[QUOTE=anerlich;1088459]Not all boxers do this. Some use vertical fists, some punch through the bottom three knuckles.
For what purpose? Most boxers would regard such discussion as mental masturbation.
There is also danger in making generalizations about boxing or other styles and setting them up as straw men in your own mind, analyzing everything to the nth degree … and dare I say, convincing yourself you are way smarter than all your workmates.
Well, duh, no one is suggesting that. There are drills and a progressive process. Even the boxers you seem keen to differentiate yourself from do not spend every session bashing the bejesus out of each other.[/QUOTE]
I somehow feel that we are getting off on the wrong foot.
I am generalizing nothing. While I am writing a lot of words on here, honestly to demonstrate in person it’s a rather simple matter as I’m sure you’d agree. A lot of stuff I do in person with those around me to show what I know of the system works, where many of them write it off because if it did work, people would be using it, people they imply (and I infer) in the UFC.
Regarding the analyzing of everything, wouldn’t you say you have to regarding the system’s postures in order to understand how to apply it?
I am aware that Jack Dempsey as an example, advocated punching with the bottom three knuckles, and wrote a book about his “power-line.” Not many boxers here at work follow this philosophy.
I do not differentiate from myself and boxers. Rather they, here, at my work space, differentiate from me, and I reciprocate likewise. Further, I am dealing with MMA guys or amateur boxer types that are built like supermen, many of them in my command are Navy Seal drop outs or Navy Diver hopefulls. What drew me to this system in the first place was curiosity at Bruce Lee’s reported power in his punching. As I stated once before, I took boxing for a few, as well as some MMA thai kickboxing. Hardly good at it but I gave it my all and they even said I had alright delivery.
Further, to take something basically alien like WC and apply it against other systems requires this “progressive” stuff to avoid getting hurt, and learning nothing.
Regarding the kick stomping thing, my point applies to other techniques as well not just that. Intent is everything in the system from what I gather. If you don’t follow through like in fencing where it’s obvious you got the other guy even with all the protective gear you end up trading blows. My teacher says you can’t expect to avoid getting hit, but the point is to drive through the center and if they do hit you there’s nothing there if they get through.
Have I convinced myself that I am smarter than my workmates?
Dunno, maybe.
I tried to show a buddy who “self-taught” himself Wing Chun some differences from actually learning from a teacher vs learning from movies and youtube videos. His arms were tense beyond belief. Didn’t really understand chi-sao so I had him simulate a boxer’s guard, whatever he wanted, and for the sake of the chi-sao thing told him to throw two punches and shot in and applied the whole forward pressure thing with the stance and footwork. For a brief moment he had no idea what I was doing, while I was focused on staying in and maintaining what I had going.
So he had his fists up, and my arms were I guess in a sort of outside/outside posture, and I told him to go for any punch to beat what I was doing.
I expected some sort of “driving through” motion, clearing the way of my hands and blasting through. He opted for a retracting, raising hand to go for a hook.
So my elbow shot through and I pulled it before it nailed him in the neck, and it happened in the span of time he was retracting for the hook to both clear my hands as well as perhaps to start it up.
In the spirit of it, that’s what my teacher I guess wants of us.
However I believe I messed up by actually “thinking” he was going to do some sort of “Wing Chun” thing to regain control and bypass my hands and blast through. I figured I’d “Jut” or whatever like in Dan Chi Sao. My “elbow” went forward, I believe it should’ve been my hand.
Either way the action stunned him and he stopped his hook, as I had actually nailed his neck but pulled it instead of driving through.
He snuck in some sort of one-inch punch on me earlier and his delivery was pretty fast for the hook as well he wasn’t pulling anything back.
While the above was a somewhat typical example of a “punch this way, and I’ll block it this way type of thing,” I gave him the freedom to do whatever punch he wanted, but within reason, as I said before, I do not know the whole system yet. My arms are loose enough but I’m still stiff most everywhere else. I get struck, “yet I move,” as another instructor of mine says.
Would I “learn” anything if I just let him do whatever, and I had to work to get in there and learn to “apply” the technique as I go?
The idea is to learn the whole thing, then adapt it to others as you spar. My sifu says you are trying to learn a skill. If the whole thing is “progressive,” you can learn to deal with the others, but first you must acquire whatever “skill” it is they’re trying to convey.
That makes sense.
How many people show up at the class and begin chain punching, and do it right?
Not many. They pop their elbows, focus in the fists instead of the elbows, their shoulders are “floaty,” and they don’t “sink.” Often they aren’t balanced and lean forward. They get exhausted fast.
Some people show up, conditioned, and do not get tired, but then again they’re not snapping their punches out either. It’s more of a controlled, slow speed, not fully extended (and therefore the intent isn’t there) exercise.
Ultimately its just an element of the whole “way” you punch with it.
So at this Kuwait Naval Base in the boathouse I pound a few dents into the aluminum wall, knuckles about a foot away, no retraction. 8 inches, no retraction. Working my way down to just the fingers length.
I’m using all the elements outlined in previous posts to do all that.
It is impossible without
-the focus or intent from snapping your hand out as if it were full extension, when you’re in that ideal close range.
-correct driving snapping, hip + elbow driven structure as outlined in my second post.
I try again with the punching, at maximum extension. What happens? I knock myself off balance. Even when I earnestly attempt to maintain it. The stance is not designed to do that. If you do, it requires muscle to prevent the shock away from the wall. Further, I leave no dents in the wall.
That signals loss of power at that range.
Is there anything wrong with testing out the elements of the system in isolation to understand the mechanics of it? Is it wrong, to have focused “labs” with a resisting human opponent to get the “hang” of it? Is there anything “wrong” with the whole “baby steps” idea, or “walk before you run” approach to Wing Chun? It seems you advocate just jumping in with both feet.
So here is the questions asked of me… someone who’s only done this a year, and asked for opinions on Robert Chu’s article, as well as for help or clarification on what I know.
-The question is how long do you train before you can spar?
I could only give observations and opinions.
Then a statement
-hand in hand learning and sparring are good to go, skill cannot emerge in a vacuum.
The system teaches you a “skill,” it does not emerge in a vacuum. This much I understand even within my limits. It is this skill, that you bring to the table to acquire another skill, to spar and to fight. “I” know this much, even if most of my body does not.
So those are questions asked of me, or statements/answers to stuff I’ve said or insinuated. Here are a few of my own…
-A question is how do you “force” yourself to relax under pressure?
-If you use wing chun at all, do you fight force with force? Or do you flow with it?
-If a technique does not work for you, it must not work at all correct? Have you ever stated such about any aspect of this system? Why?
-Are there any aspects of the system you believe do not work in application, period? If so why?
-The thread’s initial post was about Robert Chu’s Article. Have you read it? Do you have any comments?
A lot of people I talk to that “box,” cringe at the idea of attacking when the other guy does.
I enjoy a good argument, and while I am getting maybe we might not much like each other hopefully you enjoy this argument too. Let’s just agree to keep it civil please.
If I fail to, let me know.
T.Bowman
