There’s been so much talk on here lately by a select few that the Wing Chun system is in need of something more to fill in the gaps, or lack of ability to deal with certain situations in combat. Most know of my own personal feelings here, but I’m curious to hear what you all think what Wing Chun is about and how does it deal with combat. By this I mean how does a Wing Chun practitioner or someone with tools developed within them by training in the WC system deal with opponents, whether trained in another MA or not. For example, how does your WC deal with someone charging, shooting, tackling you. How does your WC deal with a boxer type attacker, light on their feet with fast hands and combinations. How does your WC deal with the various kicking arts and stylist out there? These are just a few examples, please feel free to expand upon it. Just curious as IMO there are some on here with very different perspectives on just what WC means as a combat art and what it is good for. Please feel free to explain to us all why you would feel crosstraining in another MA would supplement your effectiveness in combat. Also please try to be specific and provide reasons why you think this way, instead of just stating something as fact without backing it up.
As a matter of fact I have a tall boy of Coor’s light in my hand right now, lol…
Seriously, unkokusai, are you up to the challenge of explaining the way you feel about things Martial or is this to tough a job for you? What’s your perspective of WC and how WC relates, compares to other MA?
My biggest problem with wing chun seems to be the lack of a power rear cross. And the fact that, as far as I know there are only centerline punches, besides your throat attacks and eye jabs…it seems like a boxer has access to alot more combos to kind of open up a gap in an opponents defenses. My opinion means little though, I haven’t practiced wing chun terribly long.
I’ve got nothing against WC. I’ve kicked it around with WC guys often. Its fine. I think that a larger more aggresive opponent can squash alot of the technique and I have never encountered a WC guy who wasn’t basically helpless off his feet despite what people here may say. Maybe I’ve just never crossed hands with someone badass enough to represent the art. I have no problem recognizing the value of WC, but the bizarre certainty that it contains the answers to all of life’s questions is pretty disturbing. And some of your assumptions about boxers are incongruous with reality. That’s all.
Wing Chun for me, I feel works as an ideal stand up fighting system. I do not argue it’s superiority to other styles, but feel that it suits me personally. This is mainly because I prefer a practical, stand up fighting style. While I do believe ground fighting to be effective, I simply prefer a striking style that I feel works in a more practical fashion than many other flowery systems. I think it is very quick and to the point. I train because I love it, but also for self defense, if needed. Although, personally I would prefer fleeing a street confrontation if it cannot be resolved verbally, but do understand that in certain cases this may not be an option. My fighting mentality concerns survival over manly pride. I consider family over ego. Wing Chun, I do think is very effective in reality and does cover all bases of attack if learned properly and practiced regularly. Of course timing, speed, circumstance, and individual all play a part, but in my experience confrontations usualy take place point-blank, and not from a distance. Agressors tend to get right on you or in your face. Wing Chun thrives on dealing with these situations. So it basically comes down to what you prefer and what truly works for you. I compare Wing Chun to the two styles of Karate I took and my friend’s styles, TKD, JJ and Judo. These are the styles I have seen in action, and still prefer Wing Chun. I don’t think the others are bad, but feel that a stand up style based more on speed, trapping and striking suits me. As far as MMA events go, if you are actually training for these, I would not recommend soley Wing Chun, or any other style for that matter. I have seen plenty of UFC matches and it seems clear that every WINNING fighter usually posesses skills in some striking art and some ground fighting art. I feel that with Wing Chun, if that is your chosen martial style, one must focus on it and get good at it. Try and focus on what you love and you do best/feel most comfortable with. Don’t worry about randomly trying to fight like your opponent, because you will clearly lose at the attempt of playing their game. You must focus on what you know and how you would effectively deal with any oncoming attack. Wing Chun most likely covers it. You just have to train for it. Okay, that probably got off track of your original question, but in short, I feel that Wing Chun offers me a more practical, quick solution to attacks of all kinds through it’s principles, techniques, simplicity, ect… It all comes down to what you prefer, enjoy, and what you are training for.
I’ve been training in Wing Chun on and off for about 5 years with a little boxing and ju jitsu trained separately. I enjoy the chi sao aspects of WC but I am concerned that we train almost exclusively from a bridge . I feel that we dont spend enough time practicing how to deal with our opponents approach or our own approach to an opponent. When training in boxing one of the first things trained was how to move in and out of range effectively. This may be just a problem of where I train. But for me when recently threated with violence I felt more comfortable being in a boxing style stance up on my toes and as mobile as possible. Fortunately this confrontation didnt escalate into contact. If we had made contact I am sure I would have attempted to use WC techniques.
My main point is that though I love WC I dont feel I can make it work for me all of the time especially against a bigger more agressive opponent.
I do not write many post here anymore because ive been training AND it seems to be a waste of time writting about WC and all its possitive aspects when you got alot of people out there that thrive on arguing the opposite. Although there is nothing is wrong with questioning points about the system, MANY MANY people out there just dont understand WC as a whole.
WC is a complete system because it is comprised of principles that can be used in any situation. These principles are represented by examples which are techniques and the forms. These techniques and forms are GUIDELINES to point you in the right direction to help with the understandings of the bio mechanics and scientific principles within the system.
In my opinion learning the forms and drills within the system just isnt enough to grasp a true understanding of what WC is. Futhermore, after grasping this understanding it is very difficult to show what you understand if you do not train like a real kung fu fighter. That is to train your body, mind, and spirit over a long period of time so your movements become kung fu and are guided with your spirit.
One of the core principles of WC other than simple, direct, and efficent is SPEED.
WC cannot be used properly without speed. The moves just wont work. The quickest person has an extreme advantage over a slower opponent.
You move as one unit without thought, with precision, power and speed. This is kung fu and this is what is required in order to truly represent WC the way it was intended.
Not many can do this which is why there isnt many truly representing WC. It takes a deep commitment that many dont realize and if they do realize are not able to commit to.
Thats my 2 cents. Take it for what its worth. Train hard.
First WC has hooks and uppercuts within the system. It is not, nor should it be limited to the all mighty chaing punch. One of the things which I think make WC strikes so effective is their ability to adjust to the opponents reaction and mold themselves to penetrate when they encounter a block. Of course, other arts can do the same as well.
I disagree with James that SPEED is the one of the most important aspect of WC. While SPEED is certainly important and I will agree that it is one of the core attributes that one should develope, I think that relying on SPEED to overcome better structure, strength or timing is a mistake. SPEED is but one piece of the puzzle, not the answer to every situation. Remember one of of the WC kuen kuit involves not being greedy. If I had to give my opinion on the most important aspect I would say it is timing and structure. SPEED and Strength can and will fade as one gets older, however one can utilize proper structure into old age. Look at Yip Chun and tell me that he relies on SPEED.
I will almost always seek a bridge. To me that is one of the things which makes WC so effective. Once I have established a bridge I have tapped into my opponent and have an idea of what they are about to do. You can feel thier movements and react to them from a bridge even it is established by standing on their foot. To me this represents Chi Sau skill far more than simply sticky arms. I want to make contact with my opponent and then use thier energy to tell me how to defeat them.
WC is about efficiency and stripping away the unneccessary. Big movements take too long and since I am lazy I like to do what I can with as little as I can. Most movements can be performed in a very small or slight movement. This can often give more illusion to SPEED but, the movement is not always faster it may just be shorter.
WC should continue to evolve and grow, IMHO. But, we should never try to fight anothers game. IMHO it is a mistake to try to out-box a boxer or out wrestle a wrestler/grappler. The key to incorporating or exploring, adding other arts to your WC arsenal should not be on trying to re-invent the wheel. Rather my opinion is that you examine the concepts and energy used in the other art and then see if and how this can fit within the WC framework. When I do Pekiti Tirsia my sticks and knife have a distinct WC flavor to them. I am still doing WC I am just doing it from that aspect or perspective. I will utilize things which I find are effective, and one of them will be the SPEED from Sinawali, but it is still at the core, WC.
WC as a conceptual system can be argued to have all the answers one needs. However, in thinking that the system has everyone one has put blinders on and may not be able to see what others have to offer. WC is a living breathing thing and will change based on the individual practicing and the environment in which it is used. It is not the techniques which will answer each and every situation but the understanding of the energy behind the techniques and the realization that sometimes you need to step outside of the system and break the rules to have the proper answer to a situation.
IMHO the system is not what is lacking today but those of us who practice the system are lacking in our deeper explorations into the art. There is nothing wrong with bringing in other arts, if that is your desire. There is something wrong, IMHO, with trying to make WC a boxing or grappling art rather than trying to enhance your WC with an understanding of the concepts those arts can offer. Bottom line is that we do WC so we should keep doing WC and build on that framework.
Just my perspective on a few things. I use the illustration of the alphabet to my students. While we all have the same 26 letters, some people can right great poetry or novels. Why is this when we all have the same 26 letters? Why can’t all of use write great works? It is not the alphabet which gives this skill, but ones understanding of how to utilize the letters in sentences and paragraphs. Another interesting thing to consider is that many of the best writers often ignore the rules of grammer, maybe there is something to be learned here as well…
Give a simple pencil to someone that’s creative and skillful and he can produce works of beauty. Give the same pencil to a layman and he can only scribble with it.
The same holds true for wing chun… It’s a great style — but unfortunately not many can even use 20% of its potential.
What do they do? Just like a poor tradsmen, they blame the tool and start to add bits and peices to what was once a great tool.
Ultimately, why try to convince others of its worth? After all, the true effectiveness of any fighting method is proven on the street – and not in a ring or controlled fighting environment as many dream on this forum
Sihing73 wrote: “Just my perspective on a few things. I use the illustration of the alphabet to my students. While we all have the same 26 letters, some people can right great poetry or novels. Why is this when we all have the same 26 letters? Why can’t all of use write great works? It is not the alphabet which gives this skill, but ones understanding of how to utilize the letters in sentences and paragraphs. Another interesting thing to consider is that many of the best writers often ignore the rules of grammer, maybe there is something to be learned here as well…”
chisauking wrote “Give a simple pencil to someone that’s creative and skillful and he can produce works of beauty. Give the same pencil to a layman and he can only scribble with it.”
One still needs to understand or have the basics or writing to utilize a pencil. For example, what if I went into the Amazon and gave a pencil to a tribesman. No matter how creative he is, he still has to have an understanding of the alphabet and sentence structure in order to write anything, let alone something great. But I think we agree that it is the individual and not the instrument which is the determining factor.
I agree that WC is a great style, I would not be doing it if I thought otherwise. I also agree that many of us today, myself included, do not practice or delve deeply in the the art and so often miss some of the gold underneath.
I also agree that WC is a combat art and it shines on the street. During a recent exchange with one of my students I grabbed his hair and yanked his head back. This put him in a very poor position and seemed, to me at least, to be effective. Yet, I somehow doubt this would be permitted in a MMA event. Does this make it any less effective and valid…
Sorry Dave, I’m going going to have to disagree with you as strongly as I can while still trying to be respectful.
I am of the opinion that pulling someone’s hair, especially in the MoKwoon with your training partners, is not at all a Ving Tsun method of self-discovery within the context of KungFu. Something like that is just all you.
How much skill does it take to pull someone’s hair? What attribute do you think you were working on with this?
Could it work? Of course. But if you want to go this route, why not do it right and, instead, sneak up on him in the changing room and strangle him with a garrote? (You choked him out, right? So, what’s the big deal?)
Learning the ancient “caveman takes a mate” technique of hair pulling is something nearly everyone has already learned as a toddler. Shouldn’t we have more interesting things to train?
I can appreciate your response and I will reply as follows:
Grabbing someones hair and pulling it is NOT a WC technique per se. However, it can be argued that it follows the concepts of efficiency in that it requires very little skill and effort to pull it off. It also is an example of taking advantage of an opportunity which presented itself at the moment. Bottom line is that I have always stated up front that I cheat and I will do whatever it takes to win.
FWIW I do not teach to grab someones hair as a training method. The example is more to illustrate the need to be flexible and adaptable to each and every situation. I train to fight based on the opportunities presented to me and I stress the importance of recognizing such opportunities even when they are not apparent techniques.
If I were to have the choice I would rather sit out about 300-900 yards and just shoot you with a high powered rifle rather than see if I could beat you in hand to hand combat. I mean if I am going to try to hurt or kill you anyhow why not do it from a margin of safety .
WC teaches a very effective method of combat but you still need to take off the blinders and keep an open mind to things which may not fit into the rules and framework of the system. Grabbing someones hair can do this. Let me ask this, if you are in a poor position and someone is grappling you and about to choke you out and you find you can bite into their arm very deeply, would you use that to survive? The age of AIDS notwithstanding if it is do some stupid durty “caveman” trick or get choked out then I am all “caveman”
It is not the specific technique which is important in this case but the willingness to do whatever it takes to win, even if it breaks some rules along the way.
But you didn’t do it in a fight, you did it in class.
Does a 100 meter hurdler just move to the side of the lane and not jump the hurdles? Does he have the someone throw rocks at his teammates while they sprint? They could, but what would be the point?
Cheating during learning teaches nothing except how to hone your skills of becoming an @sshole. Not only is the class the wrong time and place, but exactly how many people need a lot of practice how to do this, anyway?
@ssholes in class end up alone with no one to train with. Someone learning to be a bigger @sshole will become much a better practitioner, student, and teacher, and with a much better group of people around if they dispense with this nonsense.
[BTW, the goal “on the street” as you put it, should not be to win; it should be to survive. Frankly, only a small amount, if any, of what is taught in at any given MoKwoon has a directly relation to survival. But, that’s how it should be; the reason why is because survival is the most limited focus of all the reasons for studying a Martial Art.]
I think you are missing the point here; the specific technique is not the focus it is the mindset which is the focus. You have to be willing to do whatever it takes to win and you need to accept that this will sometimes require you to do things which are not considered fair.
Whatever you may think, I am not in the habit of abusing my students and they sometimes hit me. More power to them. I do not cheat to fuel my ego nor do I tell them I am the best. I do try to prepare them for the reality of combat which is that no one fights fair and you need to approach fighting from that perspective. If you limit yourself to following the rules then you will lose in a real fight.
When I teach to fight with the knife, for example, the first thing I tell my students is to expect to be cut. Accept this as a foregone conclusion and be prepared to fight on no matter what. Also, if you are unwilling to cut, maim or kill your opponent you have no business picking up a kinfe to begin with. Now, this does not mean that you have to kill someone, but you need to be able to accept that fact that you may need to take it to that level. And you need to be able, mentally and physically to do just that if the need arises.
Tom,
I can respect your posts and your viewpoint. However, please do not deem it necessary to preach to me about the street or the goals of combat there. I can assure you that I have been involved in several encounters, some as a result of my previous job, some as a result of being in an inter-racial marriage, and some perhaps because I am an “a**hole” at times . I have both won and not won but I have always survived. However, I wish to survive with as minimal injury as possible and if that requires me to cheat then I will do so without second thought. I can assure you that if I did not have some first hand experience pointing to the effectiveness of how I teach I would not pass this on to my students. As a matter of fact I have taught defensive tactics in a prison where I think the CO’s may have a more pressing need for reality in combat. But, who knows maybe I and those I have taught have only been lucky and not skilled :rolleyes: .
I think we will be forced to dissagree on some things and that is okay with me. It will not diminish any of your views in my mind. Hope the same can be said with regards to me.
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