what will we do, brother joseph?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

now joseph,

i have a question for you and only you.

From day one, the fut san hung sing branch has always stated jeong yim was sent to the green grass monk. Just for conversations sake, i would like to hear your opinion on this. be open minded now.

Knowing that according to the fut san hsk, jeong yim went to the green grass monk. all these years the chan family disavowed the green grass monk. then in the early part of the new millenium, chan family members switch up and say that all of a sudden they find the green grass monk was really choy fook.

I will say that they have the last name, but is that proof enough to break the cai deZhong theory? i am not satisfied cai dezhong isn’t ggm, yet.

again, if the chan clan claims that choy fook is ggm, and we have always stated the ggm monk thing, then how does that work? if chan heung sent jeong yim to his own teacher to learn and complete his training, then how isn’t jeong yim and chan heung classmates?

why does the ggm exist in their camp now, and not previously? you don’t see how that could look a little shady? it seems that the chan clan is twisting it to their favor.

Jeong Yim’s teachers:

Chan Heung
Monk ching cho wo serng.

Chan heungs teachers:

Chan yuen wu
lee yau san
choy fook

choy fook = Green Grass Monk= Jeong Yim’s teacher=jeong yim and chan heung becoming classmates.

remember, the ggm has always been a part of our history, now its a part of theirs.

can you eplain for me?

2

From another thread:

  1. If Choy Fook was green grass monk then Chan Heung and Jeong Yim could not have been class mates. By the time Jeong Yim even met Chan Heung and started to learn kung fu, Choy Fook should have passed away if I’m not mistaken…

  2. If Choy fook was not green grass monk then green grass monk has likely nothing to do with CLF since CLF was established in 1836 by Chan Heung… Now when was Jeong Yim born and when did he meet Chan Heung?

3

shut your trap,

now you’r answering for joseph?

i said shut yuur mouth.

uh. dd..d.d.d.d.d.d.d.. i said shut your mouth little boy.

4

Hi Frank,

I know you don’t like kennyfist that much and he is like a little terrier that when he gets a bite he won’t let go, but I am afraid he’s kinda make sense in his “doggy” way!

Hey, Jeong Yim was a loyal and trusted indoor disciple of Chan Heung. He travelled with his sifu everywhere to spread CLF. He only went to Futsan after Chan Heung decided to retire and went back to King Mui Village.

The fact that he asked Jeong Yim to take over Futsan from Chan Dian-Dun who went blind, showed that he had great faith in Jeong Yim. Futsan, was like it now, a much bigger and more prosperous town than Sun Hui and Kong Moon, which were left to Chan Koon-Bak and Lung Ji-Choy. Chan Heung gave Jeong Yim the best territory, because he was the best.

The way you guys carried on, made him looked like he was a man full of himself, disloyal and untrustworthy. You know, in those days, once you became a disciple, you stay with your sifu for life, you don’t go and study with someone else and then have the hide to come back and share knowledge with him! You will be a laughing stock and you will lose respects amongst your peers.

The real truth is Jeong Yim was a great CLF player and he stayed with his teacher until the very end! He did not learn with anyone else except with Chan Heung and he gave his whole life to CLF. He was a great MA and had the respects of his peers and we should not belittle him just to satisfy our own ego and greed.

That is my take, Frank.

EJ

5

Oh, what will we do?

Give him back the respect Jeong Yim deserves, make him the greatest team player there is. He made CLF great, he was up there with the best, on par with Chan Koon-Bak and Lung Ji-Choy and we should not forget it.

He made Futsan Hung Sing one of the best place to study CLF and we should continue his legacy without bringing in all these dubious charactors like GGM and Cai De-Zhong. Jeong Yim don’t need them, he was a great CLF man in his own right and we should resppect that.

EJ

6

May I?

HSK,

I know you did not ask me to answer but I found part of your post very interesting and relevent to not only to history scenario but also to present situations.

I am refering to when you said that if Chan Heung sent Jeung Yim to learn from his (i.e. Chan Hueng) sifu, Choy Fook, shouldn’t they be classmates?

Well I am not sure how others or how the general martial arts community view this BUT this is how I feel:

Once your sifu always your sifu. Period. Choy Fook (or GGM) would be Jeung Yim’s SiGung. I think it is cool to be taught by your SiGung with your Sifu’s blessing without changing the already established relationship. I wouldn’t think Jeung Yim would want to stand on equal footing as the person that taught him so much to begin with. I think the initial relations sets the tone for it all. (BUT ultimately each situations depends on the particular circumstances).

Thanks for reading.

7

Brother Frank,

I forgot to answer this one. I rememebed the Chan Family website put up a picture of Chan Yiu-Chi’s manuscript a few years back, showing he said Choy Fook was GGM.

You have to remember, Chan Yiu-Chi wrote this long time before the GGM was ever mentioned by anyone (he died in the early 50s I think, when there was no contact between Hong Kong and the mainland). So he could not have made it up, that information was always in the family.

I remembered the story about the GGM only surfaced in the early 60s, when there was a struggle in Hong Kong between the elders of the different fractions of CLF, and we are still feeling that bad vibe 4 decades later and some of the old players like Chui Kwoong Yuan is still here with us…

Lets stop fighting, Frank. Tam Sam did not need any GGM to make himself look good, he just fought his way to glory. Let Jeong Yim shine on his own too, don’t lump all that sh.t on him just to try to make him look as good as his Sifu. He does not need it nor does he wanted it I am sure, he was good and one of the best we ever had, so let us do him justice!

EJ

8

Here is an awesome idea..lets all talk about a topic that is a total dead horse, and that is impossible to prove one way or another. On top of that, we should argue over this topic instead of spending the same energy in training and improving our skill, possibly alienating people of similar skill levels that we could have trained with to further our arts in a realistic environment.

****! Am I the only person that never ceases to be amazed at how much “kung fu” spend energy on everything except just getting really good and dropping their ego? Lineage war isnt going to make your footwork, power generation, or eyes any sharper or better.

Just my .02

9

“There is no reason in the world to fight (over lineage), but every reason to know how (the lineage came about).”

:smiley:

10

reading a couple o’ white boys talkin about ancient chinese lineages is like listening to david duke talk about the plight of black people in the USA before the civil war.

It’s my comment and you can say what you like about it, but you guys have been picking at that zit for a long time.

such anger!

where’s your f u.ckin kungfu for pete’s sake guys?

It’s one thing to have a lineage, that comes by your teacher, that’s all it is. It speaks not one single sound to what kungfu you have in your hands, if you guys after all this time don’t have what it atkes to deal with this as kungfu men, then why not drop it and let it be and never speak another word about it.

thank you.
/rant

11

4 Jane Hollander

From what Ive been told was that Jeong Yim was an outsider of Chan Village and he had to go and was sent to learn from GGM, it was kept a secret from the village, if they found out they would got angrier and thats why Chan Family was quiet about this legend, plain and simple. ( For Jane Hollander )

12

Is this Hsk and/or associates trying to build a mob mentality effect with different alias and using Jane Hallander?

I wonder…?

13

Jane Hallander is a great author of CLF, part of the story came from her, she is resting in peace and i respect her life work on CLF…

14

Yes, Jane Hallander was an author on CLF wasn’t she?..

Now that you brought up her name, don’t to typical HSK-effect and ignore relevant point…

WHERE DOES JANE HALLANDER MENTION THIS GGM LEGEND AND CHAN HEUNG’S GROUP KEPT QUIET ABOUT IT?..

DON’T TELL ME “BY WORD OF MOUTH” SHE SAID THIS AND THAT TO SO AND SO…

HINT: CLF BOOK REFUTING GGM LEGENT…AUTHORED BY DFW AND JANE HALLANDER !.

15

O ma God! There’s so much discrimination out there about our lineage and how it works, us yellow folks just don’t know how to tell you white folks that you have got us all wrong.

It’s really racious to say that the Chan clan ganged up against Jeong Yim, cos he was just a nice little boy down the next village and his old man was a good friend of the family. Us yellow folks are all peace loving people and we would never think of treating him bad and kicked him out of our homes, cos it is not in our nature.

He was like a son to Chan Heung cos that was how we always treated our sifu. We would never think of running away and learn from someone else and then come back to tell our sifu how to suck eggs! That’s not Chinese!

Do you get it, you white folks out there? We would never do such a thing cos our great sage Confucious always tells us to respect our sifu like our father.

So please don’t insult us, don’t make up these terrible terrible stories, you white folks out there, and make us yellow folks sounded like a bunch of cold hearted animals.

You get it? Us yellow folks are reasonable people and we have got a warm heart. You just go and discriminate against your black folks and leave us yellow folks alone!

You get it?

:smiley:

16

kenny fist

you keep talking ****, and i haven’t been on here in a few days. you better pray i never meet you you little sniffling, red=headed step child, no real thoughts of your own havin’ joseph jockin’ “Josephyou’re myhero” no body who is desparate to be heard, lil’ MF.

Joseph,

get a hold on your protege’.

Now i have been raised around chinese all my life, why are you trying to pull the wool over these peoples eyes and act like chinese don’t treat non-chinese, or outsiders badly? that’s a lot of crap! chinese folks can be the rudest people i have ever met. there are some exceptions, but stop painting the picture of this, it is not true.

Now, joseph, explain something to me. If the chan family branch was open to teach everyone, then why does the chan family have secret records that only the chan clan get to see? why is it that the chan clan only teach these secrets to other chan family members? No one outside the chan family has access to these documents.

so, if the chan family possess documents that only chan clan members can see, then why is it so impossible that the chan heung refused to teach their gung fu to jeong yim? he was an outsider!?

and once again, you say the chan family records are written by chan yiu chi. you have two genertions before him the father and the grandfather (chan Hueng). How many years had since the creation of clf, and the writing of this chan family manuel? How possible is it that the chan family lost some records, information and such over time? why should we believe chan yiu chi’s account of the history?

Now, you said it yourself brother joseph, Jeong Yim was one of the most famous students to come from Chan heung, right? And the fut san hsk has always said that jeong yim was the man in clf during that time. you even said it yourself. he was a shining star in the sea of clf.

Now, when we all say the same thing about the same person, it makes me wonder. On choyleefut.com.cn the chan family doesn’t mention jeong yim on that page with chan heung’s picture on front. It doesn’t mention him in that history one bit.

But it does mention loong Gee Choy, as one of the most outstanding students. But we are saying, and that includes you too joseph, that jeong yim was one of the most outstanding students of chan heung.

According to our branch, jeong yim was the only outsider (meaning he was the first) when he was a 12 yr old boy in chan heungs camp. he became one of the greates students to come from chan heung. this is according to our story.

according to the chan, loong gee choy is the first outsider. and he was their most outstanding student of chan heung.

now, if the both of them claim to be the only outsider in chan heungs camp, and both sides name these two as “the” most outstanding student of chan heung. it is kind of hard not to think that they are not one and the same.

speak to me, brother.

17

joseph,

so what are you saying about the chan family, and the jeong yim family and the green grass monk.

are you saying that the chan family may be wrong with choy fook being ggm?

18

david jamieson,

pls don’t refer to me as a “white boy” i kinda find that racist. and with that term for a caucasian, it says to me “a person whom only sticks with white folks, are clueless to other cultures, and believe that white people are superior.”

i am not like that in any manner, and actually place the term white boy along side of the “N” word. if you are going to refer to my ethnic background, pls do so without the term “white boy in it”.

i would greatly apprectiate that.

thanks.

19

Joseph,

get a hold on your protege’.

Kennyfist is not my protege, he is his own man and you have to deal with him yourself, what he says has nothing to do with me.

Now i have been raised around chinese all my life, why are you trying to pull the wool over these peoples eyes and act like chinese don’t treat non-chinese, or outsiders badly? that’s a lot of crap! chinese folks can be the rudest people i have ever met. there are some exceptions, but stop painting the picture of this, it is not true.

Frank, you need to have more of a sense of humour…

Now, joseph, explain something to me. If the chan family branch was open to teach everyone, then why does the chan family have secret records that only the chan clan get to see? why is it that the chan clan only teach these secrets to other chan family members? No one outside the chan family has access to these documents.

The Chan family documents are the properties of the Chan family, no ones gets to see them, not even other members of the Chan clan, unless they are invited. They are not secrets as such, they are just records of their knowledge and experience passed down for the benefits of the future generation.

so, if the chan family possess documents that only chan clan members can see, then why is it so impossible that the chan heung refused to teach their gung fu to jeong yim? he was an outsider!?

Family records and teaching are two different things, it is like you own a building is not the same as not allowing others to use your building. Get it? Chan Heung never refused to teach Jeong Yim, whose father was a friend of the family and they lived just down the road. They are neighbours or “tung heung” - people from the same county. So this myth about Chan Heung refused to teach Jeong Yim is just that, a myth.

and once again, you say the chan family records are written by chan yiu chi. you have two genertions before him the father and the grandfather (chan Hueng). How many years had since the creation of clf, and the writing of this chan family manuel? How possible is it that the chan family lost some records, information and such over time? why should we believe chan yiu chi’s account of the history?

Chan Yiu-Chi is human just like the rest of us, so he could have written things down in a biased way, but what I was trying to say was that when he wrote about Chan Heung being GGM, he had no idea there will be a controversy on the title years down the track, so he could not have made it up just to upset your apple cart.

Now, you said it yourself brother joseph, Jeong Yim was one of the most famous students to come from Chan heung, right? And the fut san hsk has always said that jeong yim was the man in clf during that time. you even said it yourself. he was a shining star in the sea of clf.

Now, when we all say the same thing about the same person, it makes me wonder. On choyleefut.com.cn the chan family doesn’t mention jeong yim on that page with chan heung’s picture on front. It doesn’t mention him in that history one bit.

But it does mention loong Gee Choy, as one of the most outstanding students. But we are saying, and that includes you too joseph, that jeong yim was one of the most outstanding students of chan heung.

That is not true, Jeong Yim was mentioned in the front page right below Chan Heung’s picture and he was named at the same time as Chan Koon-Bak and Lung Ji-Choy. Frank, can you read Chinese? Do you want me to translate the relevant bit for? Nah, I don’t have the time..

According to our branch, jeong yim was the only outsider (meaning he was the first) when he was a 12 yr old boy in chan heungs camp. he became one of the greates students to come from chan heung. this is according to our story.

according to the chan, loong gee choy is the first outsider. and he was their most outstanding student of chan heung.

now, if the both of them claim to be the only outsider in chan heungs camp, and both sides name these two as “the” most outstanding student of chan heung. it is kind of hard not to think that they are not one and the same.

Brother Frank, when I read things like the above, I think you need a lesson in logical thinking. Just becaudse they don’t have the same surname as Chan and they are both good at CLF, it does not mean they are the same person! See, you are pretty good and I am pretty good too (I think), we don’t have the same surname and we both do CLF, does it make us the same person?

I hope I have spoken to your satifaction.

:smiley:

20

Frank,

Chan family record showed Choy Fook and GGM were one and the same person, so the story about Jeong Yim having studied with GGM is really saying Jeong Yim only studied CLF and nothing else. Get it?

:wink: