[QUOTE=Frost;1093510]
PS anyone else notice the distinct lack of response by the wing chun peeps on this board[/QUOTE]
I AM WING CHUN! :mad:
PS anyone else notice the distinct lack of response by the wing chun peeps on this board[/QUOTE]
Didnt know it was mandatory to respond.
Incidentally, notice the non wing chun peeps beating their chests on this board>
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093366]I know this may be a boring subject to most who post here, but I thought I would ask why so many of you feel like fighting is the goal of your Wing Chun training?
Whether it’s street fighting or competitive fighting, why do you want to take Wing Chun into that domain in the first place? Who told you that fighting others (and your own family!) is what training Wing Chun is about? How much do you get charged to learn how to beat your brothers and sisters?
And I have to end by asking if you would teach your own children the same?[/QUOTE]
Wing chun-Martial Art-Fighting… pretty obvious to me
Learning how to fight/martial art isnt about “how to beat your brothers and sisters”, its about applying the skill set learnt in training, be it street or sport fighting.
And your comment regarding children shows that you feel there is a moral implication in “fighting”. There isnt unless you assault someone.
Sorry, but in my book, if you are not focusing on the fighting its sporting masturbation
Try Yoga instead (its very good!)
GlennR
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093366]I know this may be a boring subject to most who post here, but I thought I would ask why so many of you feel like fighting is the goal of your Wing Chun training?
[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily the goal, but a vital part of the learning process.
Whether it’s street fighting or competitive fighting, why do you want to take Wing Chun into that domain in the first place?
Because that is the baseline of quality control. It is universally measurable. It ensures you are not training in an art of folklore by people with questionable skillsets while being falsely sold on gaining skill in “self defense”, which is dangerous.
Who told you that fighting others (and your own family!) is what training Wing Chun is about?
Nobody. It’s an inherent part of learning a “martial” art. As a performance or recital is an inherent part of learning to dance - the quality of the show or performance proves out the learning program.
How much do you get charged to learn how to beat your brothers and sisters?
Varies with the school. Why are you worried about it?
And I have to end by asking if you would teach your own children the same?
Absolutely. It provides conditioning, self confidence, control over body and mind and reliable self defense.
With all that said, why is it exactly that you feel that fighting is NOT a vital part of your Wing Chun training?
How is it that you are able to determine whether or not what you are learning is viable in a threatening self defense situation?
How do you measure skill? Who can slap box with the fastest hands? Who pushes someone back from a line better? Who “looks” better? Who can “turn a steering wheel” better in chi sau?
If you have no measurable quality mark, how do you know that the art you are being taught is an “effective” martial art, as opposed to multi generations of folklore with a foreign Asian slant for appeal?
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Our basic function is to survive; in some parts of the world, fighting is survival. Not so much in developed countries though.
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Once our basic survival needs are met (such as food, shelter etc) we have time to do things for self development; be it religion, art, sport etc.
If you ask why do WC; then I ask why not?
Of course, if one builds a car, even purely for “collector” purpose, one would still want to take it out for a drive. It’s not about fighting brothers or sisters, it’s about expressing what one had worked very hard for. If anyone thinks that this is pointless, then we might as well give away all the non-essential items in our house and live like a hermit.
In the Western World, we have free choice. I choose Wing Chun.
Cheers,
John
Life is fighting, survival is fighting - why wouldn’t one want to learn how to fight?
Honestly, the culture, self development and all that other stuff came about from the culture of fighting. Same as in the southern USA - they were once known for their politeness because of the frequency of duels. Out of necessity of not stepping on toes to cause conflict their culture changed. CMA isn’t that much different in that respect.
Honestly LoneTiger, your position on this thread has made me lose some respect for you. I fight to hone my skills and detect weaknesses which I cannot find on my own, if you are not doing the same then I would question your qualifications as a martial artist.
Wing Chun was developed to fight the Manchu. It is a MARTIAL (war) art. I still don’t believe that question was asked 
Question is ok, maybe just not precise as it suppose to be. I think the real question is -why people in Wing Chun have a need to compete ?Real fight , life and death situation fight is something completely different from any kind of competition , no mater how competition its selfe is brutal as long as it have the rules and life is not in danger that is not real fight .I was in the war , first line of fire , i was stabded with a knife in a bar fight so i can tell the difference . Nothing can prepapare people for real fight , except the real fight , and there is only one way to test how good is your art in reality but i would not recommend anyone to try that because there is extremly high probabilty that he will not survive testing .
Wing Chun centre and straight line concepts come from the pole
According to whom? Based on what?
The canonical history has it that the pole was not introduced until WC had been going for a generation, so this argument is pretty dubious IMO.
The ability to defend oneself brings confidence. I do WC for defence, not because I like fist fighting, let alone fighting with weapons. I do enjoy wrestling and competitive BJJ rolling.
Some people like fighting. You may think that that makes them less evolved than you or something, but you might be wrong.
Most people end up finding other goals or benefits in the training besides the combative aspects, but just about anyone who takes it up likes the idea of being able to fight or at least defend themselves effectively. If they claim otherwise, they are fooling themselves but not anyone else.
How much do you get charged to learn how to beat your brothers and sisters?
I think that’s commonly called a “loaded question”.
How much do YOU charge students to teach them how to lose?
FWIW, I have two brothers who don’t do WC, and no sisters. One’s better at chess than me, but I kick his a$$ in first person shooter games.
And I stopped paying fees once I started teaching at my instructor’s school.
And why learn Wing Chun to do that when there are so many other arts out there these days
I chose an instructor rather than an art for WC. IMO if you only practise one MA you’re missing out, but I guess some are happy as underachievers 
If you want to push an agenda or criticise other’s motivations, Spencer, just do it, rather than disguise it poorly as a questionnaire.
PS anyone else notice the distinct lack of response by the wing chun peeps on this board
I don’t think Spencer wants responses, he wants “fighters” to argue with.
Thanks for all the responses…
It’s kinda cool to see everyone digging into this thread. And no, I don’t want fighters to argue with I’m truly interested in peoples mindsets and reasoning behind training for the fight, when that said fight may never arrive (unless you’re into the competition vibe)
For the people who are ranting on about Wing Chun being a MARTIAL art, then read what I wrote about weaponry, as I believe that should be the focus of our trainig, especially at an advanced stage. My ‘example’ of Kanazawa Jo method highlights this, and please to throw Japanese terms at me is a joke. I was 11 or something when I met and trained with him, so leave my crap memory alone!!
So, I accept people criticisms of my approach to this debate, but I ask that you look at my questions and at least try to answer them before attacking me for an opinion. An opinion I might add, that is shared by many who don’t post here.
And for you career guys out there, I don’t charge anything to anyone because I do not teach/coach for a living and when I mention fighting ‘brothers’ I mean your kung fu brothers, not your blood relatives (doh!)
Maybe my question should have been different. But who here will be honest with me and say eacatly what feeling they get from fighting, or let’s say sparring (which is totally different imho!) Again, I aint against it I’m trying to figure out why it’s so highly regarded when Wing Chun as a system should be looking at its weaponry more. That’s all. 
[QUOTE=Eric_H;1093536]Honestly LoneTiger, your position on this thread has made me lose some respect for you. I fight to hone my skills and detect weaknesses which I cannot find on my own, if you are not doing the same then I would question your qualifications as a martial artist.[/QUOTE]
That’s okay. I’m not here to gain anyones ‘respect’ or be idolized or make money from the easily led! 
Respect comes from being in the same room as a Martial Artist, not from random posts on a forum
I’m happy for you if fighting is how you assess your skills, I like to use other methods too and as for ‘qualifications’, pleeeeaaaazzzeee. :eek:
[QUOTE=anerlich;1093597]The canonical history has it that the pole was not introduced until WC had been going for a generation, so this argument is pretty dubious IMO.[/QUOTE]
And so is any unproven ‘his-story’. If you haven’t trained it, don’t comment because you make yourself look and sound a little ignorant. Lee Shing was known for his weaponry expertise, and his own stories of our poles history make much more sense than anything else I have personally researched. Why is it with Wing Chun?? Answer me this and we can talk…
[QUOTE=anerlich;1093597]Some people like fighting. You may think that that makes them less evolved than you or something, but you might be wrong.[/QUOTE]
Not at all! In fact I think it takes a certain type of person to train to fight for competition. But I do not like the way that competition has become more ‘gladiator’ type barbarism in a cage. From over 500 students I have seen and trained with I have met possibly 4 that could be trained fighters. Everyone else simply wasn’t interested, or couldn’t take the training.
Most people end up finding other goals or benefits in the training besides the combative aspects, but just about anyone who takes it up likes the idea of being able to fight or at least defend themselves effectively. If they claim otherwise, they are fooling themselves but not anyone else.
[QUOTE=anerlich;1093597]If you want to push an agenda or criticise other’s motivations, Spencer, just do it, rather than disguise it poorly as a questionnaire.[/QUOTE]
Of course, that is what I’m doing! Totally missed that one
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1093591]Wing Chun was developed to fight the Manchu. It is a MARTIAL (war) art. I still don’t believe that question was asked [/QUOTE]
And so why fight with your empty hands on the battlefield?? You of all people I thiought may have more to contribute here, especially considering the ‘arm hacking’ thread!!!
Where are your knoves, why do you practise the pole?? Are you telling me that after all your years the end objective of our treasured art is to fight with empty hands???!!!
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1093522]Because that is the baseline of quality control. It is universally measurable. It ensures you are not training in an art of folklore by people with questionable skillsets while being falsely sold on gaining skill in “self defense”, which is dangerous.[/QUOTE]
Sorry but you are mistaken imho. Wing Chun competitions are not universal. Fighting UFC style in a cage is universal. I’ve always thought the best place for Wing Chun fighting is in the officiallly sanctioned Sanda (Sanshou) arena, but that’s just me.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1093522]With all that said, why is it exactly that you feel that fighting is NOT a vital part of your Wing Chun training?[/QUOTE]
Beacuse I’ve had the fight trained out of me by now! I no longer have the hunger to taste blood my friend, that died a while ago when people got seriously hurt. :o
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1093522]How is it that you are able to determine whether or not what you are learning is viable in a threatening self defense situation?[/QUOTE]
Have you trained stamina of your Wing Chun sansau? Constantly applied under pressured attacks from numerous individuals? Let’s say 108 times in one go? If not, why not? I think that assesses your skill in application more so than one on one but that’s just my opinion.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1093522]How do you measure skill? Who can slap box with the fastest hands? Who pushes someone back from a line better? Who “looks” better? Who can “turn a steering wheel” better in chi sau?[/QUIOTE]
That deserves no response whatsoever. Good luck at your own wheel turning masquerades.
[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1093513]Of course is fighting the primary goal of a martial art. Benefits like physical fitness, stress relieve, etc. are simply byproducts and can also be achieved by a wide range of other activities. The motivation for training a martial art varies from one person to another, but the goal is typically to learn to defend themselves, to learn how to fight.[/QUOTE]
Agreed to a point, but I’m asking why YOU want to fight?? When there are other skillsets to train that develop this ability.
And FWIW I think self defense and fighting ARE polar opposites. There is nothing in my self defence manual that justifies maiming or seriously injuring my attacker. A simple running technique normally works!!
[QUOTE=Frost;1093510]So what is the goal of your wing chun? Seriously why are you training a martial art what do you hope to get out of it?[/QUOTE]
Okay. Last post of the day on this subject.
Initially, I wanted to be Bruce Lee! :o The I started Karate because of long term bullying, which my bruvva used to deal with. I was 9.
By the time I found my Wing Chun Sifu I was 18 and looking for that ‘next level’ in my development. Namely weaponry and cultural exchange. I still feel blessed to have learnt from Sifu Joseph Man, who I still see today. I’m now 36.
I don’t hope to get anything out of my Martial Arts ‘financially’ unless the opportunity presents itself through demonstrations or seminars. Of course, the people that are interested tend to be from my direct kung fu family, as they too have wuestions about my teachers methods. I simply want to present what I know from my own home online, which is my Flystudio project, because I feel that not enough information is available about my Sigung Lee Shing and I rarely see certain training presented, like knife against pole as an example. And some of what I do see is a mishmash of bad habits and lack of understanding imho.
When I first learnt Wing Chun there was talk of rules, of culture, of respect, honour, loyalty and righteousness. All these virtues are within other Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and should be present in Wing Chun too. And I do not see it these days, especially when we are being targetted by wrestlers and kickboxers who are telling us how we should be fighting!
If we are to learn to fight, fight like a Wing Chun practitioner and prove that it works because I haven’t even seen that yet and we all think we’re great fighters!! Don’t make me laugh… I’ve met better trained bricklayers
So if what you’re training is NOT improving your fighting prowess and you really want to fight, have you not thought for a second about what other methods WITHIN Wing Chun will help?? Mind you, you will have to source a Sifu that will teach you for that purpose and like I’ve said, there are very few who will.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093484]
There is also a reason you will never see a FMA be very effective in empty hand training as compared to systems that train, primerily empty hands and that is because armed doesn’t translate that will to unarmed.
Its a fine theory but one that has been shown to be quite incorrect, in fact, going from empty hand to armed makes more sense than the reverse ( typically).
.[/QUOTE]
That’s one of the most laughable comments I have ever heard on here. Maybe I am misreading this but if you know FMA who arent good fighters unarmed then you dont know that many. My experience with FMA people is that they tend to be very effective without weapons.
yip man wanted people to go and fight with Vt, it is well known that his better fighters got more attention
It is well documented that the ultimate goal of most chinese martial arts was not fighting prowess ‘per se’.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093618]
So if what you’re training is NOT improving your fighting prowess and you really want to fight, have you not thought for a second about what other methods WITHIN Wing Chun will help?? Mind you, you will have to source a Sifu that will teach you for that purpose and like I’ve said, there are very few who will.[/QUOTE]
Ah! You’ve discovered something.
Wing Chun training {often does not equal} ability to fight.
So where’s the missing link? Not some Sifu. It’s the training approach itself.
And then my free willed mind, after 17 years in the martial arts, doesn’t believe that somebody else’s “real” or “complete” Wing Chun has the answers. That’s insanity: doing the same thing over and over trying to get the result I want.
It’s in the actual training itself where things break down. And the only responsible for the outcome and the path to get there is me.