Reading this forum has highlighted an area of disconnect for me. The standard argument for why Wing Chun isn’t seen in the competition arena such as mma or k1appears to revolve around the fact that many wing chun techniques would be outlawed in such competitions, the target areas would be illegal etc. However the vast majority of training clips posted on this forum show nothing except punches to the face being trained, whether on bags, in Chi sao, bong lap drill or any other element of training outside of forms. Some posters have repeatedly referred to the punch as wing chun’s primary weapon and some have suggested that other techniques are simply existing to train the punch. This being the case it would seem to be at odds with the rationale for non competition.
Anyone else got any thoughts on this apparent disconnect?
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1211351]Reading this forum has highlighted an area of disconnect for me. The standard argument for why Wing Chun isn’t seen in the competition arena such as mma or k1appears to revolve around the fact that many wing chun techniques would be outlawed in such competitions, the target areas would be illegal etc. However the vast majority of training clips posted on this forum show nothing except punches to the face being trained, whether on bags, in Chi sao, bong lap drill or any other element of training outside of forms. Some posters have repeatedly referred to the punch as wing chun’s primary weapon and some have suggested that other techniques are simply existing to train the punch. This being the case it would seem to be at odds with the rationale for non competition.
Anyone else got any thoughts on this apparent disconnect?[/QUOTE]
Very good points Ian.
The problem with a lot of WC people is hat they think it is all things to all people.
It’s a self defense system. That’s it.
It’s meant to get you out of trouble in the handful of seconds you might have in a self defense situation.
It relies primarily on one weapon, the punch, as it’s simple to use, effective and easy to implement (ie it doesn’t require any special physical training)
What it’s not, as I think you know, is a combat sport. It just doesn’t cut it in the ring, finger strikes, biting allowed.
There’s better methods
But if you want to learn a self defense and don’t have delusions of being a killing machine then WC is a good choice
One should train specifically to suite the purpose. If you like to drive fast, you buy a sports car. If you like to go off road, you buy a 4WD. You don’t buy a sports car to go bush.
The requirement of being a soldier, for example, is very different from police, or bouncer, or psychiatric nurse, or UFC, or performers/actors, or civilian self-defense. You can’t really say what is better, only what is suitable for the job.
WC, IMHO, basically focus on the “Hit and Run” strategy, to get you out of trouble ASAP. It’s generally not designed for sport/competition (although some groups are getting good results).
ok I agree Wing Chun is mostly trained for use in street encounters, but if its primary weapon is the punch and in virtually every video clip available said punches are being aimed at the head (or worse the chest) then there is no valid argument for why it doesn’t translate to the combat sports arena unless of course its just a steaming pile of excrement which I don’t personally believe it is.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1211411]ok I agree Wing Chun is mostly trained for use in street encounters, but if its primary weapon is the punch and in virtually every video clip available said punches are being aimed at the head (or worse the chest) then there is no valid argument for why it doesn’t translate to the combat sports arena unless of course its just a steaming pile of excrement which I don’t personally believe it is.[/QUOTE]
What a strange thing to say… about aiming punches at the chest?
I am really sorry to see that some guys over emphasize the use of the fist as their primal striking tool, considering there is a specific reason why this is the staple of our system. Rather like why we would aim at the chest, the reasoning behind it is what is important.
As for competitions, I still can’t understand why we need to fight to compete because there are other skill-based things we can compete with if winning trophies rocks your boat? Especially if there is no common ground or competition rules that everyone can agree on for Fighting?! May as well enter a decent, sanctioned, Sansau/Sanshou comp IMHO.
What about a Wooden Man comp, or a Weaponry Form comp?? Or even a Team Comp, Lord forbid lol! 
I think that is a valid point Ian,
Wing chun guys should be as good as most other TMA in the competition arena. I guess what fails a wing chun guy is the well-roundedness. We dont have much long range or grappling so once we are in these ranges its difficult unless you cross train. Then people complain its not wing chun.
Paul
www.moifa.co.uk
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1211411]ok I agree Wing Chun is mostly trained for use in street encounters, but if its primary weapon is the punch and in virtually every video clip available said punches are being aimed at the head (or worse the chest) then there is no valid argument for why it doesn’t translate to the combat sports arena unless of course its just a steaming pile of excrement which I don’t personally believe it is.[/QUOTE]
I’m not a WC guy, so feel free to ignore me, but I’ll give you an outsiders opinion. I know this is generalizing and doesn’t apply to everyone, but I think a hindrance to using WC in the ring is that most/many WC folks only spar other WC folks.
If you want to go into K1, your going to have to spar against kickboxers and adapt your art accordingly. If you want to fight MMA you’ll have to adapt to it and learn ground game.
It seems like there’s a resistance to adapting an art to fight in a specific element. As if it is a sign of deficiency in the art itself. I think that’s a wrong way to think. We understand street fighting is different than kickboxing, is different than MMA, ect. If you want to fight in sanda you’ll have to adapt, not only to the rule set, but to using your art against the type of fighters your likely to find in the sanda ring.
I feel like the ability to adapt an art to different environments shows strength in the fighter, not weakness in the art. You got to be realistic and understand you will need to make changes and adjustments, but I think that can be done without forgoing the core integrity of a style.
If you want to fight Muay Thai rules and only spar Olympic TKD guys, this makes no sense. You need to spar with MT guys and you’ll have to adapt yourself to defend against the techs you will come against in their element.
You will also have to adapt some of your training methods accordingly.
Many people use MA successfully on the street and the ring:
Muay Thai, MMA, BJJ, Karate, KB, etc
If WC can’t work in BOTH environments then it is quite logically inferior to those MA.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1211418]I’m not a WC guy…
…If you want to fight Muay Thai rules and only spar Olympic TKD guys, this makes no sense. You need to spar with MT guys and you’ll have to adapt yourself to defend against the techs you will come against in their element.
You will also have to adapt some of your training methods accordingly.[/QUOTE]
Ok your post makes some good points, but how about this?
What about our Wing Chun competition rules? If you’re a TKD guys and want to fight a Wing Chun guy, why do you expect to be able to kick to the head? Surely you will have to adapt to our rules no?? And herein is the root of the issue… there is no competition for Wing Chun guys that has a decent set of rules that can be unified across the globe like there is in TKD/MMA/Boxing etc
So it’s always us having to change what we do to compete with others, whereas if we can do this (Alan Orr is a good example) why can’t others do the same??
Far too much inequality in this world of MA comps!
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1211428]Many people use MA successfully on the street and the ring:
Muay Thai, MMA, BJJ, Karate, KB, etc
If WC can’t work in BOTH environments then it is quite logically inferior to those MA.[/QUOTE]
SR, different focus. Different purpose. If you want to train to fight 3x3min rounds, it will be different to 12x3min rounds.
But you do have a point. They all work on the street too. I would like to argue against the “inferior” reference, because I have faith in WC; but I couldn’t. May be someone else could.
In the end, I guess, one must be free to be effective; so the style thing blurrs.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1211441]SR, different focus. Different purpose. If you want to train to fight 3x3min rounds, it will be different to 12x3min rounds.
But you do have a point. They all work on the street too. I would like to argue against the “inferior” reference, because I have faith in WC; but I couldn’t. May be someone else could.
In the end, I guess, one must be free to be effective; so the style thing blurrs.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I am just pointing out that it is illogical to view WC as an effective combat method, even more effective than those mentioned, when the fact is that those methods have been proven IN AND OUT of the ring on a regular basis and WC hasn’t.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1211448]Oh, I am just pointing out that it is illogical to view WC as an effective combat method, even more effective than those mentioned, when the fact is that those methods have been proven IN AND OUT of the ring on a regular basis and WC hasn’t.[/QUOTE]
I guess what is suitable for the person as well; to choose an art that suits the person’s build, mentality, habits etc. Some people are natural kickers, some grapplers, some hitter. Choose the art that maximizes the person’s potential.
I’m drifting off topic.
Is it that Wing Chun has consistently failed in competition or just that there is a lack of it? There is no reason it can’t be used in competition without change, as I see it, but it seems the goal of those training WC is not often to compete with it. That’s certainly not its main attraction.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1211448]Oh, I am just pointing out that it is illogical to view WC as an effective combat method, even more effective than those mentioned, when the fact is that those methods have been proven IN AND OUT of the ring on a regular basis and WC hasn’t.[/QUOTE]
Just think there’s a major problem with how its trained overall. I mean Alan Orr’s guys don’t seem to have a problem working it inside and outside the ring. And EVERY SINGLE TIME I see comments directed toward him, it’s how they are using MT or “MMA” and not WCK. And every time he refutes it.
Maybe the story of the little nun with the mystical skills to defeat larger stronger opponents without training is way too ingrained into most practitioners.
I would love to see more fighters with a WC background. I know there are a lot of techniques that wouldn’t be approved or legal in most matches, but just like the world, anything can evolve.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1211431]Ok your post makes some good points, but how about this?
What about our Wing Chun competition rules? If you’re a TKD guys and want to fight a Wing Chun guy, why do you expect to be able to kick to the head? Surely you will have to adapt to our rules no?? And herein is the root of the issue… there is no competition for Wing Chun guys that has a decent set of rules that can be unified across the globe like there is in TKD/MMA/Boxing etc
So it’s always us having to change what we do to compete with others, whereas if we can do this (Alan Orr is a good example) why can’t others do the same??
Far too much inequality in this world of MA comps![/QUOTE]
Your right, a TKD guy probably would not fare well adjusting to the different rules, without modifying and adapting his art. It would also behoove him to spar WC guys. The converse of my post is also true.
The OP was asking why we don’t see much WC in kickboxing and such. I gave, what I suspect, are the reasons. Of course, in MMA you are free to use nearly all your WC techniques. I don’t know much about Alan Orr or Obasi, but from what I’ve read they seem to be having some success. I’m sure they are adapting their arts to fight wrestlers, submission grapplers and kickboxers as well.
That’s an element you probably won’t find in your average WC school. If you want to fight in the sport fighting world, your going to have to spar with them and crosstrain to know their techniques. If you only want to compete against WC guys, then your fine just sparring/training with them.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1211502]
Maybe the story of the little nun with the mystical skills to defeat larger stronger opponents without training is way too ingrained into most practitioners.[/QUOTE]
I think your right about this. Too many traditionalist take stories like that somewhat literally. It’s not magic. “Masters” are only human. You can’t learn to fight without fighting.
As I said, I’m not a WC guy; and I don’t know much at all about Alan Orr, but if he claims his core is WC, I believe him; and if he’s having success with his fighters; I’m sure it’s because he’s realistically training them for fighting.
Instead of telling him it’s not WC; I would be more interested in how he’s training his art differently than a school that cannot produce a successful fighter.
What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand…etc.
What really counts is can you hit a target and cause an effect without luck.
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1211509]What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand…etc.
What really counts is can you hit a target and cause an effect without luck.[/QUOTE]
Your right, that’s why it would require some adaptation to use WC in the ring. Although I believe most traditional arts can be adapted to sport fighting, without compromising the core of the system; so long as you train for fighting.
Something that interests me is the evolution, (or de-evolution) of Muay Boran into modern Muay Thai. MTB used a LOT of the traditional methods common to TMA in general and had a much broader range of technique than modern MT.
Now you can’t say it changed because they started fighting. MTB always had a history of sport fighting; and the old “rules” were much more lenient than the modern rules. The adaptation of the modern rule set, rounds, ring and boxing gloves forced the old MT fighters, to adapt and evolve into the modern MT fighters. I suspect that the boxing gloves may have been one of the most important factors in this transition.
Sorry for the weird tangent, that’s just how my head works.
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1211509]What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand…etc.
What really counts is can you hit a target and cause an effect without luck.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you’re right, round kicks, left hooks, right cross, elbows, knees, RNC, that crap can never work in the street.
:rolleyes: