when you started wing chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=shaolin_allan;1121103]I was talking about as a beginner to WCk from other martial arts.[/QUOTE]
If you already have combat ability from another style, when you cross train a new style, you want to pick up whatever that you don’t have and ignore whatever that you already have. This way you don’t have to throw away everything that you know and start from ground zero again. If you think you are the master and all styles are your slaves, you should not have such problem.

The “cross training” is just like a married man, you don’t have to divoce your wife to have sex with another girl. :smiley:

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1121105]Dont worry about Graham, he’s just sensitive to non PB WCers… its challenges his religious beliefs :wink:

Back to topic, ive been doing MT for 3 years now and thought id transitioned pretty quickly from the closed hip-open hip (WC-MT) method of power generation.
In hindsight it took me a lot longer and im sure the other way around would have been just as hard.
But maybe im just slow ;)[/QUOTE]

PB WC? I mean I understood the point Graham made and it was a good one, but Chum Kiu is something students are taught after they’ve been into their school for a while. I don’t think you’re slow at all and would also have a good amount of difficulty going from MT to WC and vice versa it was the same for me going from tkd to wc.

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[QUOTE=shaolin_allan;1121111]PB WC? I mean I understood the point Graham made and it was a good one, but Chum Kiu is something students are taught after they’ve been into their school for a while. I don’t think you’re slow at all and would also have a good amount of difficulty going from MT to WC and vice versa it was the same for me going from tkd to wc.[/QUOTE]

I was just joking Allan

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1121112]I was just joking Allan[/QUOTE]

Haha nah I know you were I was just saying it can be tough to transition to a style like WC for anyone. It was a funny joke though :wink:

Another funny as hell quote

The “cross training” is just like a married man, you don’t have to divoce your wife to have sex with another girl.

But the sinking hips and even the turning and use of the hips seem like they can feel very awkward at first and specific to WC.

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If you already have combat ability from another style, when you cross train a new style, you want to pick up whatever that you don’t have and ignore whatever that you already have. This way you don’t have to throw away everything that you know and start from ground zero again. If you think you are the master and all styles are your slaves, you should not have such problem.

Might work for two striking arts … definitely doesn’t work for a striker learning to grapple or vice versa.

Also, the WC I was taught very much uses the hip … and from what I understand the same is true for CSLWC (Robert Chu / Alan Orr).

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1121562]
Also, the WC I was taught very much uses the hip … and from what I understand the same is true for CSLWC (Robert Chu / Alan Orr).[/QUOTE]

Most if not all TCMAs use the hip, but there are different ways the hips are used. The way you were taught to use the hips in Wing Chun is pribably taught in all knowledges.

However,if you are using lets say a straigtht walking in punch then you will not be twisting your hips, but they will be tucked in and “sinking” (and depending on lineage “expanding your breath”) at the conclusion of your strike. So again, the hip area is used in this type of action, but it is not “twisted”.

Again, in arts such as certain lineages of Chow Gar (and probably styles such asPak Mei and Dragon), the hip is used yet in another much lesser known way.

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1121095]

Don’t you use this methodology in your school? If not, are you not interested for the sake of expanding your WC knowledge, to look into it?

[/QUOTE]

Nope and BTW I spent 8 years researching “other” WC systems so my knowledge and understanding is ok thank you please? ;):smiley:

The culmination of my path in Ving Tsun has been based on trial and error. Some systems just don’t cut it even though the heads of their systems claim to be Grandmatsers and Masters! :wink:

GH

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1121633]Nope and BTW I spent 8 years researching “other” WC systems so my knowledge and understanding is ok thank you please? ;):D[/QUOTE]

You have to keep in mind that there are WC systems out there that take 6 to 8 years to complete, and then there are the other kung fu styles…

Also, keep in mind that over 95% percent of Wing Chun or indeed any major kung fu style, you would have been exposed to would habe been (and are) incomplete (poor to mediocre). This is the Mcdojo phenomenon. So, it was not invented by me.

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121633]The culmination of my path in Ving Tsun has been based on trial and error. Some systems just don’t cut it even though the heads of their systems claim to be Grandmatsers and Masters! ;)[/QUOTE]

Being somewhat familiar with the Wing Chun world and the TCMA scene in general, I would say that your 8 years of trial and error are pretty insignificant in a world where there are Wing Chun lineages that take 6 to 8 years to complete.

IMHO, for people to grow in Wing Chun, or indeed in any kung fu style, they need to come down from their high horses and be more humble. I have already met a Chinese master who after 40 or so years of practice of kung fu practice said that he would have liked to continue with his kung fu studies in his next life, because there was so much to learn. I have net a karate master in his early 70s that said that he kept discovering new things about his practice even in his current training.

So, lets just get real. 8 years of Wing Chun experimentation in world full of Mckwoons can potentially leave gaps in one’s knowledge and the way you expressed yourself, you came across as a “know it all” person, as regards WC.

So, let me ask, and I am really curious. What is the source of your power when you are stepping in a straight line and punching your opponent. This is a case where you will not be turning your hips. Do you just use your body unity (behind the punch) with the step and the usual elbow alingments? Or is there more?

Does you lineage practice Iron Palm? Does your lineage of Wing Chun incorporate Chin-na to an advanced level? Does your lineage take the WC principles to the ground as part of its ORIGINAL curriculum (that is, they were not added since the popularity of the Gracies/BJJ/UFCs)?

Do have ANY Internal aspects to your training? How about breathing, do have different types for striking scenarios as regards the effect of the strikes? Or do you use a standard type of “breath out” when punching?

With regular 3 times a week training (plus “homework”) how long would it take an average person to complete the curriculum of your lineage?

I am asking all this because I am GENUINELY curious and a lot of that curiousity comes from seeing your own high regards for the lineage that you practice.

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You have to keep in mind that there are WC systems out there that take 6 to 8 years to complete, and then there are the other kung fu styles…

This goes completely against Ving Tsun theory!!! One never completes the system as we are always learning more efficient ways to apply the concepts. Skill develops from year to year in which we will have a better understanding of the system. We are our own enemy through being prone to making mistakes in the heat of a fight. It is these mistakes Ving Tsun serves to correct in my lineage.

Also, keep in mind that over 95% percent of Wing Chun or indeed any major kung fu style, you would have been exposed to would habe been (and are) incomplete (poor to mediocre). This is the Mcdojo phenomenon. So, it was not invented by me.

You may speculate if you want but in that statement you may be writing off many you respect.

Being somewhat familiar with the Wing Chun world and the TCMA scene in general, I would say that your 8 years of trial and error are pretty insignificant in a world where there are Wing Chun lineages that take 6 to 8 years to complete.

I have been involved in such lineages especially the Foshan versions of Wing Chun and I left as it was nonsense. As WSL would say “going around and around the bull’s horns and getting nowhere!” :D:D:D

IMHO, for people to grow in Wing Chun, or indeed in any kung fu style, they need to come down from their high horses and be more humble. I have already met a Chinese master who after 40 or so years of practice of kung fu practice said that he would have liked to continue with his kung fu studies in his next life, because there was so much to learn. I have net a karate master in his early 70s that said that he kept discovering new things about his practice even in his current training.

Define “Master”!!! Master is a title given by followers who (in some cases) blindy follow silly ideas. It’s all in the eye of the beholder you see? I have met “masters” in Wing Chun and they are good at shows and are held in high regard because of name and status! No great fighting abilty! There are no masters in my lineage! Just normal human being who just happen to be very skillful at Ving Tsun!

So, lets just get real. 8 years of Wing Chun experimentation in world full of Mckwoons can potentially leave gaps in one’s knowledge and the way you expressed yourself, you came across as a “know it all” person, as regards WC.

I know enough to function! I think you are the one in McDojo land!

So, let me ask, and I am really curious. What is the source of your power when you are stepping in a straight line and punching your opponent. This is a case where you will not be turning your hips. Do you just use your body unity (behind the punch) with the step and the usual elbow alingments? Or is there more?

Ving Tsun teaches you to use the whole body for the main weapon…the straight punch. I’m sorry but I can’t show by profusely tapping my keyboard!! :p:D:D

Does you lineage practice Iron Palm? Does your lineage of Wing Chun incorporate Chin-na to an advanced level? Does your lineage take the WC principles to the ground as part of its ORIGINAL curriculum (that is, they were not added since the popularity of the Gracies/BJJ/UFCs)?

You have your ideas and I have mine…no biggy!!

Do have ANY Internal aspects to your training? How about breathing, do have different types for striking scenarios as regards the effect of the strikes? Or do you use a standard type of “breath out” when punching?

I breathe to remian alive mate! :smiley:

With regular 3 times a week training (plus “homework”) how long would it take an average person to complete the curriculum of your lineage?

I train most days for 2-3 hours. What everybody else is doing is not my business. With the right person and the right amount of time good progress can be made.

I am asking all this because I am GENUINELY curious and a lot of that curiousity comes from seeing your own high regards for the lineage that you practice.

…as you do for yours!! :wink:

GH

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]This goes completely against Ving Tsun theory!!! One never completes the system as we are always learning more efficient ways to apply the concepts. Skill develops from year to year in which we will have a better understanding of the system. We are our own enemy through being prone to making mistakes in the heat of a fight. It is these mistakes Ving Tsun serves to correct in my lineage.[/QUOTE]

My reference to the time period needed to complete a style was as regards the set curriculum of techniques, applications, concepts, principles, etc. Not skill development.

I did imply that there is a lot more to learn?

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]You may speculate if you want but in that statement you may be writing off many you respect. [/QUOTE]

That statement is a FACT!

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]I have been involved in such lineages especially the Foshan versions of Wing Chun and I left as it was nonsense. As WSL would say “going around and around the bull’s horns and getting nowhere!” :D:D:D[/QUOTE]
First of all we cannot necessarily believe your opinion of them being “nonesense”. After all, how long did you train them? Were the sifus qualified? Did the stuff they were teaching go against your “scientific” belief system?
Qualified or not, did they just take you for a ride? Whatever the truth, you do realize that there are at least 7 other lineages of WC in Foshan alone.

There are also other manifestations of Wing Chun in countries such as Malaysia, Singapoor etc. You are not curious at all?

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]Define “Master”!!![/QUOTE]

A master is a person who has mastered a discipline to a high level. Read master carpenter, master sculpture, master paint…clear now?

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]Master is a title given by followers who (in some cases) blindy follow silly ideas.[/QUOTE]
Oh boy, you really have the idea of master all mixed up…LOL!

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]It’s all in the eye of the beholder you see? [/QUOTE]
I am not sure, but your attitude may be the reason that you did not find any kung fu of use in Foshan.

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]I have met “masters” in Wing Chun and they are good at shows and are held in high regard because of name and status! No great fighting abilty![/QUOTE]

Well, you just proved my 95% and above kung fu schools (including their “masters” being poor to mediocre)…:wink:

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643] There are no masters in my lineage! [/QUOTE]
Why am I not surprised? :smiley:

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]Just normal human being who just happen to be very skillful at Ving Tsun! [/QUOTE]
There are many normal people who are skilful in varying disciplines, but they do not qualify as MASTERS! I believe you have just confused this master concept.

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]I know enough to function! I think you are the one in McDojo land! [/QUOTE]

Then why are you here? You seem to know everything and not interested in other lineages that are different and even richer than yours. So you are not here to learn, are you another one who is here to “teach”?

For whatever it is worth, most people in this forum and their grandmothers believe they know enough.

I do not know much about your lineage, but I did watch a couple of PB videos. I noticed that you guys go back as a matter of habit and/or strategy. That already indicates a HUGE difference between what you practice and what I practice, not to mention the mindset of the Chow Gar that I have also practiced.

So again, you are not interested how other kung fu styles are more in your face and have different strategies? Do you practice Iron skills? Does your system have Chin-na and ground fighting? Internal training?

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]Ving Tsun teaches you to use the whole body for the main weapon…[/QUOTE]
Most, if not all kung fu styles do the same!

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643].the straight punch. I’m sorry but I can’t show by profusely tapping my keyboard!! :p:D:D[/QUOTE]
There were certain descriptions I was looking for but I guess you do your straight punch differently.

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]You have your ideas and I have mine…no biggy!![/QUOTE]

They are not my “ideas” they are part and parcel of the lineage that I practice. That is, Chin-na, Iron Skills, Chi kung, Ground Fighting, etc.

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]I breathe to remian alive mate! :D[/QUOTE]

No surprise there either. Not even the few sifus/masters who know the breathing methodologies, do not teach them openly…

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]I train most days for 2-3 hours. What everybody else is doing is not my business. With the right person and the right amount of time good progress can be made.[/QUOTE]
I asked you an honest and straight question, how long does it take to complete
the curriculum in your lineage (instructor level)?

[QUOTE=Graham H;1121643]…as you do for yours!! ;)[/QUOTE]

That is a good thing, but not only does my sifu discuss other lineages, he also discusses other styles of kung fu, some of which are superior to most WC out there.

It is all about putting aside pride and embrace knowledge from other manifestations of one’s chosen style of kung fu and indeed the other TCMAs.

GH[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1121834]My reference to the time period needed to complete a style was as regards the set curriculum of techniques, applications, concepts, principles, etc. Not skill development.

I did imply that there is a lot more to learn?

That statement is a FACT!

First of all we cannot necessarily believe your opinion of them being “nonesense”. After all, how long did you train them? Were the sifus qualified? Did the stuff they were teaching go against your “scientific” belief system?
Qualified or not, did they just take you for a ride? Whatever the truth, you do realize that there are at least 7 other lineages of WC in Foshan alone.

There are also other manifestations of Wing Chun in countries such as Malaysia, Singapoor etc. You are not curious at all?

A master is a person who has mastered a discipline to a high level. Read master carpenter, master sculpture, master paint…clear now?

Oh boy, you really have the idea of master all mixed up…LOL!

I am not sure, but your attitude may be the reason that you did not find any kung fu of use in Foshan.

Well, you just proved my 95% and above kung fu schools (including their “masters” being poor to mediocre)…:wink:

Why am I not surprised? :smiley:

There are many normal people who are skilful in varying disciplines, but they do not qualify as MASTERS! I believe you have just confused this master concept.

Then why are you here? You seem to know everything and not interested in other lineages that are different and even richer than yours. So you are not here to learn, are you another one who is here to “teach”?

For whatever it is worth, most people in this forum and their grandmothers believe they know enough.

I do not know much about your lineage, but I did watch a couple of PB videos. I noticed that you guys go back as a matter of habit and/or strategy. That already indicates a HUGE difference between what you practice and what I practice, not to mention the mindset of the Chow Gar that I have also practiced.

So again, you are not interested how other kung fu styles are more in your face and have different strategies? Do you practice Iron skills? Does your system have Chin-na and ground fighting? Internal training?

Most, if not all kung fu styles do the same!

There were certain descriptions I was looking for but I guess you do your straight punch differently.

They are not my “ideas” they are part and parcel of the lineage that I practice. That is, Chin-na, Iron Skills, Chi kung, Ground Fighting, etc.

No surprise there either. Not even the few sifus/masters who know the breathing methodologies, do not teach them openly…

I asked you an honest and straight question, how long does it take to complete
the curriculum in your lineage (instructor level)?

That is a good thing, but not only does my sifu discuss other lineages, he also discusses other styles of kung fu, some of which are superior to most WC out there.

It is all about putting aside pride and embrace knowledge from other manifestations of one’s chosen style of kung fu and indeed the other TCMAs.

GH[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I like being on a different page to you brother! End of conversation! You dig?

GH

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I stated off with TKD at the age of 7 for several years; In middle school a friend of mine started training in Aikijujutsu and then convinced me to join as well, so I ended up doing that for two years. I later trained Muay Thai under a gentlemen who recently immigrated from Thai land at a local gym. He was charging dirt cheap prices and taught a more formal version of Muay Thai with some very simple forms and applications that went along with the training, so I ended up training that for 1 year. I then started to train JKD with a group of guys in NJ/NYC which then lead me to to seek out Wing Chun(This was when I was about 16yo). I originally wanted to learn WC to enhance my JKD however I very quickly realized that WC itself is far superior a system by itself. Since then I’ve only trained WC. One of the things I would say I had trouble with when I first started was developing root and how to throw a proper “WC punch”, also there were alot of terms that were unfamiliar to me (even though there was some overlap from JKD, i.e. lap sao, tan sao, pak sao/parry…etc)

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1121952]
I like being on a different page to you brother! End of conversation! You dig?

GH[/QUOTE]

“You dig”? LOL!

You know, it is the attitudes like yours that result in most Wing Chuner’s not evolving their TCMA knowlegde because they are cocooned into lineages or schools thinking what they do is best.

As a fellow Wing Chun practitioner I will just suggest to you and the likes of you to think outside the box and evolve your knowlege because one thing I can guarantee you is that there is a lot more TCMA knowlege out there then you know about! :wink:

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1122800]

You know, it is the attitudes like yours that result in most Wing Chuner’s not evolving their TCMA knowlegde because they are cocooned into lineages or schools thinking what they do is best.

As a fellow Wing Chun practitioner I will just suggest to you and the likes of you to think outside the box and evolve your knowlege because one thing I can guarantee you is that there is a lot more TCMA knowlege out there then you know about! ;)[/QUOTE]

I don’t like your attitude either! :wink:

GH

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1122816]I don’t like your attitude either! :wink:

GH[/QUOTE]

You should, as I am only suggesting that you expand your horizons as regards the TCMAs, and that is something that I myself try to do always.

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1122822]You should, as I am only suggesting that you expand your horizons as regards the TCMAs, and that is something that I myself try to do always.[/QUOTE]

So why do I need to do that? Once you have driven a great motor car and you are happy with it why go and test drive any more?

So what are we talking about? Hung Gar? Done it! Tai Chi Chuan? Done it! Praying Mantis? Done it! Hop Gar? Done it! Lau gar? Done it! Ip Chun Wing Chun? Done it! Ip Ching Wing Chun? Done it! Sam Kwok Wing Chun? Done it! Leung Ting Wing Tsun? Yuk! Augustine Fong Wing Chun? Done it! Maybe some Japaneze stuff? Wado Ryu? Done it! Ninjitsu? Done it! Kenpo? Done it! Maybe I could go to a decent Boxing club…oh yeah done that as well!..you want me to carry on??? My horizons don’t need expanding my friend???

I’ll tell you one thing dude…if somebody can fight they can fight…it makes no difference what style they do. Fighters can make anything work! You don’t even need Martial Arts if you like to scrap and I have met some scary people and funnily enough they haven’t been to a martial art club in their lives!

Shame you don’t live close to me…you could come around and show me the light! LOL

GH

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I came from Karate first & had an issue with pulling back too much making gaps when doing splitting moves like a tan/gwat chop I would pull back too much opeing myself up for running hand etc…
That and fighting as close as they do in WC compared to long bridge systems but I think it helped me with closing the gap from a far so I don’t regret my karate training not that I would ever go back to it…

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1123316]So why do I need to do that? Once you have driven a great motor car and you are happy with it why go and test drive any more?

So what are we talking about? Hung Gar? Done it! Tai Chi Chuan? Done it! Praying Mantis? Done it! Hop Gar? Done it! Lau gar? Done it! Ip Chun Wing Chun? Done it! Ip Ching Wing Chun? Done it! Sam Kwok Wing Chun? Done it! Leung Ting Wing Tsun? Yuk! Augustine Fong Wing Chun? Done it! Maybe some Japaneze stuff? Wado Ryu? Done it! Ninjitsu? Done it! Kenpo? Done it! Maybe I could go to a decent Boxing club…oh yeah done that as well!..you want me to carry on??? My horizons don’t need expanding my friend???

I’ll tell you one thing dude…if somebody can fight they can fight…it makes no difference what style they do. Fighters can make anything work! You don’t even need Martial Arts if you like to scrap and I have met some scary people and funnily enough they haven’t been to a martial art club in their lives!

Shame you don’t live close to me…you could come around and show me the light! LOL

GH[/QUOTE]

When did you do Augustine Fong WC and with whom?

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[QUOTE=WC1277;1123521]When did you do Augustine Fong WC and with whom?[/QUOTE]

Does it matter? :confused:

GH

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1123529]Does it matter? :confused:

GH[/QUOTE]

Yeah because there’s plenty of bad practioners within any system…