Swaui jao no good. Judo so good.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Note: This is a thread about swai jiao and NOT Robert W. Smith. I just threw his name in for background.

I read the chapter written by the recently departed Robert W. Smith and wanted to bring this up in a separate thread.

This is not a thread bashing him so do not get all, “Oh, he just passed away so let us not discuss this.”

He thought judo was better and i believe this is natural for him since he studied judo.

Swai jiao has its list of issues though. First off too many people just happen to be teaching swai jiao today but their main art is ba gua, or tai chi, or whatever. How do these people claim to teach swai jiao when swai jiao is actually its own art? i think it is marketing to have throwing in their school since mma is so big.

Judo has belts. Swai jiao…not so much. I do not believe they have one ranking system which is problematic. This allows my unqualified son to teach in my name after i die even though he was not a blackbelt among blackbelts. I taught him the secrets while I was yelling at him to do his homework when no one else was looking.

The main issue with these people teaching swai jiao is that they have never won a swai jiao competition. And I believe you need to have actually won a bunch of them just to make sure the gold metal was a fluke.

And lastly what I have heard about swai jiao competition is not good. Sifu Gino posted this in another thread about some competition in Ohio. He said that if you pay the competition fee, and there is no on in your weight class, you can either take the gold metal or get your money back. Well whupteedooda. I just won the competition, mom. Wow, you must have kicked a s s, son. No, actually no one showed up so I won by the kung fu of showing up at the right time and right place. If this is true for all these comps how many swai jaio teachers won medals by default and how many of these guys are teaching and using this competition record to draw in gullible students?

I have never studied swai jiao because it is not available but what I have seen on the internet makes my stomach curl.

Judo has organization just like tkd. Too bad the chinese are not as organized as the japanese and the koreans.

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I started a thread to take the issue of his books away from a thread about his passing…

You might note what I just wrote there…

We can then either continue there OR here… but no point in having a conversation divided into two threads

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Oh, he’s gonna haunt you now dude :eek:

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1112833]I started a thread to take the issue of his books away from a thread about his passing…

You might note what I just wrote there…

We can then either continue there OR here… but no point in having a conversation divided into two threads[/QUOTE]
good luck with that…

I think Smith was only shown what he was shown, and was prone to snap judgements.
This being said, I do feel judo spends more time on foot sweeps and unbalancing, which is a highly effective skill. That is not to say that SJ doesn’t have this, only that in the beginning stages of Judo, alot of time is spent on this.

I have yet to hear from someone who is advanced in both arts. I would be interested in hearing an educated opinion on such things as the SJ fall vs the Judo fall, and others.

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Having done both I can say here are strengths and weakness in both.
Judo is far better on the ground, obviously and SC is more complete with it’s blending of strikes.

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judo is codified shuai jiao

gi or no gi.

there are many throwing techniques across all styles

including ba gua and tai ji.

–

shuai jiao since 6 year old.

judo since in high school.

there

:smiley:

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[QUOTE=SPJ;1112845]
there are many throwing techniques across all styles

including ba gua and tai ji.

:D[/QUOTE]

Just because the throwing techniques are the same does not mean the tai chi person has done them in the same frequency as the judo/swai guy. These guys should be claiming that they teach throwing but cannot claim to be teaching swai jiao which is supposed to be its own art.

If I teach hip toss to my son does that mean I am a swai jiao teacher? I cannot wait to put that on my website!

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I know of one well known wrestler who speaks of winning a SJ championship and he used only his wrestling background to do so.

Would you now advertise that you teach it?

PS: This person does.

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[QUOTE=Kevin73;1112852]I know of one well known wrestler who speaks of winning a SJ championship and he used only his wrestling background to do so.

Would you now advertise that you teach it?

PS: This person does.[/QUOTE]

THis is the shady side of swai jiao. I am glad you told this story.

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[QUOTE=TenTigers;1112838]good luck with that…

I have yet to hear from someone who is advanced in both arts. I would be interested in hearing an educated opinion on such things as the SJ fall vs the Judo fall, and others.[/QUOTE]

Who cares about an educated opinion. Which style of falling works better for you?

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[QUOTE=Kevin73;1112852]I know of one well known wrestler who speaks of winning a SJ championship and he used only his wrestling background to do so.

Would you now advertise that you teach it?

PS: This person does.[/QUOTE]

If you are talking about Matt Furey he trained with Daniel Weng for a LONG TIME

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[QUOTE=Mattador;1112855]Who cares about an educated opinion. Which style of falling works better for you?[/QUOTE]

The one where the other guy falls and I’m still standing!

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Is this pretty much a dead horse by now?

[QUOTE=TenTigers;1112838]I would be interested in hearing an educated opinion on such things as the SJ fall vs the Judo fall, and others.[/QUOTE]
SC fall has one simple purpose - protect your head.

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What’s the difference between SJ and San Shou?

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There’s no striking in SJ.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1112882]Is this pretty much a dead horse by now?

SC fall has one simple purpose - protect your head.[/QUOTE]

Dead horse? Maybe for you guys. I browsed the archives back through about 1,000 threads and didn’t see any references to this issue. So what’s the deal? I think I recall reading a description of the two approaches to falling about 30 years ago in one of Robert W. Smith’s books… but I’m not sure. It was something about how the Swai Jiao guys tucked and covered their heads, clasping the back of their necks with their hands rather than doing a Judo style breakfall slapping the ground? It stuck in my mind because it concurred with what my old Chinese sifu was teaching me at that time. But I wasn’t studying a grappling art, and falls weren’t our specialty. The only grappling/throwing art I’ve ever trained was wrestling (as a kid) so all this stuff is new to me.

I’d like to hear the pros and cons of these two approaches from some of you who have tried both.

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[QUOTE=JamesC;1112888]There’s no striking in SJ.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm… just did some research on both of them. Seems like neither has a big competition field and that more than a few “national champions” had zero, one, or two other competitors in their classes.

Pretty easy to claim “championships” when this is the case.

Matt Furey won the “world championships” in SJ with about a year of training.

Tim Ferris won the “national Sanshou” championship with almost no training, other than some basic MMA and a little wrestling.

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[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1112890]I’d like to hear the pros and cons of these two approaches from some of you who have tried both.[/QUOTE]
SC fall:

  • Use one arm as pillow behind the head.
  • Use another arm to protect your head from attacking from above.
  • Turn your body sideway.
  • Bend your legs.
  • Try not to hit one knee on top anothe knee.
  • Curve your body into a small ball.
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[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1112890]It was something about how the Swai Jiao guys tucked and covered their heads, clasping the back of their necks with their hands rather than doing a Judo style breakfall slapping the ground? It stuck in my mind because it concurred with what my old Chinese sifu was teaching me at that time. .[/QUOTE]

They are both only for landing in practice.

Watch how high level competitors really fall when they get thrown or taken down and you will see that neither is really that applicable to what really happens.

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[QUOTE=Mattador;1112830]Swai jiao has its list of issues though. First off too many people just happen to be teaching swai jiao today but their main art is ba gua, or tai chi, or whatever. How do these people claim to teach swai jiao when swai jiao is actually its own art? i think it is marketing to have throwing in their school since mma is so big.[/QUOTE]

First let me say that Shuai Chiao has been a part almost all Chinese martial arts since the beginning of time. All Chinese MA have Punch, Kick, Grab and Throw as a part of their curriculum. You are assuming that Ba Gua and Tai Chi etc etc do not have a full throwing curriculum?

There are Shuai Chiao sport curriculums that teach SC as a combative sport. However, many old school kung fu styles teach SC as a complete self defense system. Even though I teach sport SC, I also teach a full curriculum of combative throwing for self defense. We practice SC for self defense just as much as any Judo styles drill their Combative Sport throws. Have you ever heard of the 108 Claws of the Ying Jow Pai? Northern Shaolin also has “108 Throws of Bak Sil Lum”. Many styles include throwing as a part of their system.

[QUOTE=Mattador;1112830]Judo has belts. Swai jiao…not so much. I do not believe they have one ranking system which is problematic. This allows my unqualified son to teach in my name after i die even though he was not a blackbelt among blackbelts. I taught him the secrets while I was yelling at him to do his homework when no one else was looking.[/QUOTE]

Rankings systems do not equate to skill level. You can be skilled with out any rank from any style. I have a 4th. degree Black Belt from another style join my school and was getting beat up by my under Black Belts. What you may consider a certain skill level, may not be the same consideration I have.

[QUOTE=Mattador;1112830]And lastly what I have heard about swai jiao competition is not good. Sifu Gino posted this in another thread about some competition in Ohio. He said that if you pay the competition fee, and there is no on in your weight class, you can either take the gold metal or get your money back. Well whupteedooda. I just won the competition, mom. Wow, you must have kicked a s s, son. No, actually no one showed up so I won by the kung fu of showing up at the right time and right place. If this is true for all these comps how many swai jaio teachers won medals by default and how many of these guys are teaching and using this competition record to draw in gullible students?[/QUOTE]

Yes SC is not quite as popular as Judo. Judo has been gaining popularity since the 60’s and 70’s. Where SC has been relatively unknown to the public. There needs to be more public awareness concerning SC. I have been to very high level competitions in China. At the time, Matt Fuery was on the US team, we had a a lot of high level player from the country.

Mattador: You are trying to guess the level skill of some SC people by looking at a tournament? Combative Sports are fun and a good source of information but, you can not draw conclusions about a style or systems because you look at a tournament.

ginosifu