some point doing so, and with good reason. most go through several personal evolutions in regards to goals, and outlook of what they are doing, throughout their martial art life.
for many martial artists, fighting will always be an important element. or we probably would not have started in the first place and would be playing softball, doing gymnastics, or dance, or some other physical activity.
no longer is fighting my focus, but since thats why i started it will always be an important factor in my studies. when seeking someone to learn from, they must know how to apply their martial art to combat, or for me it is pointless to spend even 1 minute with them.
but in the beginning, for many, the aspect that martial arts offers one the ability to learn to fight, is the primary draw for most who actually contemplate martial arts in the first place.
in todays world though…beginners often start just to get in shape. its a much wider scope…most of those people just do yoga though or old people tai chi…or they quit in the first 6 months of learning a real martial art.
It’s not about the system. It’s not about the approach.
For me, I want to fight because I want to know that I can handle myself to the best of my ability if the ish ever hits the fan. I also have a family and my own business that puts food on the table - so getting into street fights are not so great in my case. The ring/competition/etc is the best venue for my lifestyle.
Fighting is scary as hell. For me, I’ve noticed a ton of emotion attached to it. When I get into the ring, my fear dies a little more each time.
And it’s not just a fear of getting hit. Ego is involved, too. After years of 31337 martial arts, I still suck donkey b@lls at times. There is a fear of being bad at something I love so much.
So…really…there’s a lot to it. But those are some darn good reasons why I fight.
Would I teach my children the same? Yes. They will learn about why I fight as I raise them and learn about the benefits that I’ve gained from it. They can make their own choices as they get older.
Okay. All fair points raised so far, but let me ask this; do you think that Wing Chun was created from empty hand fighting or weaponry combat?
I ask because I was taught that Wing Chun came from our weaponry, and so the empty hand forms, interactions and training evolved from there. Two knives and a pole. Competitive fighting has it’s place, I’m not here to argue that point, I’m just interested to learn why so many hold empty hand fighting with such high regard when we are a weaponry based system?
Fear. Anxiety. Adrenaline. Stage fright! All these elements are alive and well in any serious Martial Art weaponry training, whether that be through fighting in a controlled environment with your weapon or training under constant pressure to defend yourself and survive! And all the time you’re further developing your strength, speed and stamina which naturally enhances your empty hand methods.
So, why do we still want to fight eachother and feel that bone to bone contact?
Okay. All fair points raised so far, but let me ask this; do you think that Wing Chun was created from empty hand fighting or weaponry combat?
An interesting question.
I have some experience in the FMA and as you know, they advocate armed first and then unarmed base don that armed training.
There is also a reason you will never see a FMA be very effective in empty hand training as compared to systems that train, primerily empty hands and that is because armed doesn’t translate that will to unarmed.
Its a fine theory but one that has been shown to be quite incorrect, in fact, going from empty hand to armed makes more sense than the reverse ( typically).
But a couple of push daggers in the hands of a well trained boxer and you will see what I mean.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093484]Its a fine theory but one that has been shown to be quite incorrect, in fact, going from empty hand to armed makes more sense than the reverse ( typically).[/QUOTE]
It’s one thing, like the Filipino arts, to encourage the weapon before the hand but it’s another to suggest they do not cross over well imo.
Wing Chun centre and straight line concepts come from the pole, as an example, and side body punching structures are drilled with the pole, so how do you even know that you’re doing it correctly if you have never trained such pole methods?
In fact, the reason our weaponry is in the system is to back up all our hand work not the other way round, although I understand that this has become the way for us all to learn these days. Which is good too. Safer!
Man, I didn’t know what a reverse punch was in Karate until I saw Kanazawa with a Jo staff
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093486]It’s one thing, like the Filipino arts, to encourage the weapon before the hand but it’s another to suggest they do not cross over well imo.
Wing Chun centre and straight line concepts come from the pole, as an example, and side body punching structures are drilled with the pole, so how do you even know that you’re doing it correctly if you have never trained such pole methods?
In fact, the reason our weaponry is in the system is to back up all our hand work not the other way round, although I understand that this has become the way for us all to learn these days. Which is good too. Safer!
Man, I didn’t know what a reverse punch was in Karate until I saw Kanazawa with a Jo staff :D[/QUOTE]
The biomechanics used in delivering a thrust with the pole are far different than that with a fist.
Sorry.
And the Jo staff lends itself better to the oi or kizami tzuki then it does to the gyaku-tzuki, this according to the very same Kanazawa and HIS Sensei.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093492]The biomechanics used in delivering a thrust with the pole are far different than that with a fist.
Sorry.
((FWIW, IMO yes and no))joy
And the Jo staff lends itself better to the oi or kizami tzuki then it does to the gyaku-tzuki, this according to the very same Kanazawa and HIS Sensei.
Just saying…[/QUOTE]
((Kanazawa was/is good. He also started doing taichi to become softer, if I recall correctly))
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093366]I know this may be a boring subject to most who post here, but I thought I would ask why so many of you feel like fighting is the goal of your Wing Chun training?
Whether it’s street fighting or competitive fighting, why do you want to take Wing Chun into that domain in the first place? Who told you that fighting others (and your own family!) is what training Wing Chun is about? How much do you get charged to learn how to beat your brothers and sisters?
And I have to end by asking if you would teach your own children the same?[/QUOTE]
So what is the goal of your wing chun? Seriously why are you training a martial art what do you hope to get out of it?
Because if its fitness, strength, longevity, flexibility meditation etc there are better ways to go about it that martial arts, ways specifically designed with that express purpose in mind
PS anyone else notice the distinct lack of response by the wing chun peeps on this board
[QUOTE=Frost;1093510]
PS anyone else notice the distinct lack of response by the wing chun peeps on this board[/QUOTE]
Maybe because the discussion is a waste of time?
Of course is fighting the primary goal of a martial art. Benefits like physical fitness, stress relieve, etc. are simply byproducts and can also be achieved by a wide range of other activities. The motivation for training a martial art varies from one person to another, but the goal is typically to learn to defend themselves, to learn how to fight.
Walking around in a pajama, smoking incense, talking New Age non-sense, and not being able to fight is not Ving Tsun! Ving Tsun is a great Chinese boxing method, and it’s a shame when it’s watered down losing its focus.
