[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1211518]Your right, that’s why it would require some adaptation to use WC in the ring. Although I believe most traditional arts can be adapted to sport fighting, without compromising the core of the system; so long as you train for fighting.
Something that interests me is the evolution, (or de-evolution) of Muay Boran into modern Muay Thai. MTB used a LOT of the traditional methods common to TMA in general and had a much broader range of technique than modern MT.
Now you can’t say it changed because they started fighting. MTB always had a history of sport fighting; and the old “rules” were much more lenient than the modern rules. The adaptation of the modern rule set, rounds, ring and boxing gloves forced the old MT fighters, to adapt and evolve into the modern MT fighters. I suspect that the boxing gloves may have been one of the most important factors in this transition.
Sorry for the weird tangent, that’s just how my head works.[/QUOTE]
Instead of looking at what is different from MB and MT, look at what is the same.
MT is not an evolution or devolution of MB, it is the modern sport version of it, a different art.
Think JJJ and Judo.
The thing is, because the sport versions allowed people to fight and train more, they became more effective.
This is old news.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1211521]Yeah, you’re right, round kicks, left hooks, right cross, elbows, knees, RNC, that crap can never work in the street.
:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Anything will work if you can hit your target, what’s your point ?
What is the risk - reward and probability of success ?,
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1211523]Instead of looking at what is different from MB and MT, look at what is the same.
MT is not an evolution or devolution of MB, it is the modern sport version of it, a different art.
Think JJJ and Judo.
The thing is, because the sport versions allowed people to fight and train more, they became more effective.
This is old news.[/QUOTE]
Well it’s interesting in that MTB was a sport combat art as well. It just had more of the traditional trimmings and culture in place. It’s not really the same as comparing Karate and kickboxing, because MTB was always used for sport fighting.
What would be interesting would be to go back and see how similar, or different, a Muay Boran fight would have looked from a modern MT fight. Sadly I don’t think that will ever happen.
But I get your main point, core techniques of fighting are proven and simple, the original core of MTB is probably all still intact in MT.
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1211525]Anything will work if you can hit your target, what’s your point ?
What is the risk - reward and probability of success ?,[/QUOTE]
My point was what you said:
What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand…etc.
Is irrelevant and incorrect since we see clips of "haymakers’ working in “real fights” al the time.
What works in any given “ring” is what has been PROVEN to work over and over.
That goes for the “street” as well.
Funny thing is that everything that works in the ring ( typically) works in the street as well.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1211526]Well it’s interesting in that MTB was a sport combat art as well. It just had more of the traditional trimmings and culture in place. It’s not really the same as comparing Karate and kickboxing, because MTB was always used for sport fighting.
What would be interesting would be to go back and see how similar, or different, a Muay Boran fight would have looked from a modern MT fight. Sadly I don’t think that will ever happen.
But I get your main point, core techniques of fighting are proven and simple, the original core of MTB is probably all still intact in MT.[/QUOTE]
The main difference from what I have seen, is that MG has more grappling and weapons work.
Strike wise, they have more open hands but truth be told, ask any MT coach about the old MB techniques and I have yet to see one that DOESN’T know about them.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1211528]The main difference from what I have seen, is that MG has more grappling and weapons work.
Strike wise, they have more open hands but truth be told, ask any MT coach about the old MB techniques and I have yet to see one that DOESN’T know about them.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, we may kind of read too much into it. I trained with a former fighter in rural Thailand, he did what some call “traditional” MT…the sport version, but the older style, where they don’t really use the hooks and uppercuts, a bit different foot work ect…most they guys I seen in the country trained like this…
Anyway, I asked him about Muay Boran. He just said it’s the same thing. If you want to use Muay Boran techniques when you fight, just practice them.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1211373]One should train specifically to suite the purpose. If you like to drive fast, you buy a sports car. If you like to go off road, you buy a 4WD. You don’t buy a sports car to go bush.
The requirement of being a soldier, for example, is very different from police, or bouncer, or psychiatric nurse, or UFC, or performers/actors, or civilian self-defense. You can’t really say what is better, only what is suitable for the job.
WC, IMHO, basically focus on the “Hit and Run” strategy, to get you out of trouble ASAP. It’s generally not designed for sport/competition (although some groups are getting good results).[/QUOTE]
Excellent point about training for the purpose.
The disconnect comes in actually using it.
If you are training for the streets, and you are not regularly fighting in the streets, you probably aren’t going to fare very well there.
Training to fight in the streets and not fighting there is pretty much the same as training for competition and then never competing. The first time you compete, you probably won’t perform very well.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1211431]Ok your post makes some good points, but how about this?
What about our Wing Chun competition rules? If you’re a TKD guys and want to fight a Wing Chun guy, why do you expect to be able to kick to the head? Surely you will have to adapt to our rules no?? And herein is the root of the issue… there is no competition for Wing Chun guys that has a decent set of rules that can be unified across the globe like there is in TKD/MMA/Boxing etc
So it’s always us having to change what we do to compete with others, whereas if we can do this (Alan Orr is a good example) why can’t others do the same??
Far too much inequality in this world of MA comps![/QUOTE]
There is a venue that makes all martial arts systems adapt to its rules. It’s called MMA.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1211411]ok I agree Wing Chun is mostly trained for use in street encounters, but if its primary weapon is the punch and in virtually every video clip available said punches are being aimed at the head (or worse the chest) then there is no valid argument for why it doesn’t translate to the combat sports arena unless of course its just a steaming pile of excrement which I don’t personally believe it is.[/QUOTE]
For me Wing Chun greatly enhanced my ability to protect myself in real world environments. So I would say it is a very effective system for me.
Now if I was one to want to compete in a sporting event, I would say Wing Chun alone would not be my choice.
In the encounters I had on the street, things happened pretty quickly and were over very quickly. The guys I encountered were tough guys but not the kind of tough guys you find in the sporting world.
In the sporting world these guys train to have endurance for days. They get pounded on daily. I am not only talking MMA but boxers as well. So they are expecting hard knocks and are not surprised when you counter and land a strike or kick or any other physical contact.
Also in the sporting world there is no fear of getting shanked, shot, or security rushing in to stop the ruckus. Master Andres Hoffman has guys using Weng Chun and BJJ with great success. Alan has his guys doing their thing with great success. What you don’t see is either standing flat footed waiting to use the “Mythical Nun Skills” as described by Wayfaring.
So in short if you want to live in the sport world train and execute like they do in the sports world. If you want to add to your self defense skills or want to get into a martial art for various reasons then I would say WC is the way to go.
And if you want an esoteric culmination of mumbo jumbo and an instructor who made up his own branch of WC go seek Hendrick. Only you wont learn any self defense because he can not defense himself!!! HAHAHAHA
[QUOTE=desertwingchun2;1211550]
So in short if you want to live in the sport world train and execute like they do in the sports world. If you want to add to your self defense skills or want to get into a martial art for various reasons then I would say WC is the way to go.[/QUOTE]
Or if you want to train for self-defense you could also train using the sports method, but modified for self-defense.
Aaargh… All the same arguments over and over again but it doesnt add up with what is posted elsewhere . I don’t train wing chun for competition but everyone talking about having to change to adapt to the rules of competition take a look at the clips that are posted on here as representative of good wing chun its all punches to the head ( or chest …lol), other than pure grappling events there aren’t many full contact combat sports that have a problem with punches to the head. Posters on here have even described the punch as wing chun’s primary weapon. Personally the punch is a tiny part of what I train and teach, and is trained for elbow mechanics more than actual use, it is a small part of any of the forms but if we look at what is available as evidence by way of clips / posts it would appear that for many it is the primary weapon so if it works at all it should also work in the sport environment and all of the arguments about rules etc are moot
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1211561]Aaargh… All the same arguments over and over again but it doesnt add up with what is posted elsewhere . I don’t train wing chun for competition but everyone talking about having to change to adapt to the rules of competition take a look at the clips that are posted on here as representative of good wing chun its all punches to the head ( or chest …lol), other than pure grappling events there aren’t many full contact combat sports that have a problem with punches to the head. Posters on here have even described the punch as wing chun’s primary weapon. Personally the punch is a tiny part of what I train and teach, and is trained for elbow mechanics more than actual use, it is a small part of any of the forms but if we look at what is available as evidence by way of clips / posts it would appear that for many it is the primary weapon so if it works at all it should also work in the sport environment and all of the arguments about rules etc are moot[/QUOTE]
Unless you utilize kicking ( which most WC guys do poorly from my experience) your main weapon I’ds th straight punch.
What else is there???
Sure, theres some chops, palm strikes and soon but the straight punch is the primary weapon . Here’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just how it is.
[QUOTE=GlennR;1211592]Unless you utilize kicking ( which most WC guys do poorly from my experience) your main weapon I’ds th straight punch.
What else is there???
Sure, theres some chops, palm strikes and soon but the straight punch is the primary weapon . Here’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just how it is.[/QUOTE]
If you look at many of the wing chun videos out there, they seem to be mostly made up of chops, palm strikes, backhands and other things much more than punches.
[QUOTE=GlennR;1211592]Unless you utilize kicking ( which most WC guys do poorly from my experience) your main weapon I’ds th straight punch.
What else is there???
Sure, theres some chops, palm strikes and soon but the straight punch is the primary weapon . Here’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just how it is.[/QUOTE]
I love the kicks and utilise them wherever possible but they too would be allowed in most full contact events.
As for the the punch, if you go through the forms palm strikes etc appear far more often than punches. I have a strongly held belief that what you train is what is available to you in a fight. I train mostly open hand strikes (with follow up control / eye gouges etc) and fak sao’s with only a limited number of punches outside of teaching / drilling basic elbow mechanics. I’m not saying there is anything wrong / right with making the punch your primary weapon but for those that do they can’t then use the argument of restrictive rules as to why wing chun doesn’t appear / fare well in the competition arena.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1211605]I love the kicks and utilise them wherever possible but they too would be allowed in most full contact events.
As for the the punch, if you go through the forms palm strikes etc appear far more often than punches. I have a strongly held belief that what you train is what is available to you in a fight. I train mostly open hand strikes (with follow up control / eye gouges etc) and fak sao’s with only a limited number of punches outside of teaching / drilling basic elbow mechanics. I’m not saying there is anything wrong / right with making the punch your primary weapon but for those that do they can’t then use the argument of restrictive rules as to why wing chun doesn’t appear / fare well in the competition arena.[/QUOTE]
Yeh, I love the kicks as well and believe that without them your WC will suffer.
You are right about the number of different palm strikes in the forms but the problem with them as far as I’m concerned is that are really only useful once a bridge is made.
They have a very defined kill zone in comparison to say a boxers punch.
So you’re limited with them, and once your opponent works that out he keeps at range nullifying them.
So I stand by my argument, to defined kill zone/range for competition and really only effective with a bridge.
To compete you need to cross train
[QUOTE=LFJ;1211460]Is it that Wing Chun has consistently failed in competition or just that there is a lack of it? There is no reason it can’t be used in competition without change, as I see it, but it seems the goal of those training WC is not often to compete with it. That’s certainly not its main attraction.[/QUOTE]
There were a few WC punters in the early days of MMA, but most of them got beat, often very quickly and soundly.
Alan’s Orr’s guys have done well, but I’m sure Alan would agree that WC with no modification and without serious training in grappling and groundfighting is unlikely to prevail.
Some of Rick Spain’s students have done OK in cage fights too, including a win over a BJJ black belt by Nick Ariel, but all of them only succeeded after extensive cross training.
Trying to be “a WC guy who wins in MMA” is to go on a fool’s errand. If you want to win an MMA fight (or boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling, …) go to a gym that trains people specifically for those competitive sports. Your Sifu who has only every trained and taught WC is the wrong guy for the job.
The main problem with WC goes back to when guys like William Cheung, Kernspecht, etc etc. claimed their art to the baddest and deadliest on the planet, then had all those claims proved to be false in actual contests. Their claims were proved to be at best delusional.
Arguing about rules impeding WC is just rubbish. You need to adapt what you do to the rules, even if it were to bring the ire of the self appointed pundits on internet WC forums.
I don’t see a reason for Wing Chun to need modification to compete in MMA. A good balance of WC & BJJ, with enough skill and luck, one should fare well. That is assuming one doesn’t train in the all too common non-sense WC available.
If WC “can work” against multiple attackers, possible weapons, and other obstacles in real life, then why should it not work against one man on a flat surface in an open, large enough space with no weapons or obstacles but a fence. It’s just you vs him. Two arms, two legs. He may be a trained fighter, but so are you. Right?
There are still two problems though. 1) It seems most WC practitioners aren’t interested in becoming cage fighters. 2) There aren’t a lot of really good WC practitioners anyway.
Trying to be “a WC guy who wins in MMA” is to go on a fool’s errand. If you want to win an MMA fight (or boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling, …) go to a gym that trains people specifically for those competitive sports. Your Sifu who has only every trained and taught WC is the wrong guy for the job.
[/QUOTE]
Far too much inequality in this world of MA comps![/QUOTE]