Wanna Fight? - Real Mentality?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Re: Re: Wanna Fight? - Real Mentality?

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
IMHO, the individual puts it there. The individual has to have the goal and drive to have the ‘Bad ass mentality’, and many do not. You say ‘those who want to fight’, and FWIW there is a smaller percentage of WCers that adopt the ‘want to fight’ mentality and use the ‘will fight if I have to’ one. Where is the acceptance of fighting as a goal? That is where you will find the ones who want to train in WC to be good at fighting.

Why must it be an individual thing though? Wouldn’t WC as a whole benefit more if it was a characteristic of all schools?

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Re: Re: Re: Wanna Fight? - Real Mentality?

Originally posted by SevenStar
Why must it be an individual thing though? Wouldn’t WC as a whole benefit more if it was a characteristic of all schools?

Because, ultimatly MA training is an individual, developmental expreience. Each person who studies will have their own opinions, reasons, attitudes, etc. for why they are studying whatever art they are studying. Schools vary in ‘attitude’ because instructors vary in ‘attitude’. If you ask me, this won’t change, even if there are WC people who develop the characteristic that YOU are looking for there will be those who develop the characteristic that OTHERS are looking for (whatever that is…good or bad).

So, IMHO, it is up to the individual to do this. And if that individual starts a school and passes this to others, it becomes their individual thing.

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When you go watch a Thai boxing training session you are left in no doubt as to what it will be like to train there: hard work, sweat, pain, injury.

When you go to Kwoon and check out some Wing Chun, what do you see? Well, by and large… some forms, co-operative drills, no blood, little sweat, no sparring, lots of talking about theory and efficiency.

Tough chaps and lasses go learn Thai Boxing and learn to fight - softies go learn Wing Chun and think they can fight.

Note: There are, of course, some Wing Chun schools that train hard… its just that the majority of the people who post on this forum, for example, don’t train there.

:rolleyes:

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… not that theres anything wrong with that right B & B?

Remember these guys live a very poverty striken life. They are not doing this for self defense, nor are they doing it for self accomplishment, or just because they like it or even because they want to be a bad ass.

No no no these guys, as pointed out in the article, have made a life out of this and thrown all other opportunities for a living out the window. Also notice I said “for a living”. Yes, this is what these guys do for a living to survive.

We simply do not have the pressures that these guys have. The reason we do M.A is for self accomplishment and simply because we enjoy doing them. Some people claim it is for street survival. But I think this is a pretty lame reason. You want to train hard fine, you want to train soft fine.

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Sure.

But I was talking about the Thai boxing camps etc I’d seen in the UK, Thailand (lived in Bangkok for a couple of years) and Eastern Europe.

Every single one I’ve visited trained very hard - regardless of whether the people training were professional (ie. doing it to make money) or just did it for the H.ell of it.

Now, most of the WCK kwoons I’ve visited…

Sure (again) if people want to train soft, err, good for them. But lets not call it a martial art. Lets call a social event. You meet your friends, have a light workout, talk , talk some more, do a little Chi Sau, go for a beer afterwards (Okay, I concede the latter is potential training for a real encounter - might even provide a real encounter).

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Well what are you trying to achieve by training hard?

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The ability to actually use the art. Violent encounters are never soft :wink:

I completely agree that soft, slow and steady training should exist. But this should, surely, only be one part of your training. Its like learning the dynamics of a punch. You learn the technique and how it is supported by structure, how it travels along a certain path, how energy is used and released… but when all is said and done, it is useless unless you start hitting focus mitts, the heavy bag, a partner padded up etc. The dynamics differ sometimes.

As for “mentality” during training… you just can’t beat the XingYi mentality: Complete destruction, from the moment the fight begins the aim is to not stop until your opponent is pounded into the floor and begging for their Momma!

:smiley:

Softly softly catchee a smack in the face
:stuck_out_tongue:

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I agree with B & B.
I personally think that you’ll fight the way you train. If people talk too much in class, then hopefully they’ll be able to talk their way out of a fight

J

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You definitely fight the way you train, no doubt. But even talking to those people on this forum who don’t want to fight, I believe hard training will build the mentallity of a fighter, which will help you in other areas of life. If you push yourself during training, you will learn to push yourself elsewhere. This is part of the learning process of martial arts - otherwise, it’s dance class. This is part of bettering yourself.

I’m reading a book on Aikido now (its good to learn from other points of view, right?) which has very, very little in it regarding Aikido technique. Instead, its focus is on the harmany the aikidoka pursues with the universe. It stresses training as the process towards a better self - physically, mentally, spiritually…not a way to get to an end necessarily. I bring this up because Aikido is not thought of as a “fighters” art, yet the top people in the art stress training very hard. Not to necessarily be a fighter, although this might be a result, but to also learn about yourself in the process.

All in all, regardless of what you want out of your art, you have to give it your all. Otherwise, I believe you’re not doing martial arts. This is ok too, just realize what it is and what’s it’s not.

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Originally posted by Wilson
You definitely fight the way you train, no doubt. But even talking to those people on this forum who don’t want to fight, I believe hard training will build the mentallity of a fighter,…

IMHO,

Hard training will build the mentallity… all are great.

simple questions I have heard in SEA are

what is your weapon? Do you have one? How destructive is it?
How fast can you exercute? Will you dare to exercute to completion ?

the rest about mental training, philosophy, martial art… that is not applicable there. Because it is about Survival. not about thinking about the art.

It is very simple that, does one has the weapon or weapons and methodology to destroy others, does one’s body can sustain others weapon incase got hit and not destroy. the rest is thinking too much.

But then, does one wants to live that way? I pray that everyone in the world doesnt have to. Because the whole thing just reicarnate over and over again with hate and revenge, one guy gets drop and lost, one is going to revenge. one’s friends is going to help revenge, one’s school is going to fight, one’s tribe is going to going to war… no end of lost and win. and everyone’s life force is consume by the anger and hatret.

I have heard cases that even within school people go sparing and kill others due to emotional uncontrol. then regret for a whole life in denial of self…because that keen emotion to teach others a lesson or to show who is better or bad as.. fighter. and after decade, when one got old, one has fear that the other party is sending some young guy to get one. living in those shadow…and distrust… it is a true account.

with practicing the C artery choke count for how many seconds and the kneeing to the head…ect stuffs … these days in the pop martial art. I am praying no body become vegitable and sue the heck out of the style founder.. and the person. It is very inconsiderate to practice those C artery choke stuffs in sparing because if one doesnt know other’s physical condition, one can accidentally black out and kill others. that is a no no but these days people seems to think macho. just my opinion.

one the other hand, it is an evident that the Chinese martial art form or set even such as SLT is purposely train to not complete the “move”. the ancestors remove the “finish up” or “completion” move to avoid accident. This is to promote as the chinese saying said, " touch is time to stop, win or lost is clear shown". instead of real destroying. That has to do with Mo Dak. which is a different way of life then the bad ass… everything go stuffs.

Another question is also that, if you know other will do what he/she thinks “just to exercute his/her superior technics” to choke you. and even if you might got into black out or even by accident cause you brain dead is not a concern.
The question then is will you spare him/her with your biu jee which “you also are " just” to exercute your technics"? and not thinking the consequence?

Is these above still an art? or it is a type of mental sickness teaching which promote not thinking about consequence.

life is more than just for that. no need to create a loop and one get into looping…

If one wants to get high about fighting, just get some action movies to watch. In real life, damage cannot be reverse. Bad ass.. is not equal to hero and macho.

But then that is just pikachu thought because pikachu value happy then hate. But then the pikachu also has a electric Zap shock weapon… life is a paradox. Pika Pika.

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Originally posted by black and blue
[B]When you go watch a Thai boxing training session you are left in no doubt as to what it will be like to train there: hard work, sweat, pain, injury.

When you go to Kwoon and check out some Wing Chun, what do you see? Well, by and large… some forms, co-operative drills, no blood, little sweat, no sparring, lots of talking about theory and efficiency.

Tough chaps and lasses go learn Thai Boxing and learn to fight - softies go learn Wing Chun and think they can fight.

Note: There are, of course, some Wing Chun schools that train hard… its just that the majority of the people who post on this forum, for example, don’t train there.

:rolleyes: [/B]

that’s exactly my point. people have come to expect such training from thai schools. that same standard should be achievable in a WC school, you would think.

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Wilson:

Only read your opening post and one or two that followed yours on this thread so far…so my apologies in advance if what I’m about to say has already been mentioned…

something I’ve said and advocated a number of times on this forum - but very few people have ever agreed with me that it’s something worth persuing.

You mentioned the toughness of Muay Thai and BJJ training and mentality.

But what else do they have in common that’s missing from the Wing Chun world?

ORGANIZED COMPETITIONS.

And they have them frequently…

So if you want to win a tournament or a championship…you have no choice but to train hard and tough!

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Not to step on anyone’s toes, but, who says that people in Wing Chun are not training as hard as the Thai’s. Just because we don’t hit banana trees doesn’t mean that we aren’t training hard, just that we are training smart. Of course if one wants to put themselves through allot of pain then yeah they will come out tough and strong and all that but not all can or will do this. Thai’s look at Muay Thai, as allot of minorities look at organized sports leagues. It’s their way out of poverty and they will do whatever it takes to get out of that situation. This is allot different from someone here in the rich countries that is participating in Martial Arts for self defense or conditioning. Didn’t Boztepe train for 8 to 10 hours a day for a long period of time? I trained for long periods of time also for many years as did my Sifu, who trained all day for many years, why did we do this? Well I can’t speak for others but I did it because I enjoyed it and I wanted to gain skill in Wing Chun, not really to go out a use it for fighting or competition. Hey, it’s okay if some want to do that, to test their skills, but from my understanding of WC this was not the purpose behind it and even if it was, the whole idea behind the art is to fight without using strength and speed as the primary attributes, to which Muay Thai is.

James

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Black & Blue
“Sure (again) if people want to train soft, err, good for them. But lets not call it a martial art. Lets call a social event. You meet your friends, have a light workout, talk , talk some more, do a little Chi Sau, go for a beer afterwards (Okay, I concede the latter is potential training for a real encounter - might even provide a real encounter).”

I look at it the other way. People want to physically exert themselves and not discuss and demonstrate the theory thats fine but dont call it a martial art - call it Taibo. Nah I dont really think that way but for me I keep fit outside training. Thats something that I dont need a teacher for. I want W.C instruction to develop W.C skill and power.

I did a version of karate that focussed on testing physical limits but not very well thought out as a martial art. Sure these guys were tough and well conditioned, what do you think happens when these people get old. I discovered in a few short years that most of the skills I had from Karate disappeared with the conditioning. I say you want to be fit - go join a gym - that will do the best job. You want to learn a fighting system - go learn that. You want get in the ring - train for that. You want street survival - get a weapon or carry some pepper spray and avoid rough areas, for your family getting a dog is probably one of the best things you can do.

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Originally posted by sihing
Not to step on anyone’s toes, but, who says that people in Wing Chun are not training as hard as the Thai’s. Just because we don’t hit banana trees doesn’t mean that we aren’t training hard, just that we are training smart. Of course if one wants to put themselves through allot of pain then yeah they will come out tough and strong and all that but not all can or will do this. Thai’s look at Muay Thai, as allot of minorities look at organized sports leagues. It’s their way out of poverty and they will do whatever it takes to get out of that situation. This is allot different from someone here in the rich countries that is participating in Martial Arts for self defense or conditioning.

Exactly. Like I said, cma trains for a possibility, whereas we train for an inevitability. Also, as UWC said - organized competitions. The bar would raise across all cma if there were frequent competitions and people who were training for them. As far as training smart, do you really think that thai training is less “smart” than WC training? If so, please explain.

Didn’t Boztepe train for 8 to 10 hours a day for a long period of time? I trained for long periods of time also for many years as did my Sifu, who trained all day for many years, why did we do this? Well I can’t speak for others but I did it because I enjoyed it and I wanted to gain skill in Wing Chun, not really to go out a use it for fighting or competition.

And there’s the problem. That’s too individual. people know to expect intense training when they step in a sport fighting school. People stepping into a kwoon don’t really have the same expectation. People may train hard individually, but that’s not doing any good for the art as a whole.

Hey, it’s okay if some want to do that, to test their skills, but from my understanding of WC this was not the purpose behind it and even if it was, the whole idea behind the art is to fight without using strength and speed as the primary attributes, to which Muay Thai is.

muay thai was the freaking military combat art, along with krabbi krabbong…it became a sport later - similar to the jujutsu/judo transition. The original intent wasn’t to test your skills at all. Does that mean it can’t be used for that? LKFMDC is a lama pai sifu, and they are tearing up the san da world…

As far as fighting without strength, combat sports have similar principles. bjj is all about timing, leverage, space and control - things alot of you guys should be familiar with. boxing and muay thai are the same. strength helps, but isn’t the sole factor. a well placed hook doesn’t have to be hard to knock you on your butt. strength and speed are attributes developed as a direct result of the training, similar to how sensitivity is a by product of yours.
[/B]

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Originally posted by Miles Teg

I look at it the other way. People want to physically exert themselves and not discuss and demonstrate the theory thats fine but dont call it a martial art - call it Taibo. Nah I dont really think that way but for me I keep fit outside training. Thats something that I dont need a teacher for. I want W.C instruction to develop W.C skill and power.

As I said in the post above, those attributes come as a result of the training. you will gain skill alongside it, as you are training your techniques as part of the conditioning that you don’t need a teacher for.

I did a version of karate that focussed on testing physical limits but not very well thought out as a martial art. Sure these guys were tough and well conditioned, what do you think happens when these people get old.

depends on several factors, such as how they trained and how long they competed. one of my judo coaches is 75. I know a guy who had a full contact match to celebrate his 50th birthday. One of my bjj coaches is 39 and still places at every major bjj competition he goes to…

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" LKFMDC is a lama pai sifu, and they are tearing up the san da world… "

Any more information on this or articles. I haven’t heard this. Ray

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check him out on the main forum, or go to his website - he’s a student of chan tai san, and fields san da guys out of his gym. I’ll dig up his website’s url.

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http://www.nykkgym.com/nyk/team.html

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Some of WSl’s students and their students compete in San Shou
tournaments

This guy for instance

chi hok yin

My teacher also use to enter his students into WC/inter style competitions but they got disqualified for being ‘too direct’.