Im sorry for acting like a troll… but other than judo i’m oblivious to shuai chiao.. and i’m wondering who to take shai chiao from. My friend told me they’re almost identical.. but my other one highly disagrees with him.. but both can’t provide with good reasons.
grabs a beer and throws the popcorn in the microwave, this is gonna be fun…
Shuai Jiao and Shuai Chiao .. is there a difference? or just spelled differently.. .. c’mon guyyss help meh outs.. i wanna kno what else to take to compliment my bjj after i get a black belt.. 
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=271
It’s amazing what you can find at the E-zine site if you do a search…
pass the popcorn…
I guess I’ll start… I won’t touch any question about who you should take SC from, but as far as differences between sc and judo, I’ll list a few.
sc is actually more similar to sumo in that they crash into the opponent in some instances, as opposed to judo’s more passive kazushi.
sc throws, while similar in look, usually involve limb breaks somewhere in the throw.
the goal of a judo throw is for your opponent to land flat on his back. In sc, you want him to land on his head.
judo has plenty of groundwork, sc has none.
sc has a greater concentration on strikes. judo has strikes, but often times, you don’t learn them until black belt level.
sc has more apparatus training - pulleys, rock pole, brooms, bricks, belt cracking, etc. judo utilizes inner tube training in a similar method to the pulley.
judo tends to rely on gi grabs, even though you can train to grab muscle, use hooks, etc.
I’ll let that be a starter. Others can add if they wish.
I guess I have to post something now 
Earth Dragon, cover your ears because you’re going to be very unhappy to learn that I also have credentials in Shuai Jiao. I’m no “master” but I’ve studied with Jeng Hsin Ping, a direct student of Chang Tung Sheng…
My Judo knowledge is based upon the research and writings of many, but certainly Mark Tripp, a close friend, was influential
Judo as envisioned by Kano was NOT a “sport” in the sense that most think of today. Kano instead wanted a modern martial art that was efficient, effective, had good physical education values, would educate and envigorate his nation. “sport” is not the correct term to describe his central idea, rather it is “randori” or alive practice that is the key. IE dangerous techniques were not so much eliminated as side lined so that a regular alive practice could be made possible. Regular alive practice made for functional skills.
At the time, certainly it was easier to practice grappling with relative safety as opposed to striking. They did not have the advances in head gear, gloves, shin pads, elbow pads etc that the 21st c martial artist has
The history and purpose of Judo has been obscured because after WW II all martial arts were BANNED in Japan. The ONLY way that the Kodokan could re-open and Judo live on was for Kano’s son (Kano had already passed) to re-package and “sell” Judo to the occupying forces as nothing but an elaborate Asian gym class.
IN fact, certain writing of Kano’s were surpressed by his son and the “new” Kodokan. The history of challenges matches, etc were also surpressed
As far as Shuai Chiao, if you want to compare it to Judo you are on tense policitcal ground. The Japanes controlled Taiwan for many years and introduced Judo there. When Shuai Chiao arrived in Taiwan, Chang Tung Sheng expressly desired to remove this Japanese martial art influence and viewed Judo as his key enemy. The recent comments by his grandson show that even today, this uneasyness with Judo is alive and well
A LOT of the people Chang converted to Shuai Chiao had judo backgrounds (Daniel Weng as example)…
Extremely delicate, and what wil bring YouKnowWho here most likely and other Shuai Chiao people and maybe create the flame war of the holiday season, is how much Judo influenced Shuai Chiao
Historically, Shuai Chia PRE dates Judo, and gusy as respected as Donn Draeger say they thought Judo was probably influenced by Shuai Chiao as far as technique. Chang for example had a very old tapestry with Shuai Chiao techniques similar to techniques the Kodokan only adopted much later…
But in Taiwan in the 1950’s and 1960’s, I think that any honest historian can see how Shuai Chiao adopted things from Judo, mostly STRUCTURE… No one has ever convinced me the black belts levels existed in China before Chang came to Taiwan
Technically speaking, Shuai Chiao is probably closer to what Judo was like BEFORE WW II… more a combat art supplemented by a “sport” or randori…
modern Judo has pushed things like weapon defense and striking into the corner in favor of skill in randori, principally jacket wrestling
Shuai Chiao still spends a lot of time on weapon defenses, striking, these subjects, probably meaning their players are less skilled in pure jacket throwing than the Judoka who do nothing but jacket throwing
Shuai Chiao is less modern, and less open to change. They are stil proud of their primative training devices while the Kodokan embraced modern western weight training as early as the 1950’s…
Kodokan embraced Ne Waza (ground prctice) early in its history, but relatively late in the broader history of martial arts. Ne Waza was not a huge subject in classical Bujitsu, ie Samuari fighting arts…
Shuai Chiao has basicly no Ne Waza to speak of. Comparable to the classical Jujitsu Ryu that relied upon “deadly” techniques that could not be tested live
Way to go David..
Following a post like that it won’t nearly be as comical when I say
Judo actually works.
I have not done SC, so I won’t pretend to be an authority.
However, that said, grappling is grappling. I wrestled and have done some judo. As ST00 can attest (he also wrestled), a “throw is a throw is a throw.” If you know how to grapple, you know how to grapple. Anything you are likely to see in one, you will be able to draw a direct analogy to the other.
There are differences in execution to be sure - but whether I call it flying mare, seoi nage or one arm shoulder throw or something else entirely, it’s pretty much the same.
My advice? Go with whatever has the best instruction in your area. The skills will transfer over just fine. What will happen is, if you switch around or something, people will say “no, like THIS!,” and want you to step more in one direction, or cut harder here, or move your hand to a different spot.
It’s all the same ****. The game changes a little without handles (or with them, depending), but being good at one will just about automatically make you at least competent in the other.
why do greeks make good training brothers?
Because they never leave their brothers behind:) in response to what dave said about the Greeks. I knew Chris would get my twisted humor. Unfotunatly a bunch of historians jumped in to correct me. Not that they werent informative about good old Alexaner who never left a soldiers behind. Lets not forget about the but lick kune.
Who said Dave Ross doesn’t know everything
I guess I can understand why people get mad at dave. He’s so dam smart, not to mention he is a great San Da coach, he’s also very Informative when it comes to the Lama Pai system an almost extict and un herd of style of kung fu. Of course Dave did wright many informative articles on Lama choy lei fut and Di sing peck gwa. And to boot He speaks Mandarine and Cantonese fluently. Yup he certainly is arrogant at times. What daves problem is that he has not yet learned to Clark Kent his super intelectual powers from all the stupid people who feel a bit inferior. Yup I hate that guy lol;)
Who said Dave Ross doesn’t know everything
I guess I can understand why people get mad at dave. He’s so dam smart, not to mention he is a great San Da coach, he’s also very Informative when it comes to the Lama Pai system an almost extict and un herd of style of kung fu. Of course Dave did wright many informative articles on Lama choy lei fut and Di sing peck gwa. And to boot He speaks Mandarine and Cantonese fluently. Yup he certainly is arrogant at times. What daves problem is that he has not yet learned to Clark Kent his super intelectual powers from all the stupid people who feel a bit inferior. Yup I hate that guy lol;)
In the past 50 years in Taiwan, SC guys and Judo guys were natural born enemies and one group always tried to destroy the other group with all cost. Not sure thing has been changed today. The highest rank Judo master tried to challenge the highest rank SC master. It didn’t happen and settled by personal letter (maybe someone can help translate this).
http://johnswang.com/Chang_let1.jpg
http://johnswang.com/Chang_let2.jpg
Since I have 0 knowledge in Judo, some of my assumption may not be correct (need help from Judo expert on this).
- SC uses more circle motion; Judo uses more straight line motion.
- SC uses more “stealing step move one leg behind the other” to advance, Judo use more “covering step move one leg in front of the other” to advance.
- SC uses more “equipment training”, Judo uses less “equipment training”.
- SC has sole forms, Judo has no sole forms (not sure on this).
- SC uses more “tearing break opponent’s grab”, Judo uses less “tearing”.
- SC uses “elbow cracking” to break grab. It’s illegal in Judo.
- SC guy likes to run behind his opponent. Not sure about Judo.
- SC uses more brutal force (run down your opponent), Judo uses less brutal force.
- SC guy likes to control opponents elbow, Judo guy likes to control opponents wrist.
- SC guy likes to hurt opponents hand grab (Black Hand techniques), it may be illegal in Judo to do that.
- Some major moves in SC are considered illegal moves (such as leg twisting, inner leg blocking) in Judo.
- SC move such as knee seizing one hand push on shoulder, one hand pull below the leg may be illegal in Judo.
- SC has no ground fight, Judo has ground fight.
- SC uses 10 to 1 Dan (1 Dan is the highest), Judo uses 1 to 10 degree black belt (10th degree is the highest).
- SC starts from separation, Judo starts from grab on each other (no sure it has been changed or not).
- SC uses force to force opponent to make commitment, Judo waits for your opponent to make commitment (not 100% sure on this).
- SC is similar to XingYi, Judo is similar to Taiji.
- SC match do not allow you to grab on your opponents pants. Not sure about Judo.
- Most of the SC matches are performed outdoor. Judo matches are performed indoor.
- SC uses different break fall than Judo.
- Joint breaking are legal in SC but may be illegal in Judo.
- In SC tradition, your opponent can turn down your challenge if he does not have SC jacket on. Not sure on this for Judo tradition.
- In SC tradition, if you are killed or injured by your opponent when you have SC jacket on then you cannot sue your opponent. Not sure on this for Judo tradition.
- Even in sport SC (not combat SC), some kind of striking (such as hook punch followed by head lock) before throwing are allowed. Striking is not allowed in Judo.
- SC requires shoes during matches, Judo uses bare foot.
- SC jacket is tight, Judo uniform is loose.
- SC guy puts on his jacket infront of his opponent to show no hidden weapon (in the ancient time). Not the case for Judo guy (you would never know whether the Judo guy hides a gun or knife inside his Judo uniform or not).
- Most SC throws starting with one grab and get the 2nd grab when opponent moves in. Judo starts with 2 grabs.
Isn’t there a rather long history of Judo out there somewhere by Mark Tripp?
ST00, didn’t you post a link to it a while back? I just tried a search for it but didn’t find it.
Here.
…
Thanks.
8 9 10
FWIW, there are some inaccuracies in both the article and Coach Ross’ post (only one, really).
EITHER it is jujutsu or judo. There is NO middle ground here.
Early Judo was also called Kano Ryu Jujutsu.
Dragger spells this out plainly in his works on Bujutsu both old and modern; to wit 1. No Belt Ranks 2. No sparring, only kata and one steps 3. Training for the Battlefield only I could post more but you get the point. ALL traditional bujutsus were about killing someone in the course of defending or storming a castle, or fighting a large-scale battle.
Not really. The no belt ranks part is right, but several koryu jujutsu ryuha practised some form of sparring/randori - including the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, which is one of the two ryu that Kano studied, and based Judo on.
Not all traditional bujutsu were battlefield oriented. In fact, most were founded after the beginning of the Tokugawa Shogunate - when the country was at peace (ie. no battles to fight..). There is a marked difference between the techniques of say, Takenouchi Ryu Kogusoku Koshi no Mawari, and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu jujutsu. Takenouchi Ryu was founded around 1500, during the warring states period, and is geared toward close quarters combat, with a variety of weapons, while wearing armour, and fighting someone wearing armour - ie. a strong battlefield combat focus.
Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, founded around 1830, is largely a plain clothes, ‘self defence’ style of jujutsu, with no battlefield focus. There are some weapons defences, and a focus on joint locks, strangulations, breaks and throws. Takenouchi Ryu focuses on controlling the enemy, then stabbing them through weak points in their armour - ie. mainly has the exponent using a weapon (although there are unarmed techniques.).
Yes, there are a few styles in Japan keeping their old traditions alive. Just like some people in this country go into the woods and play “Civil War” for a few weeks every year. These are not living, changing, adapting systems; but people who enjoy playing Samurai. Nothing wrong with that; but don’t try and sell it as a modern effective system.
No offense, but Mr. tripp obviously has very limited experience with the koryu bugei. Comparing them to someone 'playing civil war" is pretty rude - and I’m sure with some experience he would change his mind about that. And to dismiss them as ineffective with no experience in them… arrogant much? The Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is still (very) alive and well, and is just about one of the most awesomely brutal and effective grappling systems I’ve ever seen.
The fact is, using Draeger’s definitions of Bujutsu/Budo as Mr. Tripp has is wildly inaccurate. Draeger’s definitions were used for a purpose, and that was to highlight the fact that kendo, judo and karate were not classical systems. FWIW, having read Mr. Tripp rant on about the differences between the ‘battlefield bujutsu’ that Judo was (supposedly) based on, and the ‘personal budo’ that it became, it might be interesting to note that Draeger himself considered Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu, Kito Ryu Jujutsu (the two jujutsu ryu Kano studied, and based Judo on), along with other koryu founded during the Edo period, as ‘Classical BUDO’ - not bujutsu - he only considered ryuha founded before the Edo Period (Maniwa Nen-Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu, Katori Shinto Ryu etc.) to be ‘Bujutsu’.
I have little to no knowledge of either of these arts other than what I have read here and there and the following useless piece of ancedotal evidence. But since it’s a slow day at work I’ll share.
My future father in law is a black belt in judo (he hasn’t practiced in years and he’s not in any physical shape to teach me anything unfortunately) was recruited from Japan to BYU to wrestle for them. He told me that the toughest person he ever fought was an aikido practitioner because he would grab and control his wrists and hands so well and this was illegal in judo.
Ok, go back to SC and judo. John Wang’s post reminded me of that story.
the judoka breakdown
- SC uses more circle motion; Judo uses more straight line motion.
-judo has both. ex the kusushi (offbalancing) and tsukuri (entering)for osoto gari is very linear, while a throw like hiza guruma or O guruma are very circular. practically swinging off your opponent like square dancing!
- SC uses more “stealing step – move one leg behind the other” to advance, Judo use more “covering step – move one leg in front of the other” to advance.
- tsugi ashi one foot leads the other follows. and tai sabaki must be done very swiftly as it involves turning movements. The feet rarely come together because of the desire to always have the most balance available.
- SC uses more “equipment training”, Judo uses less “equipment training”.
-Agree. tatame and a gi and you can do judo.
- SC has sole forms, Judo has no sole forms (not sure on this).
- Yes judo has no solo forms all judo forms are 2 man sets.
- SC uses more “tearing – break opponent’s grab”, Judo uses less “tearing”.
-Grip fighting? judo has alot of it.
- SC uses “elbow cracking” to break grab. It’s illegal in Judo.
-What is this?
- SC guy likes to run behind his opponent. Not sure about Judo.
-There are throws from the rear like ura nage and tani otoshi.
- SC uses more brutal force (run down your opponent), Judo uses less brutal force.
- Depends on the player from my experience.
- SC guy likes to control opponent’s elbow, Judo guy likes to control opponent’s wrist.
- Some judoka want wrist control, others want elbow (like me) others want double lapels.
- SC guy likes to hurt opponent’s hand grab (Black Hand techniques), it may be illegal in Judo to do that.
-some grip breaking is pretty nasty.
- Some major moves in SC are considered illegal moves (such as leg twisting, inner leg blocking) in Judo.
-Can you explain these?
- SC move such as “knee seizing – one hand push on shoulder, one hand pull below the leg” may be illegal in Judo.
no, judo has takedowns and pickups.
- SC has no ground fight, Judo has ground fight.
-yes. newaza
- SC uses 10 to 1 Dan (1 Dan is the highest), Judo uses 1 to 10 degree black belt (10th degree is the highest).
-yes
- SC starts from separation, Judo starts from grab on each other (no sure it has been changed or not).
- judoka start free standing about 6 feet from each other.
- SC uses force to force opponent to make commitment, Judo waits for your opponent to make commitment (not 100% sure on this).
Push when pulled, pull when pushed. judo often wants to turn existing motion into an offbalancing for a throw.
- SC is similar to XingYi, Judo is similar to Taiji.
-that’s an insult. take that back!
- SC match do not allow you to grab on your opponent’s pants. Not sure about Judo.
-allowed.
- Most of the SC matches are performed outdoor. Judo matches are performed indoor.
-true.
- SC uses different “break fall” than Judo.
-yes.
- Joint breaking are legal in SC but may be illegal in Judo.
- You are allowed to joint lock the elbow in judo and your opponent is expected to tap out.
- In SC tradition, your opponent can turn down your challenge if he does not have SC jacket on. Not sure on this for Judo tradition.
- “challenges” do not exist. you just train and compete.
- In SC tradition, if you are killed or injured by your opponent when you have SC jacket on then you cannot sue your opponent. Not sure on this for Judo tradition.
- I’d like to hear a lawyers opinion on this one..
- Even in sport SC (not combat SC), some kind of striking (such as hook punch followed by head lock) before throwing are allowed. Striking is not allowed in Judo.
SC requires shoes during matches, Judo uses bare foot.
SC jacket is tight, Judo uniform is loose.
-yes.
- SC guy puts on his jacket infront of his opponent to show no hidden weapon (in the ancient time). Not the case for Judo guy (you would never know whether the Judo guy hides a gun or knife inside his Judo uniform or not).
-ooookkayyy…
- Most SC throws starting with one grab and get the 2nd grab when opponent moves in. Judo starts with 2 grabs.
- depends on the throw. most involves both hands gripping
yes, it was, but the name was technically incorrect as judo is not a koryu style. Consequently, it cannot be considered a jutsu…