Alot of focus is put on the person training in wing chun more than what style of wing chun I am sure this will offend many of you but check it out for yourself. Sifu Chung Kwok Chows system I find is most realistic for street self defence. I base this on my 20 years of training several different Wing Chun styles. Also the system he teaches could make a man with no natural skills a good fighter very simple and straight to the point. This is due to the evolution of Sifu Chung Kwok’s system to deal with todays fighters Traditional with a modern twist which works in ring due to ground skills and in the street due to nononsence training. I have personally not had the chance to study that system but my research shows that system will help you more than the rest when it comes to fighting.
HI Tom,
Perhaps I am again missing something but following the logic you give above, if you don’t do something in a fight it does not have value. In that case why train in a kwoon at all? Would’nt we be better off going to the streets and engaging in fights to hone our skills 
. In other words, if you did not do it in a fight then you really can’t say it works 
I don’t think I’ve missed your point. So, let me try this another way:
Think back to all the times you been completely owned by someone during your training, but they were nice enough not to pull your hair, poke an eyeball, dislocate your shoulder, tear your chest hair out, spit at your face, slice your throat, etc.
Do you really think this group of people would not able to bring themselves to “cheat … without a second thought” with the specifics mentioned above? Is there any doubt in your mind they would not “be able, mentally and physically to do just that if the need arises”, as you put it?
I’m going to stick my neck out and say the chances are very good just about everyone anyone has ever met at that skill level didn’t get up to this height of wisdom of their art by training in the fashion you describe you emphasize in your class.
So, why do you believe you need to specifically train with such an emphasis for people to work on these ancillary things, instead? What makes the people you teach any different than people they’ve taught? What makes where you live any different than where they’ve lived?
Tom,
You are making an assumption that my classes are a collection of illegal and non-wc related techniques. If your assumption were correct then I would agree with you in that I am not benefiting my students nor teaching Wing Chun. Again, the emphasis is the willingness to do whatever it takes to walk away. However I teach WC techniques as the core of our approach to combat.
As to your belief that people will cheat when they need to naturally I would disagree with you 100%. People have a tendency to want to fight according to rules and values which they hold important. Few people are able to or willing to fight dirty without reserve. Unless they train for that mindset. There will always be some hesitation when they apply a dirty technique even if it is subconcious. This hesitation will and can result in injury. Why do you think that womens self defense classes put students at stress and force them to apply techniques against a resisting opponent. Often the student has to learn not to hold back as most are unwilling to injur someone else even when being attacked.
Sorry Tom, but we have differing views and most likely will not agree. I am confident in my approach as I am sure you are in yours. I hope that each of us passes on what we can to our students and that they are able to benefit from our teaching irregardless. Oh, btw, I encourage my students to check out other teachers and see if I am full of crap. I encourage them to question me and my methods and not to take my word for anything. I also encourage them to make the art of WC their own and not become my clones.
Okay, what do you believe is lacking in their training from those who don’t pull each others hair in class that would cause them to still hesitate after they’ve become accomplished? (Yes, “accomplished” is subjective, but I think you understand what I’m getting at.)
Even high level Brazilian Ju Jitsu practitioners don’t typically train with knives. Their entire training system paradoxically removes nearly all techniques considered “dirty” from their training paradigm and progression. (Source: Mastering Jujitsu, by Renzo Gracie, 2003)
Okay, now hand a Brazilian Ju Jitsu Brown Belt a knife. Do you think he or she will hesitate? What’s missing from their training that 6 days of knife work, if even that much, wouldn’t fix when we specifically discuss this type of hesitation?
[NOTE: I picked the Brazilian Ju Jitsu Brown Belt for this example because its art still appears to have a decent uniformity of skill standard. Most people (arguably) will see this when/if they encounter it - no other reason.]
Quote by chisauking
"Give a simple pencil to someone that’s creative and skillful and he can produce works of beauty. Give the same pencil to a layman and he can only scribble with it.
The same holds true for wing chun… It’s a great style — but unfortunately not many can even use 20% of its potential.
What do they do? Just like a poor tradsmen, they blame the tool and start to add bits and peices to what was once a great tool.
Ultimately, why try to convince others of its worth? After all, the true effectiveness of any fighting method is proven on the street – and not in a ring or controlled fighting environment as many dream on this forum"
I like this example, some do not have the understand to use the pencil in the same manner as others, therefore what is written on the page varies in quality between different people. Skill with your tools folks, that’s what it comes down to.
I’ve been reading through the post up to thus far. Very good comments and they are appreciated. Concerning the comments concerning strike variety(negativecr33p), think of it this way, every deflection you do is a strike. When I perform Bon sao for e.g. I am also performing a forearm smash and elbow strike. When I bring Bon Sao to Tan sao, that motion is a elbow strike, side palm strike. Biu Sao is can be interpreted as a side palm chop. There are many ways of looking at things in the WC system. Chain punching is a the basic follow-up weapon, because it allow a continuous flow of attacks based on the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Initial counters can be done with many tools.
For footwork and a lack of it, this is something I have notice throughout my years in WC, mostly concerned with lineages outside of my own. In the WC I practice footwork and mobility is active, and regardless of what the opposing fighter is doing in terms of movement, we can keep up with them and we do not teach to stand in a static neutral stance. Movement is key in all aspects of the WC I teach, but I know this is not the case for other versions of WC. Basically, IMO, if you are dealing with your opponents two primary weapons (arms/hands) while defending or attacking you lack footwork. There have been many clips posted on here from lineages ranging from Gary Lam to Augustine Fong, both still showed me a lack of footwork(not to say these Master’s lack skill or effectiveness, just different skills IMO) as they stood square on with the opponents weapons while in the exchange phase of combat. IMO this is not an effective strategy, but to each their own.
In the end, like others have said before me, understanding has allot to do with how you will interpret what you have learned from your WC training. Some believe that it all comes down to the individual, I say Yes & No. What you learn and what it teaches you is the FOUNDATION. If what you are learning is weak and inefficient & ineffective, then it is harder in the end to apply. If the structure is strong, and the movement is efficient and effective for a reality situation, then your chances are better. Remember, all practitioners from all the Martial Arts systems and styles still have to make it work for them, regardless of what others have already done within there respective arts (Bruce Lee, Royce, Rickson Gracie, are prime examples).
Keep the good posts coming…
James
I guess this point is just a matter of opinion with regards to training. FWIW I’ve seen a well known sifu use hair pulling to incapacitate someone effectively and looked much like technique I’ve used in my class except we haven’t used the hair pulling.
All I know is if I’m in a “real” altercation I’m really not going to give a $hit about whether or not my “wc skills” are evident. How much skill does it take to kick someone in the nuts?
If I walk away alive then who cares?
EXACTLY!! THAT’S REALITY!!! :eek:
When do you even approach not walking away from training alive?
If a person is pulling hair to control a training partner, I guarantee the hair puller is less skilled than someone who can control a training partner without doing so.
If you really believe a correct attitude is to say “Who cares?” to that observation, why train at all?
Why train for months/years to hit like a hammer when the simple reality is you can just carry one and hit with a hammer after two or three practice swings?
[Sheesh, I can hear it now: “What if the other guy has a hammer too?” “What if I lost my hammer?” “What if I walk into a blind alley at night with cash falling out of my pockets and I’m jumped by 27 ninjas wielding Uzi sub-machine guns?” :rolleyes:]
SPARK may be referring to a street encounter. I hope so anyway.
What’s at the root of this obession
Hi Tom,
What’s eating you? You really seem stuck on the whole idea of hair pulling. I thought I already made it clear that it is the attitude not the pulling of hair that is important here. Do you have bad memories of someone pulling your hair when you were younger and you just can’t get past that image? 
Look, you seem to disdain the idea of pulling someones hair, it is beneath you and people who resort to using such a method must be unskilled morons. Talk about shortsighted.
I think Tom’s point is one that I have voiced many times.
We talk about MA, sport vs street, etc, and inevitably, the conversation winds up turning around “well the rules in ‘x’ don’t allow for…”
Well, the truth is, we all train with rules. Even the places that train for the street train with rules. If we didn’t, we’d have a dearth of training partners. I COULD execute a takedown into a wall, or ram their heads into a pillar, or break fingers (which, incidentally, is much harder to do than people like to think), etc. But we don’t because it is actually detrimental to our training.
The ultimate point being that everything we do is a simulation, regardless of what you are training for.
The corrollary point to that is something Thomas Barnett calls “The absurdly conditional scenario,” where you put in so many what if’s, that the conclusion you advocate is inevitable. What I mean is:
Sheesh, I can hear it now: “What if the other guy has a hammer too?” “What if I lost my hammer?” “What if I walk into a blind alley at night with cash falling out of my pockets and I’m jumped by 27 ninjas wielding Uzi sub-machine guns?”
I can imagine any number of scenarios where I’m ****ed, and there’s really nothing I could do about it. So you train, keeping the best balance between safety and realism that you can, and you get as good as you can and that’s really it.
None of this is to say that hair-pulling and such doesn’t have it’s place, but more that I think we really ought to be aware that we really are all running simulations, with, depending on the art, different solution sets to the same general problems. So how good can you get at something like hair pulling? That’s sort of the question. That’s kind of an auxilliary thing to be added to a solid foundation…
Nicely said. True that!! 
The only thing that i will add to this discussion is that even the UFC fighters although they are excellent fighters are the rear chosen few exceptions. Most other arts that i have seen most people can’t actually apply their art to real life situations.
What I like about WC is the art was developed not fro the exceptional person but for the average person or the under dog. Now of course there are also exceptiional WC practicioners too. But over all I think the average WC person can learn to truly and honestly defend themselves.
That doesn’t mean that all WC persons can beat any art out there but again how many arts can women apply and effectivly efend themselves against bigger and stronger men. Just my opinion.
again how many arts can women apply and effectivly efend themselves against bigger and stronger men.
Well, lets see. Judo comes immediately to mind, as does wrestling.
BJJ is a good choice - my wife routinely *****es new men bigger and stronger than her. (After a few months, this goes away - curse of being female).
Muay Thai, with its arsenal of knees, elbows and kicks, plus effective infighting skills, give women excellent weapons.
Bigger and stronger men aren’t going to sit back and “box” with a woman, generally. They are going to close the gap and overwhelm them with superior size and power. Any art will, of course, help, but arts with a particular emphasis on close-in fighting seem particularly apropos.
What I like about WC is the art was developed not fro the exceptional person but for the average person or the under dog.
This is basically a “special and unique” claim that is simply untrue. EVERY art is built around minimum effort, maximum efficiency (which, for the record, is a judo maxim). But, ultimately, the delivery package for the art (ie, you, your mind and body) is going to have a say in how adequately you perform it.
I respectfully have to disagree with your statement Merryprankster, “This is basically a “special and unique” claim that is simply untrue. EVERY art is built around minimum effort, maximum efficiency (which, for the record, is a judo maxim). But, ultimately, the delivery package for the art (i.e., you, your mind and body) is going to have a say in how adequately you perform it.”
Compare Aikido to Judo and you have a prime example, one art requires less strength and speed than the other, Aikido. Some arts may claim this but it is not always true. Traditional Kung-Fu for example, Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Praying Mantis, all require skill to make them work, but all require high conditioning also. Boxing too.. IMO WC requires less of the physical attributes (strength, speed, toughness, flexibility, endurance, etc..) than the other arts. Yes, we do need elements of these attributes but not to the same level as them. Why is this? Because WC IMO is based on skill attributes (timing, coordination, structure, distance control, perception ability, technique, forward intention, etc..) things that any normal/average person can learn quickly and maintain when not using the art frequently. Now does this mean that one can come into the kwoon and study the art intellectually to become effective in its use? No. You have to go through all the sweat to teach your body how to use it, then and only then when the skills are within your conscious, unconscious, neuromuscular system will you have it.
James
As a standup fighting system goes, WC can be as good as any in the hands of a well-trained, skilled practitioner with the right mental and tactical approach for the given arena of combat or competition.
Like most fighting systems, WC has its areas of excellent applicability and those where its approach is less stellar.
Trying to determine its deficiencies in a pragmatic manner will strengthen rather than weaken the art. Trying to paint those who do so as foolish, heretical or poorly taught says more about the inquistor’s fears and misunderstandings than it does about the subject of the criticism. This is a system of fighting, not a religion. Systems and sciences demand constant reevaluation in accordance with changing circumstances and new information, only pseudosciences and dogma do not.
It is also intellectually dishonest to try to raise WC by comparing it with skewed or ignorant impressions of other arts, e.g. boxing being an art in which people jump about furiously on their toes and punch inefficiently, or a smorgasbord of other styles being based on physical conditioning rather than skill and other neurosomatic attributes.
The CDC has it that you are several thousand times more likely to die of lifestyle-related cardiovascular disease than from a violent crime. I WANT training that is going to improve my fitness levels, indeed, the incentive for having to be fit to do it I see as a plus, not a drawback. CLF, contrary to claims made above, is NOT a system reliant on physical conditioning. My first teacher has been studying it for about forty years, as well as WC, and he would know, much better than any forum member here.
His father, a former boxer and judoka, not particularly big, successfully fought off two would be muggers at age 82, chasing one into a public toilet, where the would be mugger locked himself in a cubicle and refused to come out until the cops came and called the old guy off. And those arts won’t work into old age, huh?
I agree Hung Gar requires development of specific strength and power. But not CLF, at least no more than WC does.
Some make great claims that WC has physical culture, qigong etc. within it. Most of what I’ve seen or heard about is watered down qigong. IMO you would be better served by taking up yoga or similar systems which are at least tailored for those specific results.
WC has groundfighting. At least TWC does. To claim what is taught in most schools gives you all the tools you need to escape a takedown, pin, submission hold, or G&P from an experienced wrestler or BJJ practitioner is to place oneself in denial.
I do several arts because I enjoy them. WC remains my primary art. I did my WC forms this morning, after some yoga. All you fundamentalists do them today?
Martial skill is the one of the least important aspects in surviving violent crime (see link in my .sig for sources). People who want to argue stridently with my views, or say I don’t understand WC can basically go **** themselves IMO, though I’ll probably argue with them because I’m an argumentative SOB who enjoys it. Sue me.
hair pulling
You guys :rolleyes: Get a buzzcut and take a pill. Problem disappears.
Skill with your tools folks, that’s what it comes down to.
Only so far. If you have a screw to join two items together, no amount of improving your skills with a hammer is going to help. Nor your skills with a pencil if you’re trying to spraypaint a car.
As Mr Natural says, “get the right tool for the job”. (Probably showing my age bigtime with that reference )
"Like most fighting systems, WC has its areas of excellent applicability and those where its approach is less stellar.
Trying to determine its deficiencies in a pragmatic manner will strengthen rather than weaken the art. Trying to paint those who do so as foolish, heretical or poorly taught says more about the inquistor’s fears and misunderstandings than it does about the subject of the criticism. This is a system of fighting, not a religion.
It is also intellectually dishonest to try to raise WC by comparing it with skewed or ignorant impressions of other arts, e.g. boxing being an art in which people jump about furiously on their toes, or a smorgasbord of other styles being based on physical conditioning rather than skill and other neurosomatic attributes." (Anerlich)
***EXACTLY. Couldn’t have said it better.
…
And as for the hair pulling debate: In a self defense situation, which should include some preparatory training while in the school…one should become acquainted to some extent with the dynamics of using a hair pull in this or that situation. So that it’s not completely alien to you if you ever need to resort to it in a real encounter. That’s all.
Nicely put, Anerlich!!! You covered alot there.
I think an important thing to remember is that WC is not about having every technique/concept/principal within the system. Does WC possess the same grappling repertoire as BJJ? Nope, but neither does BJJ when talking about standup or other such ranges. The point is, can WC deal with it? Yes. But I’m the first one to say I would not want to roll around on the ground with a BJJ black belt, but can he get me to the ground when the fight is on? Yes and No. Only when the situation is on will we all know for each one of us the answer to that question. The same scenario can be used with boxing. Would I box a boxer? Nope I wouldn’t, but can WC deal with it? Yes again.
To learn every technique known to every Martial Art would take a few lifetimes of practice. Not practical if you ask me. Even learning more then one or two MA takes a while, so why not learn something that can deal with it all, and give you tools to be able to do just that…
James