You’ve managed to totally miss the point of my comparison. It’s about making choices based on opportunities. Rickson and local BJJ guy may teach the same art, but they’ll teach it differently. I would prefer to sieze the rare opportunity, whatever it may be.
The talent pool issue is more interesting, and deserves further consideration, (edit) especially if you start considering national and international level competition.
Returning to Phantom’s original question:
If the thrust of your query was will study of SC or Judo cause problems when I shift gears from one to study the other, I don’t think it’d be a problem, since they are fundamentally very similar. I also don’t think it would matter much whether you went SC then Judo or Judo then SC, assuming the level of instruction in each case was pretty good. You’d be learning a lot of the same entering, throwing and gripping stuff in either case. As mentioned above, SC won’t prepare you for Judo groundwork (newaza) and Judo won’t prepare you for SC’s striking aspect, but I’d say it’s a pretty even trade.
Originally posted by StickyHands
Gosh man, you’re stubborn one aint ya? Ok, since I dont carry the rule books with me and you seem to know a lot of about judo even if you never practiced or visited too many matches if I may presume. Then tell me why if it wasnt a rule per se, why all the competitors the place I went stuck to using throws and nothing else? Hmmm… may be it’s one of the “unwritten” mystical rules. Dude, all Im saying, most of those matches do adhere to throws alright? I didnt say grappling doesnt exist in it, but that’s how the nature of the fight is and that’s how it ends up. And if the BJJ guy isnt satisfied with his throwing skills, then if I were him, Id stick to what BJJ do best. But it did seem strange than he wanted execute a lousy throw, the types that you use to get a striker to the ground.
They stick to using throws because the goal is to win by ippon - a full point. ippon is awarded for a throw that results in your opponent being thrown squarely onto his back. half and quarter points are awarded for throws that don’t result in such a clean landing, and from there, groundwork can begin. A 30 second pin = ippon, and submission will end it. BUT, the refs usually only allow 10 seconds on the ground unless noticable progress is being made. That rule is the reason why you don’t see alot of groundwork - time on the ground is severely limited in judo matches.
Originally posted by truewrestler
Judo too sport oriented? Does SC even include any ground work at all? Why not just study Sumo wrestling.
I don’t know what your problem is seeing as I wasn’t trying to disrespect any art, but you must of clearly not understood what I have said. <b>sport oriented</b>, meaning a shadow of what it once was, like TKD. Since the WTF got ahold of TKD, it’s taken measures to make it more flashy, and better as a sport, and less as a real Martial Art for self defense. From what I have head, Judo has started to follow the same path, where they have altered the art itself to make it more sport and less combat effective. There is a real big difference in an art that is recognised as simply sport (Muay Thai, Boxing) and an art the started as a martial art and has been watered down to be more of a sport.
Arts like judo and muay thai were actually enhanced when they became sports… why? because they became very competitive, meaning that the competitors HAD to train hard, HAD to stay in shape, HAD to stay on top of their game… It also made it harder to BS your credentials in those arts the way you can with many non-sport styles. You can bet that the avg. sport fighter trains harder than the avg TMA or CMA that you see today for that very reason, making it irrelevant whether or not the sport art is “watered down”
SevenStar - but that’s in large part because the sport was
a - popular enough to draw a large talent pool
b - challenging enough to draw a high level of talent
c - created with rules that permitted a high degree of contact
Basically, not all sports are created equal.
Originally posted by SevenStar
Arts like judo and muay thai were actually enhanced when they became sports… why? because they became very competitive, meaning that the competitors HAD to train hard, HAD to stay in shape, HAD to stay on top of their game… It also made it harder to BS your credentials in those arts the way you can with many non-sport styles. You can bet that the avg. sport fighter trains harder than the avg TMA or CMA that you see today for that very reason, making it irrelevant whether or not the sport art is “watered down”
I agree with you about sport fighters training harder. I took Muay Thai for a while and that is one he|| of a work out for your endurance! But the fact that some things are watered down can make a difference for someone who is looking for combat training. It all depends upon how much. I don’t know about how much (or little) Judo has changed as my source of information about it is limited to text unfortunatly. Something like Muay Thai could be used pretty effectively on the street, but TKD I have my doubts about unless the other guy just likes to act tough and really is a wimp.
This is rich… JUDO WAS NEVER created to be used as self defense or deadly combat, it comes along with training yes and shows those aspects as part of the training. But the whole reason Kano watered down Jujutsu so it would be LESS deadly and self defense oriented and more competition material, safe to execute. I know what you mean by sometimes being ineffective as TKD, but why are talking just about Judo, that applies for any art. Judo, again was never designed to be self defense or “feudal times samurai war combat.”
Concerning taking SC over Judo be perhaps a good idea since the opportunity is so rare, but there still the danger of the teacher not being as good how traditional SC teachers are. Just because it’s exclusive, doesnt guarantee it’s efficacy. It’s like Bujinkan Taijutsu (Ninjutsu), I got one in my neighborhood, and they are so hard to find over the country, but what I heard from people, the dude cant teach very well, even if he himself good.
well check him out Sticky Hands, you might find he is quite good before forming an opinion. Judging others based off opinion of others without meeting is kind of, well, arrogant.
As for truwrestler, lets try it this way. Would you rather learn Brazilian JiuJitsu from the Gracies, personally? Or would you rather take sport TKD?
Oh no, lol, that was example, sorry if it seemed real. I wouldnt have said it otherwise.
I intend to check it out yes, but Im not entirely judging, just what friends said. So that’s why I didnt exactly give the instructor’s name. hehe.
I would NOT study BOTH.. As you said, they are similar, this is precisely WHY you should not mix them. They may be similar, but they will most certainly have many, many subtle differences. I have been training in my school for two and a half years; I still occasionally find myself having to try to pry some piece of movement left over from my previous teachers (IN THE SAME ART! Though not the same lineage..) which at one time may have been a boon, but now is a liability and a hindrance. Something like trying to duck your chin down and bounce on the balls of your toes (Bam! Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee!) while trying to execute a Taijiquan push based on the principles of keeping the spine straight and heels firmly rooted.
If you’re going to study two arts, study two arts that are so radically different that their ranges never cross. Greco-Roman Wrestling and Savate, for instance..
Something just occured to me: how can Judo be watered down jujutsu when it has fewer techniques? That sounds like concentration, not dilution.
And in fact, that’s the main argument why judoka beat jujutsu fighters way back when - they worked fewer techniques harder and got better at using them
And, in fact, that’s a large part of the argument of the superiority of sportfighting generally: that only reliable techniques are used and they’re trained to as close to perfection as the practicioners can achieve.
And not only is it logical, it seems to be empirically demonstrated a lot.
So, repeat after me: sport fighting isn’t watered down martial arts, it is concentrated martial arts.
I dont think by concentration, you mean to say squeezing the orange juice and getting rid of the pulps? I think by watering down, it meant getting rid of the deadly throws, whatever they were. My guess why Judo beat Jujutsu is simply because they trained harder, and a lot more counters for every moves, they fought principle based, had perfect timing for everything, required better skills than which jujutsu team had, and all and all, they were probably were just lucky like most good fights. Some would also argue that Kano was a lousy practitoner as a traditionalist. So he found ways to modernise it or make it easier for his students to train, or simply, make Japanese budo popular. All in all, it’s relative. But when people means watered down, they mean lousy instructors who dont give a hoot about their students but simply advertise for customers.
I can’t figure out why people say Judo can’t be used in the street. Ok so punches/kicks aren’t big, and you focus on sport, but if you throw your opponent on concrete out on the street and he lands on his back, that is going to hurt like a bitch, because while he lands on his back he’ll probably land on his head too. Or better yet, just don’t complete the throw. Get about half way through and let the guy go and let him land on his head.
no one says u cant. lol. u can use ur spit as a method of self defense. but when we say judo isnt self defense art, as pseudo historians, we mean it was first refined to be toward competitive bout than a battlfield budo.
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
[B]SevenStar - but that’s in large part because the sport was
a - popular enough to draw a large talent pool
b - challenging enough to draw a high level of talent
c - created with rules that permitted a high degree of contact
Basically, not all sports are created equal. [/B]
I don’t disagree, but pretty much all fighting sports fall into those categories, with the possible exception of TKD because of contact.
Originally posted by Kymus
[B]
I agree with you about sport fighters training harder. I took Muay Thai for a while and that is one he|| of a work out for your endurance! But the fact that some things are watered down can make a difference for someone who is looking for combat training. It all depends upon how much. I don’t know about how much (or little) Judo has changed as my source of information about it is limited to text unfortunatly. Something like Muay Thai could be used pretty effectively on the street, but TKD I have my doubts about unless the other guy just likes to act tough and really is a wimp. [/B]
I’ve seen an olympic style TKD friend of mine kick arse in a fight. I’ve had the wind knocked outta me from his kicks too.
http://www.tacomajudo.com/History.htm
“Because Jujutsu was strictly an offensive combat technique, application of such techniques was generally viewed as potentially very dangerous to its victims.”
Sounds like Kung Fu ehhh? Good thing someone came up with San Shou
Arguing over something like this on the internet is like playing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.