question-
where did he get all those manuscripts, and were they all written by chan heung?
i want manuscripts like that…
and the forms, ba gua, tai ji, etc. what are they like in Chan Family CLF?
The scripts were mostly written by first and second generation indoor students. DFW got them from Hu Yuen Chou and Wong Gong (Hong Kong) and from Chan Sun Chui (King Mui Village). If you look on the articles section on www.plumblossom.net then you’ll find more info.
According to his website, the manuscripts DFW got from Wong Gong originated with Chan On Pak (sp?) Chan heung’s eldest son. He has a breakdown of moe info on his sie (like ben Gash said). You can go to the Kung-Fu section and he has a list of a ton of his forms as well.
I know some don’t like DFW for various reasons, but say what you will he has dedicated himself to learning everything CLF has to offer, from as many sources as he could get his hands on.
actually, i believed dFW payed his way in. why would people who never heard of him give him so easily the treasured manuscripts of their respective branches? why? who is doc fai wong for them to bow down and allow him access or to even make copies and thats all they are.
on http://www.masterspencer.org
master fred spencer has actual footage of the chan families records. go to the video section to find them.
if you let DFW tell the story, i know its going to change. all the CHan Family manuscripts were made from 3rd generation grandson Chan Yiu Chi, that family has said that and its printed on their site. the one interesting thing is why would one chan family have different manusripts than the place of origin?
In Kong Chow’s branch they even have a manuscript for the elephant, but the chan family in king mui doesn’t? why? but thats funny because i was speaking with my sifu last night and he said that in the King Mui area there are two schools of the same branch but teach totally differently. I was told they are the same branch but on different sides of the river. i don’t know what river. but they the same diret chan family line but different. how could that be if they are taught the same stuff? could it be that the original choy lee fut were just techniques and forms came later?
who knows?
hsk
if you look at master spencers “ceremonies” section there are some good photo’s of some well known masters who showed up to pay respects at chan heungs b-day.
those who were there were my sifu, jew leong, chan kit fong, fu hang ng, my si-hing bj, troy dunwood, lily lau, and so on. go check them out.
hsk
It could be that Chan hueng didn’t consolidate his teachings until he already taught some students. Curriculums change, it isn’t an issue until 200 years later when someone claims they have the “original” or “real” teachings.
I am not claiming that DFW didn’t pay his way in, or that he has put together the “original” CLF curriculum. After the number of years CLF has been in existance I am sure there have been additions and subtractions.
My point is DFW has spent his life gathering CLF material. Be it through his skill, his wallet, or what have you. He has dedicated himself to this art, something that garners my respect. We can argue about his ability/inability to fight, or do forms with speed and power etc…
I am simply saying his dedication to the art itself is impressive, whether you like him as a person or not.
I read that article and I have a big problem with it! During the late 90’s I used to train at a couple of Doc Fai Wong schools. At each school they said Doc Fai Wong’s teacher was Woo Van Chuck who was the keeper of the CLF system and had all the ancient forms and manuscripts. They even showed pictures. Then they said Wong Gong was the keeper of the system.
Now since Chen Yeng Fa has come out and the Chen family are saying they have the manuscripts of the forms, DFW has changed his story and says he now is getting training and forms from the keeper of the system. However, correct me if I am wrong, but don’t most of the Chen family see Chen Yeng Fa was the one that is the keeper of the Chen family system?
DFW needs to get his story straight.
Everyone one is a keeper of the system. What does it mean? What do you keep?
To me it is usually just a way to pump someone’s chest and is often put out by the students rather than the sifu himself.
So someone has a lot of kuen po books, so what if you can’t remember forms write them down or video them. Does it help one’s kung fu? No.
Problem is too many people get so into saying this guy knows X number of forms and this guy knows Y. Does it really matter.
Someone could have all the books in the world but unless you are very good at each set does it really matter?
This is not directed at anyone just the idea of having books meaning something.
I agree with CLFNole that “Keeper of the system” means very little in the larger scope of things, and is in general a trivial matter.
But, I understand Jamesbond_007’s complaint because it is an issue of controlling information and credibility through consistency.
-123
hey what are the contents of the chan fam chuan pu?
pictures?
i read on his site that his students say he went to fut san to “restore” and translate the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon manuels. what i want to know is who does he think he is to go to the mother land of our clf and “restore” anything. I won’t say this sifu’s name but we all know he called DFW the wannabe "Messaih(masaya?), so he really must think he is truly that special to correct the homeland.
i wonder if he will try to convince the fut san elders that he discovered green grass monk -after vigorously denying his existance-really did exist as Choy Fook.
thats so rediculous.
watch out he may learn some buk sing CLF and then claim to be the highest ranked BSCLF guy in the u.s. !
but what i want to say first here, is after my creation of the choy lee fut 3 families website i won’t be shocked if and when he tries to write an article in the magazine and claim he was the first to do so. but we all know “I” yes “I” -Frank McCarthy- wrote that **** first.
so don’t even try it;)
hsk
when it comes to DFW he leaves me a little confused.
I thought the chan Family had their own Manuscripts, but if you follow his website you will come to realize that Chan Yiu Chi had his kuen po, Koon Pak must of had his own Kuen Po, from dfw himself wong gong has his own set of manuels. but who’s kuen po does wong gong have? stuff he invented? i never realized the chan family -who is supposed to be one entity-have different kuen po’s.
also, I’m a little lost, how many keepers of the Chan family are there? i thought it was supposed to be Chan Yong Fa, but in the king mui branch DFW says there is a keeper of the style there. so who then would be the true successor of the Chan Family Choy Lee Fut? the one in china? or the one in australia?
what’s interesting is that DFW shows the wong gong branch of clf having “a” elephant Kuen po, but once again, if wong gong is of the chan family branch in kong chow, why doesn’t the chan family teach an elephant form? or did DFW just share it with wong gong and wong gong wrote up a kuen po to it?
dfw makes me dizzy
What is kuen po? All it is, is a book with the form or forms written out. Anyone can make one and that is what all involved likely did. It is just a way of recording what you know, so any of us could make our own kuen po. It is not like it is something written by Chan Heung or Cheong Yim. I don’t know what the big deal is. In the LKH line we a video kuen po that a few have that keeps almost all of the sets.
By the way Frank, I thing the Chan Family does have an elephant form because if I recall correctly their 10 animal sets are:
- Dragon
- Tiger
- Panther
- Snake
- Crane
- Monkey
- Deer
- Lion
- Horse
- Elephant
Peace.
has anyone ever seen a choy lee fut elephant form?
i mean outside what lau bun has? and i wonder if the elephant is a high up one in their lineage?
if it exists in their family i don’t think anyone has ever seen it or even have forgotten it.
but who knows, that remains to be seen.
hsk
Generally speaking I don’t think there is a highest form in CLF. That being said I believe the animal sets are said to be considered high level sets. I think it can vary from branch to branch but the elephant set would be considered an advanced form.
kuen po (chuan pu) can get complicated as hell
our chuan pu has no pictures except ba gua symbol and some footwork patterns. everything else is written out, and some of the stuff are my si gongs “notes” which you wouldn’t udnerstand unless u practiced our style.
i was wondering what clf chuan pu’s contain
frank, did lau bun leave behind any sort of chuan pu?
Htown,
no, lau bun never left behind any kuen po’s. it has always been expected for the student to completely memorize the forms. you have to remember Lau Bun never wanted to outside world to know about their gung fu.
so it is up to the current generation to document Lau Bun’s forms.
in the CHan Family kuen po’s there are some pictures of weapons and dummy’s but thats about it.
hsk
Sifu Frank,
Good posts. I agree, DFW thinks a little to high of himself. Personally, I am sick of all his self promoting and changing his stories. What is funny is when I went to his schools, the mentality was the more forms you knew the better at CLF you were. 
I mean, in DFW’s article he says there are like 167 forms. How can anyone learn a 167 forms and do them well. Personally, I have a hard time trying to practice all my forms within a couple of hours and I only know like 15 forms.
I know there is no keeper of the style of CLF, my point was that DFW always has claimed that he studies under the keeper of the CLD system.
On a different note, the core of the CLF system I study comes from John Lem. John Lem did not have many forms, but he did have many short forms and taught techniques. In most of our movements we have an elephant trunk that we use a lot.
Jamesbondoo7
if you studied with john Lem then you are DFW’s classmate instead of student, but i believe John Lem learned from lau bun as well. as a matter of fact, unless you are the person im referring to then I know one of your classmates named NAN S. who is from L.A.
Anyone who is a form ***** has no idea what it means to be a Choy Lee Fut practitioner. forms are nothing more than an exercise -albeit a blueprint to the system-but on the bigger scheme of things is only a stepping stone into making you a better fighter.
yeah i know what you mean when you have a good number of forms under your belt, and not having enough time on your hands to get everyone out the way unless you had all day to do so. then the other problem is not getting the sets mixed up and put this part in another set by accident.
but when it comes to dfw, he is a business man before a real gung fu man. he does nothing that won’t benenfit his name of put it up in highlights. He has come to a place where he believes, not thinks, but believes he is a CLF god.
see, i know a lot of dfw’s classmates, and they respect my sifu. They happen to huddle around him whenever he comes around. and usually i am with him, so i get to hear the stories first hand. Just like the Ng Ying Kid title he gave himself. I started asking around just to veriry if this was true or his own concoction, and their answers were…" dfw was one of those people who the seniors didn’t know his name, so they referred to him vaguely as the kid who always does Ng Ying. they didn’t really know his name.
but let him tell it, it was bestowed upon him like a title. Hi, Im dfw, the Ng Ying Kid. haven’t you ever heard of me? NO!!!
to tell the truth, i would love to respect the man. but my morals won’t allow me to. the man has done a great deal for CLF and even by spreading lau buns name. but when lau bun died, it is my feelings that he turned his back on his school to go out and make a name for himself. thats fine, but when he started making claims like he learned lau buns original clf and had to learn Jew Leong’s stuff to help teach the new students. but my problem with that is what did he think lau bun taught jew leong who IS more than 20 years his senior in the school?
Lau Bun and Jew Leong were high ranking members of the Hop Sing Tong. DFW is not . It is more acceptable to pass on the more original stuff to your tong brother and student than to some little 16-17 year old kid. he even went around telling people lau bun was going to make him his successor. guess that wasn’t true either?!
so what is true that comes from dfw?